Grizl:ON CF 7 - Puppy Delivered to Vet

[Stefan Mikes]

I live 14 miles away from them.

While there's no excuse for REI, I would treat it as a pretext for a nice 28 mile workout

Cat, you have got a very nice helmet with an integrated visor. What is the brand/model?

 

[stompandgo]

If it was never touched, agreed. Not acceptable. Cables do stretch, but not by six turns.

 

[Chazmo]

Maybe the cable is loose at the screw where it’s clamped and it’s slipping? But, certainly, agreed with the other guys. Get thee to the shop.

 

[stompandgo]

Maybe the cable is loose at the screw where it’s clamped and it’s slipping? But, certainly, agreed with the other guys. Get thee to the shop.

Another possibility if this keeps up.

 

[Catalyzt]

While there's no excuse for REI, I would treat it as a pretext for a nice 28 mile workout

Cat, you have got a very nice helmet with an integrated visor. What is the brand/model?

It is some obscure Chinese off-brand called 'Mokfire' that I got on Amazon. I did check Amazon to see if I could find a link for you but they are out of stock, and I can't find them at all online. The coolest thing about it is that it has a built in flashing light in the rear! (Though it is weird to charge your helmet.) I wish I hadn't let the visor get so scratched, but there's nothing for it... on the eMTB, I do crash through the bushes occasionally, and short of leaving the visor at home, there's no way to avoid scratching it. The magnets are outstanding-- when I don't need the visor, it's clipped backwards on the helmet. If I'm riding into the sun-- which often happens -- and my sunglasses aren't good enough, or if the wind is insane, I can remove the visor (with some effort) turn it around and snap it into place while I am moving.

I will keep hunting around and seeing if it comes back in stock, will let you know. It is a great helmet.

Another possibility if this keeps up.

It seems to be stable. I think I've got it.

@mixolydian12 and anyone else who is new to Bosch: I was dead wrong about the modes not being adjustable.

I'd gone off Sudafed for weeks, but my pharmacy was back in stock. While not considered a performance-enhancing medication, as soon as my sinuses were clear, my brain revved into high gear, and I had another look at the app, and got the puzzle-box UI to unfold and reveal more secrets: It DOES allow the modes to be customized!

There seem to be two different parameters you can play with: Assistance (I think it means the max power listed for each mode, but it's still not quite making sense) and Dynamic (the amount of power it delivers when you start pedaling.)

Initial values for both default to zero, and can be set to plus or minus 5.

The Max Power doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. All of my modes provide the full 55nm according to the readout, while the documentation says that Sprint provides up to 280% and Tour+ and Turbo provide up to 340%.

It sure feels like Turbo is already giving 280% even though it's only set to 5. Maybe I'm just used to a 40nm bike, but I don't see why I'd ever need more than Tubo, and even here, I almost never use it except on the steepest parts of the steepest hills.

Anyway, these can actually be accessed from the main 'bike' screen, and actually look like screen buttons in different colors. They are not where I thought they would be, which is on the screen where you select WHICH modes you want to use.

I set Tour+ to -3, we'll see if this makes it more like Eco. I'll do my usual fitness ride, and see how much power it uses and how much power I put out. I wish it showed an actual curve, but anyway, this will probably solve the missing power band issue once I get it dialed in.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Cat, now you are talking! I think I can help you understand the Smart System, as these concepts are similar (but not identical) to what Specialized does.

General concept
The mid-drive motor system measures your leg power = torque * cadence and translates it into the motor power delivery (I will always talk about the mechanical -- not electrical -- values). I will only talk about the regular modes: ECO, TOUR, SPRINT, TURBO.

Assistance
Your measured leg power input is translated into the power demand from the motor. It is what I call Boost or Amplification.
Let us assume you are in the preset called SPRINT, and that preset is set to 280%. Let us also assume your current leg power input is 100 W. A request is created so the motor would provide 100 * 2.8 = 280 W mechanical power if this is possible based on other parameters.

Max Power
This is an artificial cap on the motor power delivery. If a rider is a strong person and the Assistance is high, the motor output power can be capped to avoid premature battery discharge. In the previous example, the motor power request was 280 W. However, the rider could try pedalling harder and delivered as much as 150 W with their legs. The assistance request would be 150 * 2.8 = 420 W. If the Max Power is set to 250 W then the motor will never deliver more than 250 W, disregarding how strongly the cyclist is pedalling. This is the single parameter the most affecting the battery economy.

What is tricky here is Bosch seems to define the Max Power by Max Motor Torque. You need to understand that the actual motor power is Motor Torque * 6.28 rad/s. Therefore, let us calculate the Max Torque to be set for 250 W motor power cap: 250 / 6.28 = 39.8 Nm. So, if it is set at 40 Nm, the Max motor power is 40 * 6.28 = 251 W.

