Grizl:ON CF 7 - Puppy Delivered to Vet

[Stefan Mikes]

Flow is annoying in one respect: It says, "You may be riding in places where your bike is not legal." This is in my own neighborhood! Maybe because there is one dead-end street that is technically a private street? My neighbors absolutely don't care. We wave and shout hello.

Them Germans!

This is the reality we all started with, and I can live with it. After a steep climb, I may have only 20% battery, but whether I know whether it's 22% or 18% may not matter that much in terms of whether or not I can make it home! Wind, my own exhaustion, etc. will be such significant factors that the granular detail does not matter to me so much.

My situation is very different from yours, as I can 1) Adjust the assistance levels at the granular level (in 5% decrements/increments) 2) Replace the Range Extender. Yesterday, I was some 8 km from home, and it was 9% for the main battery and 12% for the first Range Extender (in Specialized terms, it was 15% total charge). If the total battery charge goes below 10%, the motor goes in the "derated" mode and becomes very slow. Also, either of the batteries may cut off when it is individually below 10%. I had a climb ahead. Took no chance as I would lose the assistance right on the climb, so replaced the Range Extender in advance. Now, I had 9/100% or 59% total battery in Specialized lingo.

Here is where Flow+ gets interesting, because it tells me that my average cadence is in the mid 60s, though I max out only in the high 60s?!

Please never trust the average cadence value as it never works in any system if you are coasting (Wahoo or Garmin would cheat, too). Only the current value of cadence (as you are pedalling) matters. Whenever I'm pedalling, my actual cadence is at least 78, and I try to maintain it above 80 but Wahoo reports it as 64 on average.

So maybe I'm really not pedaling fast enough to get max torque in Tour+. I wish it gave me in-the-moment cadence numbers, but this is helpful. I found this chart, too, though I'm too stupid to figure out what it means. Does it mean that I don't get more torque until I'm north of 100 cadence?

The text above the chart is misleading. It is true your legs provide high torque to the cranks when you "mash" the pedals, and it is a high value of cadence when you "spin" the cranks. However, the mid-drive control system is mostly interested in the leg power input, which is Power = Torque * Cadence. The proper way of riding an advanced e-bike is to use gears so your cadence is roughly constant and >70 rpm. You downshift to start the ride at a high cadence, and you upshift to maintain the cadence as you are riding faster and faster (this is why derailleur was invented in the first place!)

However, mid-drive motors become efficient at higher cadences (from 70 rpm up), therefore you shall never "mash" the cranks but "spin them".

Now, the infographics is crazy if it is true! It tells you that you should spin your cranks at the cadence 100 to get the maximum power of the SX motor! Nobody except some pros can pedal that fast on a continuous basis. Cadence 100 means you are in a low gear and spin the cranks like a madman! (My max cadence of yesterday was 109 because I downshifted too much and indeed pedalled as a madman for a short while I was overtaking a road cyclist).

The bottom line is: You can only get the maximum power of the SX motor when you pedal crazily fast, which is unlikely to happen.

 

[Base]

You could ad a purion 400 display

 

[stompandgo]

Bosch has a very nice phone mount with wireless charger built in. Does Flow (not +) give you cadence, rider power, and battery remaining data on your phone?

 

[Catalyzt]

Them Germans!


My situation is very different from yours, as I can 1) Adjust the assistance levels at the granular level (in 5% decrements/increments) 2) Replace the Range Extender. Yesterday, I was some 8 km from home, and it was 9% for the main battery and 12% for the first Range Extender (in Specialized terms, it was 15% total charge). If the total battery charge goes below 10%, the motor goes in the "derated" mode and becomes very slow. Also, either of the batteries may cut off when it is individually below 10%. I had a climb ahead. Took no chance as I would lose the assistance right on the climb, so replaced the Range Extender in advance. Now, I had 9/100% or 59% total battery in Specialized lingo.


