Grizl:ON CF 7 - Puppy Delivered to Vet

[Stefan Mikes]

Flow is annoying in one respect: It says, "You may be riding in places where your bike is not legal." This is in my own neighborhood! Maybe because there is one dead-end street that is technically a private street? My neighbors absolutely don't care. We wave and shout hello.

Them Germans!

This is the reality we all started with, and I can live with it. After a steep climb, I may have only 20% battery, but whether I know whether it's 22% or 18% may not matter that much in terms of whether or not I can make it home! Wind, my own exhaustion, etc. will be such significant factors that the granular detail does not matter to me so much.

My situation is very different from yours, as I can 1) Adjust the assistance levels at the granular level (in 5% decrements/increments) 2) Replace the Range Extender. Yesterday, I was some 8 km from home, and it was 9% for the main battery and 12% for the first Range Extender (in Specialized terms, it was 15% total charge). If the total battery charge goes below 10%, the motor goes in the "derated" mode and becomes very slow. Also, either of the batteries may cut off when it is individually below 10%. I had a climb ahead. Took no chance as I would lose the assistance right on the climb, so replaced the Range Extender in advance. Now, I had 9/100% or 59% total battery in Specialized lingo.

Here is where Flow+ gets interesting, because it tells me that my average cadence is in the mid 60s, though I max out only in the high 60s?!

Please never trust the average cadence value as it never works in any system if you are coasting (Wahoo or Garmin would cheat, too). Only the current value of cadence (as you are pedalling) matters. Whenever I'm pedalling, my actual cadence is at least 78, and I try to maintain it above 80 but Wahoo reports it as 64 on average.

So maybe I'm really not pedaling fast enough to get max torque in Tour+. I wish it gave me in-the-moment cadence numbers, but this is helpful. I found this chart, too, though I'm too stupid to figure out what it means. Does it mean that I don't get more torque until I'm north of 100 cadence?

The text above the chart is misleading. It is true your legs provide high torque to the cranks when you "mash" the pedals, and it is a high value of cadence when you "spin" the cranks. However, the mid-drive control system is mostly interested in the leg power input, which is Power = Torque * Cadence. The proper way of riding an advanced e-bike is to use gears so your cadence is roughly constant and >70 rpm. You downshift to start the ride at a high cadence, and you upshift to maintain the cadence as you are riding faster and faster (this is why derailleur was invented in the first place!)

However, mid-drive motors become efficient at higher cadences (from 70 rpm up), therefore you shall never "mash" the cranks but "spin them".

Now, the infographics is crazy if it is true! It tells you that you should spin your cranks at the cadence 100 to get the maximum power of the SX motor! Nobody except some pros can pedal that fast on a continuous basis. Cadence 100 means you are in a low gear and spin the cranks like a madman! (My max cadence of yesterday was 109 because I downshifted too much and indeed pedalled as a madman for a short while I was overtaking a road cyclist).

The bottom line is: You can only get the maximum power of the SX motor when you pedal crazily fast, which is unlikely to happen.

 

[Base]

You could ad a purion 400 display

 

[stompandgo]

Bosch has a very nice phone mount with wireless charger built in. Does Flow (not +) give you cadence, rider power, and battery remaining data on your phone?

 

[Catalyzt]

Them Germans!


My situation is very different from yours, as I can 1) Adjust the assistance levels at the granular level (in 5% decrements/increments) 2) Replace the Range Extender. Yesterday, I was some 8 km from home, and it was 9% for the main battery and 12% for the first Range Extender (in Specialized terms, it was 15% total charge). If the total battery charge goes below 10%, the motor goes in the "derated" mode and becomes very slow. Also, either of the batteries may cut off when it is individually below 10%. I had a climb ahead. Took no chance as I would lose the assistance right on the climb, so replaced the Range Extender in advance. Now, I had 9/100% or 59% total battery in Specialized lingo.


Please never trust the average cadence value as it never works in any system if you are coasting (Wahoo or Garmin would cheat, too). Only the current value of cadence (as you are pedalling) matters. Whenever I'm pedalling, my actual cadence is at least 78, and I try to maintain it above 80 but Wahoo reports it as 64 on average.


The text above the chart is misleading. It is true your legs provide high torque to the cranks when you "mash" the pedals, and it is a high value of cadence when you "spin" the cranks. However, the mid-drive control system is mostly interested in the leg power input, which is Power = Torque * Cadence. The proper way of riding an advanced e-bike is to use gears so your cadence is roughly constant and >70 rpm. You downshift to start the ride at a high cadence, and you upshift to maintain the cadence as you are riding faster and faster (this is why derailleur was invented in the first place!)

However, mid-drive motors become efficient at higher cadences (from 70 rpm up), therefore you shall never "mash" the cranks but "spin them".

Now, the infographics is crazy if it is true! It tells you that you should spin your cranks at the cadence 100 to get the maximum power of the SX motor! Nobody except some pros can pedal that fast on a continuous basis. Cadence 100 means you are in a low gear and spin the cranks like a madman! (My max cadence of yesterday was 109 because I downshifted too much and indeed pedalled as a madman for a short while I was overtaking a road cyclist).

The bottom line is: You can only get the maximum power of the SX motor when you pedal crazily fast, which is unlikely to happen.

Super helpful, Stefan, particularly r.e. 'average cadence.' This is a new metric to me. Yeah, it would be nice to adjust the assistance levels a bit more, but it seems like there are just a few power bands that are under-represented. I feel like there should be some level of assist between Tour+ and Turbo.