Dynamics
As you correctly said, it is related to the pedalling start, and it affects the e-bike acceleration.

Motor Power Curves
Whenever the e-bike needs to accelerate at low speed, the most power needs to be delivered. (It is also crucial in case of an e-MTB slowly climbing rocks). As the speed builds up, less and less power is needed. Once the e-bike has achieved its high cruising speed on the flat, the power is only needed to counter the rolling resistance and the air drag. Therefore, the power demand drops. Start climbing the hill: the e-bike velocity drops, and more boost is provided by the system.

The e-bike motor system manufacturer can provide different motor curves for different scenarios. An e-MTB has a big boost at low speed range while the boost can be shifted towards higher e-bike velocities for the road cycling scenario.

It is the easiest way to screw up the Motor Power Curve if the user doesn't know what they are doing. For this reason, Specialized never allows the user to access the Power Curves. It is a factory Road or Trail tuning, that's it. I don't recommend even touching the Power Curves in the beginning, if at all!

The Plus modes
I have no idea how Eco+ or Tour+ work.

If I were you, I would install ECO, TOUR, SPRINT and TURBO and only play with Assistance and Max Power.

Hope that helps.

 

[Catalyzt]

Cat, now you are talking! I think I can help you understand the Smart System, as these concepts are similar (but not identical) to what Specialized does.

General concept
The mid-drive motor system measures your leg power = torque * cadence and translates it into the motor power delivery (I will always talk about the mechanical -- not electrical -- values). I will only talk about the regular modes: ECO, TOUR, SPRINT, TURBO.

Assistance
Your measured leg power input is translated into the power demand from the motor. It is what I call Boost or Amplification.
Let us assume you are in the preset called SPRINT, and that preset is set to 280%. Let us also assume your current leg power input is 100 W. A request is created so the motor would provide 100 * 2.8 = 280 W mechanical power if this is possible based on other parameters.

Max Power
This is an artificial cap on the motor power delivery. If a rider is a strong person and the Assistance is high, the motor output power can be capped to avoid premature battery discharge. In the previous example, the motor power request was 280 W. However, the rider could try pedalling harder and delivered as much as 150 W with their legs. The assistance request would be 150 * 2.8 = 420 W. If the Max Power is set to 250 W then the motor will never deliver more than 250 W, disregarding how strongly the cyclist is pedalling. This is the single parameter the most affecting the battery economy.

What is tricky here is Bosch seems to define the Max Power by Max Motor Torque. You need to understand that the actual motor power is Motor Torque * 6.28 rad/s. Therefore, let us calculate the Max Torque to be set for 250 W motor power cap: 250 / 6.28 = 39.8 Nm. So, if it is set at 40 Nm, the Max motor power is 40 * 6.28 = 251 W.

Dynamics
As you correctly said, it is related to the pedalling start, and it affects the e-bike acceleration.

Motor Power Curves
Whenever the e-bike needs to accelerate at low speed, the most power needs to be delivered. (It is also crucial in case of an e-MTB slowly climbing rocks). As the speed builds up, less and less power is needed. Once the e-bike has achieved its high cruising speed on the flat, the power is only needed to counter the rolling resistance and the air drag. Therefore, the power demand drops. Start climbing the hill: the e-bike velocity drops, and more boost is provided by the system.

The e-bike motor system manufacturer can provide different motor curves for different scenarios. An e-MTB has a big boost at low speed range while the boost can be shifted towards higher e-bike velocities for the road cycling scenario.

It is the easiest way to screw up the Motor Power Curve if the user doesn't know what they are doing. For this reason, Specialized never allows the user to access the Power Curves. It is a factory Road or Trail tuning, that's it. I don't recommend even touching the Power Curves in the beginning, if at all!

The Plus modes
I have no idea how Eco+ or Tour+ work.

If I were you, I would install ECO, TOUR, SPRINT and TURBO and only play with Assistance and Max Power.

Hope that helps.

Well, the way I adjusted them -- lowering the pressure/cadence value that would cause Tour + to kick in sooner-- was interesting. This is a good setting for a fitness ride if I'm a little tired and need more kick from the motor, but...

I think your starting point is better. ECO, TOUR (not the + variety) SPRINT and TURBO. Take it back to stock, try to remember what felt wrong about it-- I think maybe ECO needs a bit more in the high end, to be closer to TOUR, but maintaining the option of low-power riding at low pedal pressure and cadence.