Please never trust the average cadence value as it never works in any system if you are coasting (Wahoo or Garmin would cheat, too). Only the current value of cadence (as you are pedalling) matters. Whenever I'm pedalling, my actual cadence is at least 78, and I try to maintain it above 80 but Wahoo reports it as 64 on average.


The text above the chart is misleading. It is true your legs provide high torque to the cranks when you "mash" the pedals, and it is a high value of cadence when you "spin" the cranks. However, the mid-drive control system is mostly interested in the leg power input, which is Power = Torque * Cadence. The proper way of riding an advanced e-bike is to use gears so your cadence is roughly constant and >70 rpm. You downshift to start the ride at a high cadence, and you upshift to maintain the cadence as you are riding faster and faster (this is why derailleur was invented in the first place!)

However, mid-drive motors become efficient at higher cadences (from 70 rpm up), therefore you shall never "mash" the cranks but "spin them".

Now, the infographics is crazy if it is true! It tells you that you should spin your cranks at the cadence 100 to get the maximum power of the SX motor! Nobody except some pros can pedal that fast on a continuous basis. Cadence 100 means you are in a low gear and spin the cranks like a madman! (My max cadence of yesterday was 109 because I downshifted too much and indeed pedalled as a madman for a short while I was overtaking a road cyclist).

The bottom line is: You can only get the maximum power of the SX motor when you pedal crazily fast, which is unlikely to happen.

Super helpful, Stefan, particularly r.e. 'average cadence.' This is a new metric to me. Yeah, it would be nice to adjust the assistance levels a bit more, but it seems like there are just a few power bands that are under-represented. I feel like there should be some level of assist between Tour+ and Turbo.

Turbo is just the hell of a lot of power. It feels like way more than the TSDZ2B. It feels like more than the Shimano E8000 I rode on my buddy's Rossignol bikes.

Ascending the steepest hill in my neighborhood, it's almost too easy in Turbo, where I have to sweat a bit more than I'd like in Tour+. But it's interesting-- if I let the cadence or my power delivery or something drop when I shift down to Tour+, it's hard to get back to the warp-drive power delivery level in Turbo.

Does Flow (not +) give you cadence, rider power, and battery remaining data on your phone?

Oh, yeah, it does-- I just figured that out yesterday after my last ride. The app-- to me, anyway-- is like a Chinese puzzle box. You just have to keep tapping different random stuff on the screen-- oh, maybe a graphic of a bike, or some weird little bar, stuff that doesn't look like a button, doesn't seem like a 'hot' part of the screen-- and other modules just kind of unfold as if they were hidden in another dimension of the space-time continuum.

I haven't even been in the right mode while I was riding! There's a riding mode with a speedometer, so I don't need another app for that. Current cadence value IS available.

I'm not sure I've even finished exploring it. If I could dig into it deeply enough, there's probably a perpetual motion mode, a mode where the positive emotional energy of riding the bike is fed back into the grid of human experience so it decreases human suffering, directed energy beam weapons, etc.

 

[stompandgo]

You don't have a Sport mode? That should be in between Tour and Turbo.

 

[BlackHand]

You don't have a Sport mode? That should be in between Tour and Turbo.

He has Tour+ installed in its place. Only 4 active modes at a time

 

[stompandgo]

Got it. Can he swap Sport for Tour+ through Flow?

 

[Catalyzt]

Got it. Can he swap Sport for Tour+ through Flow?

I think so, I'm just about to check. But I'm not sure I should swap Sport for Tour+.

I think I should swap Sport for Eco, so my sequence of modes would be: Tour+ (dynamic), Sport (up to 240%), Sprint (up to 280%) and Turbo (up to the full 340%.

The reason for this is, incredibly, I think it's possible that Tour+ can deliver as little power as Eco-- and maybe even less power. So, Eco may be the redundant mode. ( That is certainly what it feels like, except on steeper stuff, where I can feel a TINY boost going from Eco to Tour.) Therefore, the most efficient mode may actually be Tour+, and not Eco.