Turbo is just the hell of a lot of power. It feels like way more than the TSDZ2B. It feels like more than the Shimano E8000 I rode on my buddy's Rossignol bikes.

Ascending the steepest hill in my neighborhood, it's almost too easy in Turbo, where I have to sweat a bit more than I'd like in Tour+. But it's interesting-- if I let the cadence or my power delivery or something drop when I shift down to Tour+, it's hard to get back to the warp-drive power delivery level in Turbo.

Does Flow (not +) give you cadence, rider power, and battery remaining data on your phone?

Oh, yeah, it does-- I just figured that out yesterday after my last ride. The app-- to me, anyway-- is like a Chinese puzzle box. You just have to keep tapping different random stuff on the screen-- oh, maybe a graphic of a bike, or some weird little bar, stuff that doesn't look like a button, doesn't seem like a 'hot' part of the screen-- and other modules just kind of unfold as if they were hidden in another dimension of the space-time continuum.

I haven't even been in the right mode while I was riding! There's a riding mode with a speedometer, so I don't need another app for that. Current cadence value IS available.

I'm not sure I've even finished exploring it. If I could dig into it deeply enough, there's probably a perpetual motion mode, a mode where the positive emotional energy of riding the bike is fed back into the grid of human experience so it decreases human suffering, directed energy beam weapons, etc.

 

[stompandgo]

You don't have a Sport mode? That should be in between Tour and Turbo.

 

[BlackHand]

You don't have a Sport mode? That should be in between Tour and Turbo.

He has Tour+ installed in its place. Only 4 active modes at a time

 

[stompandgo]

Got it. Can he swap Sport for Tour+ through Flow?

 

[Catalyzt]

Got it. Can he swap Sport for Tour+ through Flow?

I think so, I'm just about to check. But I'm not sure I should swap Sport for Tour+.

I think I should swap Sport for Eco, so my sequence of modes would be: Tour+ (dynamic), Sport (up to 240%), Sprint (up to 280%) and Turbo (up to the full 340%.

The reason for this is, incredibly, I think it's possible that Tour+ can deliver as little power as Eco-- and maybe even less power. So, Eco may be the redundant mode. ( That is certainly what it feels like, except on steeper stuff, where I can feel a TINY boost going from Eco to Tour.) Therefore, the most efficient mode may actually be Tour+, and not Eco.

I do not think it is possible to empirically get the answer to this question. The reason I came to this conclusion is because, after asking AI the same question six different ways, here is the answer it gave to my question as phrased: "what is the minimum percentage of rider input delivered by the Bosch Performance Line SX Tour+?"

Here's what it said:

In the Bosch Performance Line SX Tour+ mode, the support level is dynamic and adapts to your riding situation and effort. While the exact minimum percentage of rider input is not explicitly stated as a fixed value, the mode is designed to require significant rider input, especially on flatter terrain, to conserve battery life.

Based on the information available:

• The Tour+ mode provides "continuously incremented support" and moves "dynamically, automatically and smoothly between Eco and Turbo riding modes".
• The Eco mode, which is the lower end of the Tour+ mode's range, offers "low support with up to 60% rider power for greater range".

This implies that the motor's assistance in Tour+ can go down to a level that is comparable to or potentially even less than what the Eco mode provides when the rider is pedaling lightly or on flat ground. (Italics mine) The Tour+ mode is specifically intended for riders who want to exert themselves and receive assistance that complements their effort, emphasizing a natural riding feel rather than maximum power at all times.

Also, Bosch says that in Tour+:

You are supported at least as in Eco mode and receive at most the support of Turbo mode.

That implies the AI is wrong, you can't get LESS support than Eco Mode, but that the minimum support in Tour+ is equal to Eco.

In any event, the way I'm riding, here are some local fitness rides:

Off: 1.1 miles
Eco: 1.3 miles
Tour+: 1.4 miles
Sprint .5 miles
Turbo: 515 feet

Total: 4.5 miles with 728 feet of vertical.

Another is:

Off: 1 mile
Eco: 1.8 miles
Tour+: .9 miles
Sprint .2 miles
Turbo: 36 feet

Total 4.1 miles with 480 feet of vertical.

Will substituting Tour+ for Eco decrease my range noticeably? I don't think so; maybe a little. The way that mode is tuned now, when it gets a bit steep, I kind of have to to bump up to Sprint anyway. If I had Eco+ or could tune any of these modes, it would be a different situation.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Catalyzt, please take no offence: Is there anything wrong with you? Did you say 280%?

• My base assistance on a 37 lb Vado SL is 108%, and my "Gravel Group Ride" setting is 144%. The max motor power is 240 W. I can ride with healthy gravel cyclists in a group with these settings!
• My default assistance on a 58 lbs Vado 6.0 is 128%, and the middle assistance is 192%. The max motor power is 520 W.

I suffer atherosclerosis of legs, and that makes my legs irreparably weak. Your Grizl is 35 lbs and I assume the normal maximum power of your motor is 345 W (unless you pedal at 100 rpm or above). Are you more disabled than I am? Or, do you put the excessive assistance to "ride fast like them roadies"? Your Grizl is a gravel, not a road racing e-bike!

Also, please never assess the range for very short rides. It requires several 25 mi minimum rides to determine the range at different assistance modes.