The dynamic thing is confusing; I'd like to learn how to use it. I wish you could save three different configurations and change them on the fly, while you're rolling, but I don't really NEED to be able to do that!

I passed a car in SPRINT because it was going too slow, blocking the road, and annoying me. It was very satisfying.

More experiments tomorrow!

 

[stompandgo]

I think your starting point is better. ECO, TOUR (not the + variety) SPRINT and TURBO. Take it back to stock, try to remember what felt wrong about it-- I think maybe ECO needs a bit more in the high end, to be closer to TOUR, but maintaining the option of low-power riding at low pedal pressure and cadence.

The dynamic thing is confusing; I'd like to learn how to use it. I wish you could save three different configurations and change them on the fly, while you're rolling, but I don't really NEED to be able to do that!

My take. Get the static modes dialed first. You felt best with them at this point. Enjoy the (BES2) static mapping. Then figure out what to tweak on each setting. Finally, dial the dynamic mode for one or more modes.

If I was blessed with a BES3 DU, that's just what I'd do. Spoken by a guy with an 85Nm BES2 on a 63# (unloaded) bike who only uses modes 1 and 2.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

More experiments tomorrow!

Does your bike have anything like Specialized's MicroTune? That assist mode starts at 50% (50/50). You then use the remote +/- buttons to dial in any assist level you want in increments of 10%.

Great for experimenting. Used mine to optimize my ECO, SPORT, and TURBO settings. Turns out, the stock settings work best for me.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Does your bike have anything like Specialized's MicroTune? That assist mode starts at 50% (50/50). You then use the remote +/- buttons to dial in any assist level you want in increments of 10%.

Great for experimenting. Used mine to optimize my ECO, SPORT, and TURBO settings. Turns out, the stock settings work best for me.

First of all, Bosch has nothing like Micro Tune, Jeremy. (None of my older Specialized e-bikes has it either, to be honest).
Secondly, the Grizl even has no remote! (The older Creo 1 had no remote, either)

 

[Catalyzt]

My take. Get the static modes dialed first. You felt best with them at this point. Enjoy the (BES2) static mapping. Then figure out what to tweak on each setting. Finally, dial the dynamic mode for one or more modes.

If I was blessed with a BES3 DU, that's just what I'd do.

I think I will have to tweak Eco and/or Tour slightly, but maybe when I switch back, I'll feel like, "Why did I even change these?" I think what Canyon is trying to do with this bike is that this motor is sort of meant for: Light bikes that should be as efficient as possible, using as little power as possible at cruising speed, but having a lot of power on tap for either steep hills, passing, etc.

I just figured out Flow's display for showing in real time how much power I'm putting in myself vs. what the motor is putting out. This will help.

It may be that 80% of the time, I'll use a single stock configuration, or lightly modded stock configuration. The other 20% of my rides, the modded dynamic modes, or modded static modes, have some very specific use-case scenarios, such as long ascents the vary between mild to moderate, or long stretches where I want to cap ECO mode power delivery to conserve battery-- like on the way to the Verdugos. On Seeker, for example, it was always a bummer when I had to jump from Eco to Medium-- I needed to conserve electrons, so some kind of super-eco or limited-medium would have been welcome.

Spoken by a guy with an 85Nm BES2 on a 63# (unloaded) bike who only uses modes 1 and 2.

I've been following your posts on The Beast! Quite the monster! (Is there a word for the opposite of a opposite to a 'weight weenie'?) Part of the trouble for me with even bikes that are much over pounds is just getting them out the door and portaging them over obstacles because of my hand issues. I can physically do it, but I'll feel it later, and not in a good way! But I'd love having that much battery reserve; just about eliminating range anxiety completely.

It was interesting to use Seeker, the 40nm 47-lb Motobecane f/s, to do a 15-mile round-trip urban commute yesterday-- I was just riding through some dodgy neighborhoods, and the odds of broken glass were higher, and the Moto's Maxxis Ikons are in their last 10% of service life anyway. It did NOT feel like I was suddenly driving a tank; it was the right tool for the job (only a few short, mile to moderate hills until I got back to my neighborhood!) I rode down Sunset Blvd. in very light traffic, no bike lanes, but no one was using the parking-meter lane, which had an extra three-foot margin between parked cars and the lane divider, felt safer than a lot of bike lanes! I was in a hurry, but most of the trip, I was fine in ECO, with a few stretches of Medium and maybe two blocks of HIGH. Pleasure to ride.