I do not think it is possible to empirically get the answer to this question. The reason I came to this conclusion is because, after asking AI the same question six different ways, here is the answer it gave to my question as phrased: "what is the minimum percentage of rider input delivered by the Bosch Performance Line SX Tour+?"

Here's what it said:

In the Bosch Performance Line SX Tour+ mode, the support level is dynamic and adapts to your riding situation and effort. While the exact minimum percentage of rider input is not explicitly stated as a fixed value, the mode is designed to require significant rider input, especially on flatter terrain, to conserve battery life.

Based on the information available:

• The Tour+ mode provides "continuously incremented support" and moves "dynamically, automatically and smoothly between Eco and Turbo riding modes".
• The Eco mode, which is the lower end of the Tour+ mode's range, offers "low support with up to 60% rider power for greater range".

This implies that the motor's assistance in Tour+ can go down to a level that is comparable to or potentially even less than what the Eco mode provides when the rider is pedaling lightly or on flat ground. (Italics mine) The Tour+ mode is specifically intended for riders who want to exert themselves and receive assistance that complements their effort, emphasizing a natural riding feel rather than maximum power at all times.

Also, Bosch says that in Tour+:

You are supported at least as in Eco mode and receive at most the support of Turbo mode.

That implies the AI is wrong, you can't get LESS support than Eco Mode, but that the minimum support in Tour+ is equal to Eco.

In any event, the way I'm riding, here are some local fitness rides:

Off: 1.1 miles
Eco: 1.3 miles
Tour+: 1.4 miles
Sprint .5 miles
Turbo: 515 feet

Total: 4.5 miles with 728 feet of vertical.

Another is:

Off: 1 mile
Eco: 1.8 miles
Tour+: .9 miles
Sprint .2 miles
Turbo: 36 feet

Total 4.1 miles with 480 feet of vertical.

Will substituting Tour+ for Eco decrease my range noticeably? I don't think so; maybe a little. The way that mode is tuned now, when it gets a bit steep, I kind of have to to bump up to Sprint anyway. If I had Eco+ or could tune any of these modes, it would be a different situation.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Catalyzt, please take no offence: Is there anything wrong with you? Did you say 280%?

• My base assistance on a 37 lb Vado SL is 108%, and my "Gravel Group Ride" setting is 144%. The max motor power is 240 W. I can ride with healthy gravel cyclists in a group with these settings!
• My default assistance on a 58 lbs Vado 6.0 is 128%, and the middle assistance is 192%. The max motor power is 520 W.

I suffer atherosclerosis of legs, and that makes my legs irreparably weak. Your Grizl is 35 lbs and I assume the normal maximum power of your motor is 345 W (unless you pedal at 100 rpm or above). Are you more disabled than I am? Or, do you put the excessive assistance to "ride fast like them roadies"? Your Grizl is a gravel, not a road racing e-bike!

Also, please never assess the range for very short rides. It requires several 25 mi minimum rides to determine the range at different assistance modes.

 

[Catalyzt]

Catalyzt, please take no offence: Is there anything wrong with you? Did you say 280%?

• My base assistance on a 37 lb Vado SL is 108%, and my "Gravel Group Ride" setting is 144%. The max motor power is 240 W. I can ride with healthy gravel cyclists in a group with these settings!
• My default assistance on a 58 lbs Vado 6.0 is 128%, and the middle assistance is 192%. The max motor power is 520 W.

I suffer atherosclerosis of legs, and that makes my legs irreparably weak. Your Grizl is 35 lbs and I assume the normal maximum power of your motor is 345 W (unless you pedal at 100 rpm or above). Are you more disabled than I am? Or, do you put the excessive assistance to "ride fast like them roadies"? Your Grizl is a gravel, not a road racing e-bike!

Also, please never assess the range for very short rides. It requires several 25 mi minimum rides to determine the range at different assistance modes.

But Stefan, I think we are on very different terrain! (And yes, I am going faster, probably.)