What I noticed: CF really does seem to reduce the hardness of vibration in a way that's hard to describe; there was some kind of high-frequency chatter in the moto that the f/s couldn't quite dampen out, though it did a great job, as always, overall. Also, in Medium, when you breach 20 MPH, you can really feel the assist drop out in some situations. On Nightmare, no matter what I'm doing, if the motor is on and and I exceed 28 MPH (which hasn't been that often) not only do I not feel the assist drop, it feels like the assist is still on.

 

[Catalyzt]

Went back to stock. There's a little gap between Eco and Tour, but I did seem to use roughly 10% less battery power, and my own output was not much greater.

I might add a little bump to the top end of Tour, as the gap between Tour and Sprint is a bit larger than I'd like.

It's an interesting setup having this much control over power delivery. If I adjust the settings so that I use roughly the same amount of physical effort as the eMTB, I could probably get 20% more range than the eMTB, and from a smaller battery. But if I want a less-demanding experience, or just want to go faster, I will wind up with at least 20% less range than the eMTB.

"With great power comes great responsibility." To me, 55nm, at least with this motor, is a LOT of power. The more I get used to the bike, the less interested I am in Turbo.

 

[stompandgo]

I'd say that you're getting it. The temptation to fiddle can be overwhelming at times.

If you dialed back Sprint a bit, would that accomplish what you want and increase range a tick?

If I could adjust my DU, I would back off Tour a bit down low. Dragstrip starts are fun, but they eat battery.

 

[Catalyzt]

I'd say that you're getting it. The temptation to fiddle can be overwhelming at times.

If you dialed back Sprint a bit, would that accomplish what you want and increase range a tick?

If I could adjust my DU, I would back off Tour a bit down low. Dragstrip starts are fun, but they eat battery.

I may experiment with that. I'm using Turbo as my highest power mode, not Sprint, but I don't think Sprint would make much difference currently because I'm just using Eco, Tour and Sport for fitness ride, but that might be an interesting strategy for longer rides.

My estimated range based on local fitness rides is running between 38.7 miles with 3,727 feet of vertical.

Based on an earlier run which had more flat terrain, however, I got much better estimates. I think I estimated max range was more like 45 miles with 4,500 feet of vertical. 30% of battery was 13.5 miles and 1,350 feet of vertical.

That is quite a spread, but it makes sense: Multiple short, steep ascents over the course of several days probably eats more electrons.

The longest ride I would ever take locally, and that I'm planning, is 37 miles with 3,600 feet of vertical and involves two very long, flattish stretches so it's gonna be tight! A lot of it may come down to how much I can ride unassisted. I may run some tests, or do the first ride to a bug-out point 3/4 of the way.

The other variable is how much range I will lose from riding dirt. On the eMTB, it made almost no difference, but I have no idea what the impact would be for this bike, with 1.7 gravel bike tires. Max grade for the run should be about 19%, and those stretches are very short.

I do not think Brand Park Motorway, with its 29% maximum grade, is a good option for this bike!

Most reviewers are getting only about 16 miles and 2,000 feet of vertical, but they're testing at high assist, which makes sense.

I think I can make it. Now it's about staying in shape and waiting for a day that won't be insanely hot, and an evening that won't be 45 degrees at sunset!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Multiple short, steep ascents over the course of several days probably eats more electrons.

Headwind is yet another factor. Yesterday, I rode a familiar route with tailwind to stay with 2/3 battery charge. I was returning home against headwind and even if I used the same assistance, I returned with an alarmingly low e-bike battery charge!

I do not think Brand Park Motorway, with its 29% maximum grade, is a good option for this bike!

Definitely not!

 

[stompandgo]

What I meant was, instead of adding power to the top of one mode to bridge a gap to the next higher mode, drop the bottom end of the higher mode instead.

For range, you should have the option for the Power More range extender. It should fit in your jersey to keep your bottle cages free.

 

[Catalyzt]

What I meant was, instead of adding power to the top of one mode to bridge a gap to the next higher mode, drop the bottom end of the higher mode instead.

For range, you should have the option for the Power More range extender. It should fit in your jersey to keep your bottle cages free.

Hmm... the sx may have different parameters for adjusting than the cx. I can adjust:

Assistance (I think it means the max power listed for each mode, but it's still not quite making sense)

Dynamic (the amount of power it delivers when you start pedaling.)

Speed (top speed for each mode)

So, for dropping the bottom end, do you mean the 'Dynamic? of the higher mode, so, say, Tour will kick in with a bit less assistance when I switch from Eco? That would be a very interesting option.

Another thing that occurred to me: There are one or two nearly deserted trails where I typically see almost no one, but these are, I think, technically limited to Class I.