How much vertical do you do in a 4 mile ride? I am doing 480 and 725 feet of vertical in a relatively short distance. I

For reference, Eco total assistance is 60%, Tour base assistance seems to be 60%. This is what I'm using for most of those short steep rides I posted.

60% is less than half of your gravel group ride assistance. Sure, I do use 280% for very short periods, and sometimes even 340%-- for maybe 100 to 500 feet here and there, but very infrequently. That is why I posted those numbers from those two rides.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

True. You seem to live in the mountains? What are the climb grades, typically?
I hope you go OFF when descending? This is the only way (or, just coasting) to ensure a good range in high mountains.

 

[Catalyzt]

True. You seem to live in the mountains? What are the climb grades, typically?
I hope you go OFF when descending? This is the only way (or, just coasting) to ensure a good range in high mountains.

I need to find a good tool to calculate the grades! Most of them are just steep. A few, however, have sections that are pretty ridiculous. When I was younger, I couldn't go up them, even serpentine, on an acoustic bike because the front wheel would lift up and I'd lose cadence in granny gear.

Yes, I coast or turn off when descending. In a very rare situation, I might kick out of a turn with a little power, just for fun, but not usually.

I finally broke 30 MPH later this week, yow! that bike handles-- but it's twitchy! Sticks to the road, but tiny movements of the handlebars or all that's needed to just flick it away from a crack in the road. Takes getting used to, coming from a 47 lb eMTB. Cornering feels completely different-- and I liked cornering on the eMTB, too.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I need to find a good tool to calculate the grades!

RideWithGPS

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

p

RideWithGPS

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big RideWithGPS fan — just not for its grade accuracy.

I do like the way it shows grades on the elevation profile after the ride. But no real-time grades.

And I've confirmed with an inclinometer that the max grades it reports on a climb are consistently too low — often by several percentage points. At least in my hilly topography.

But I think you can generally trust it when it indicates that one pitch was steeper than another.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big RideWithGPS fan — just not for its grade accuracy.

Name a better app then

 

[stompandgo]

I trust my Garmin. On group rides, it was consistently within 1% of dozens of other riders with varying computers. Could they all be "off"? Sure, but not likely. I've also found the 840's altimeter to be much more responsive than the 830's.

Catalyzt, I need to learn more about the BES3 options. I would have thought that Eco+ would be more like what you are experiencing with Tour+, but I believe what you are experiencing. I found this footnote on the Bosch Performance Sprint DU description page:

¹⁰ Only available in New Zealand and the USA. Maximum values. Deviations possible, depending on the hub gear system. The performance values of this drive unit may be lower upon delivery. They can be increased and customised using the eBike Flow app. It should be noted that higher power values can lead to increased wear and have a negative effect on the range. The eBiker can activate/deactivate the riding modes via the eBike Flow app, the bicycle manufacturer or the specialist dealer. A maximum of four riding modes, in addition to Off mode, can be activated. Using the custom riding modes, the modes can be configured according to the individual needs of the eBiker, via the eBike Flow app. Exception regarding gear shift detection: eShift hubs

There are a few things in there that you might want to look into more. If Tour+ is doing it for you, great, but you might want to investigate how to customize drive modes, and if you can't, why. Canyon will know for sure. That's the thing about Bosch bikes. Their configuration is not completely up to Bosch. The manufacturer has options that they may or may not enable.

It looks like the Performance Sprint DU was designed to compete with the smaller, lighter DU's like the TQ HPR50. Midrange power (55nM) with a torque and cadence optimized power delivery. Relatively light weight (4.4 pounds).

 

[Catalyzt]

I trust my Garmin. On group rides, it was consistently within 1% of dozens of other riders with varying computers. Could they all be "off"? Sure, but not likely. I've also found the 840's altimeter to be much more responsive than the 830's.