What I'm considering is, when I reach the trailhead, decreasing the speed limit for all modes to 20 MPH. This might help in the very unlikely event that I run into a ranger, some other LEO, (or another eBiker who is a stickler for rules). If they are on the fence between giving me a ticket vs. a warning, it might make a difference. I also can't think of any downside; there is exactly zero chance I will want assistance past 20 MPH on any of these trails.

Another thing that occurs to me: For longer rides, the remote might give me an extra mile or two of range, because using just the controller on the top tube, I have to hold the button down for three seconds. In some situations, this does result in me just figuring 'to hell with it' and staying in the higher mode a bit longer until it's easier to take my hands off the bars. Er... maybe that would add a half mile of range!

I have heard, anecdotally, that dealers on some Performance Line motors can remove the option for having the battery reserve extra power for the light. That might also be handy; I wish that was switchable in the Flow app... I'd bring a little 200 gram light that I could use if I got caught after dark on one of these longer rides.

And I'd love to be able to turn off the rear lights... I wonder how much power front and rear lights, respectively, consume? On a daily basis, though, I have to admit, having the built-in light saves me a significant amount of time and mental energy... having to find the removable light if I've used it to walk the dogs or something, or wondering how much charge it has left...

The range extender is probably in my future, yes! I could, theoretically, then ride the bike my full 41 mile commute to work, if I brought the charger. My budget is totally tapped out at the moment, however-- and I am a sucker for efficiency, so I'd rather avoid the extra weight unless I desperately need it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Bosch Smart System Mysteries Explained Once And For Good!

I have just watched an extensive video from a Bosch E-Bike expert (in Polish) and he explained everything.

Assistance Modes
Overall, there are 13 Bosch Smart System assistance modes. Exceptions:

• SPRINT is only available for SX motors
• CARGO is available for Cargo motors
• RACE is only available for Race motors
• LIMIT is available for S-Pedelecs (45 km/h or 28 mph e-bikes)

Assistance modes can be:

• Standard
  • OFF
  • ECO
  • TOUR
  • SPORT
  • TURBO
• Dynamic (only SX modes listed here)
  • TOUR+
  • SPRINT
• Adaptative (only SX modes listed here)
  • AUTO
  • ECO+

Assistance
The rider's leg power input is multiplied by Assistance factor to produce the output motor power. It has nothing to do with the Maximum Motor Power.

Standard Modes (Linear Assistance)
The Assistance factor is fixed for each mode:

• ECO: 60%
• TOUR: 140%
• SPORT: 240%
• TURBO: 340%

The motor power increases linearly with the increased rider's leg power!

The expert explained the Standard modes were his favourites as those left no doubt what the assistance really was, so planning the battery range would be easy.

Expert: "The Standard modes increase the motor power based on the cyclist leg power increase in the linear manner. What to do if ECO is too weak but Tour is too strong? Get into the Flow App, click on the Assistance Mode name and go to Assistance. You can increase assistance: +1, +2, +3... or decrease it: -1, -2, -3... Each increment or decrement means 10%! Say you are in 140% TOUR. Set -4 and your assistance has been reduced to 100%".

Dynamic modes (Nonlinear Assistance)
The assistance in TOUR+ and SPRINT means a steep motor curve. Whenever the rider increases the leg input power, the motor increases its output very steeply! Meaning, Dynamic modes reward the rider's effort but are heavy on the battery use.

The SPRINT mode is unique to SX motor. It rewards a high cadence. Pedal slowly and you'll get a little assistance. Pedal as fast as Lance Armstrong and you will get the MAXIMUM motor power.
SPRINT is the only SX mode to get to the absolute max power of the motor.

Expert: "Hey, e-gravel cyclist! See a steep hill ahead? DOWNSHIFT then start pedalling fast like a madman! The e-bike will literally lift you onto the summit!"

Adaptative modes

• ECO+ is to conserve the battery charge. Ride on the flat in light terrain and the motor won't even engage! Enter a hill; the motor starts working! You do not need to switch between ECO and OFF on the ride!
• AUTO is the most advanced assistance mode. It is detecting a constant speed of the e-bike and adjusts the assistance to maintain that speed. Start the climb: the assistance will increase. Get a headwind: the assistance will increase, too. All to help the rider maintain a constant speed. Not the most economical of the modes.

Range Control
After 7 years (since Specialized had Smart Control), Bosch introduced Range Control
Go to Flow App. Go to Navigation. Define the route. Define the Battery % remaining post ride. The assistance will be automatically controlled, so you are guaranteed to reach your destination still on the battery.

Dynamics and Speed
The expert didn't discuss those matters at all as they were non-essential.

@Catalyzt: please acknowledge you have read and understood this

 

[stompandgo]

I asked a question in the other thread where you posted this, so I'll keep it there.