Catalyzt, I need to learn more about the BES3 options. I would have thought that Eco+ would be more like what you are experiencing with Tour+, but I believe what you are experiencing. I found this footnote on the Bosch Performance Sprint DU description page:

¹⁰ Only available in New Zealand and the USA. Maximum values. Deviations possible, depending on the hub gear system. The performance values of this drive unit may be lower upon delivery. They can be increased and customised using the eBike Flow app. It should be noted that higher power values can lead to increased wear and have a negative effect on the range. The eBiker can activate/deactivate the riding modes via the eBike Flow app, the bicycle manufacturer or the specialist dealer. A maximum of four riding modes, in addition to Off mode, can be activated. Using the custom riding modes, the modes can be configured according to the individual needs of the eBiker, via the eBike Flow app. Exception regarding gear shift detection: eShift hubs

There are a few things in there that you might want to look into more. If Tour+ is doing it for you, great, but you might want to investigate how to customize drive modes, and if you can't, why. Canyon will know for sure. That's the thing about Bosch bikes. Their configuration is not completely up to Bosch. The manufacturer has options that they may or may not enable.

It looks like the Performance Sprint DU was designed to compete with the smaller, lighter DU's like the TQ HPR50. Midrange power (55nM) with a torque and cadence optimized power delivery. Relatively light weight (4.4 pounds).

Thanks so much, really helpful-- I will probably reach out to Canyon at some point, see if I can roll into REI and get the modes tweaked. But...

I'm still not sure I'm using the modes of power I have correctly, and efficiently. Yesterday, I tested what I'm calling configuration B (Tour+, Sport, Sprint, Turbo) and it was great-- but, as expected, Tour+ was a bit more assistance than I needed in some situations, used more power than I liked.

However, I learned things.

For example, I hit one hill yesterday at greater speed than yesterday by engaging Tour + a bit earlier, after I'd rolled down another hill and when I was at high cadence and speed, and Tour+ was fantastic-- I blitzed across the flat terrain much faster and charged up the hill without having to shift to a more high-power mode.

I think what would be perfect would be Eco+, probably with the default configuration (though it's not available now and I haven't tried it), Tour+ (with just a little tweaking so some of the power kicks in a bit sooner), Sprint (Default), and Turbo (Default).

But I should probably ride the bike for weeks and see what I can do with what I have to maximize efficiency and get just the power I need when I need it. My riding style really is changing; the relief of pain in my hands alone is changing my posture, my position on the bike, how I pedal, etc.

Another thing I want to test: Can I change the available power modes while I'm riding?! That may sound crazy, but it would be wild to use the configuration A (Eco, Tour+, Sprint, Turbo) to get to the Verdugos-- it would sip power-- and then, as I get near the steeper stuff switch to configuration B (Tour+, Sport, Sprint, Turbo), while I was still rolling, on the last flat stretch, with the motor off.

It's kind of a philosophical question, too. Do I just want Nightmare to adapt to my every whim, or do I want to listen to what she's telling me? Both, obviously. My goal is to get a relatively even level of assist for most conditions while maximizing range, which also will decrease wear on the power train and increase the battery's service life.

So I should spend some time adapting to the bike. I should ride the same route over and over, record the stats-- and watts of energy I'm expending...

--> (that's what Flow shows, right? That's not how much power the BIKE is using, is it?)

After I've done that for at least a couple of weeks, I can make a better decision about what I want to change, if anything. Also:

--> Is there a good visual way to make sure I've got the derailleur cable tension dialed in correctly? I think I'm close, but I'm still heat a little friction in first gear. Do I check for visual alignment? (I could browse YouTube videos, but I'd like to avoid the screen time.) Thanks!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

and watts of energy I'm expending...

--> (that's what Flow shows, right? That's not how much power the BIKE is using, is it?)

Surely Again, the average power is not the instant power (similarly to cadence). What average power is reported for your rides?

 

[Catalyzt]

Surely Again, the average power is not the instant power (similarly to cadence). What average power is reported for your rides?

Well, I've only tracked three so far! The first was 118, the second two were both 130. Not great generally, but not terrible, I guess, for a 68 year old guy with a connective tissue disorder (similar to lupus, but different antibody, slightly better prognosis.)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Your leg power is twice of mine. Let's talk ailments