Grizl:ON CF 7 - Puppy Delivered to Vet

Hey @Catalyzt , is your front fork pumped up properly? It may be just what I’ve gotten used to, but that doesn’t look like a “correct” amount of travel to me.

Anyway, very pretty bike. I hope you can get your pedal assist dialed in. Just curious, but is it difficult to change on-the-fly? I have 6 assist levels on my fat bike, and I switch among them easily and frequently depending on the terrain. The settings for your bike sound significantly more complicated. Good luck!
 
Hey @Catalyzt , is your front fork pumped up properly? It may be just what I’ve gotten used to, but that doesn’t look like a “correct” amount of travel to me.
It is a 40 mm travel suspension fork. The initial sag, that is when Catalyzt just sits on the e-bike and rests his hands on the hoods should be 20%, or 8 mm (this is why there is an O-ring on the stanchion to check it). The actual travel on the ride might take up 80% or 32 mm.
I hope you can get your pedal assist dialed in. Just curious, but is it difficult to change on-the-fly? I have 6 assist levels on my fat bike, and I switch among them easily and frequently depending on the terrain. The settings for your bike sound significantly more complicated.
He has 4 active settings, which is a plenty. He can also select presets that pretty precisely address his needs. Your e-bike is very heavy compared, and I think you cannot change the preset values, Charlie? Catalyzt can.
 
Hey @Catalyzt , is your front fork pumped up properly? It may be just what I’ve gotten used to, but that doesn’t look like a “correct” amount of travel to me.
It is a weird fork-- none of my others have only 40mm of travel!

Having said that, it does feel super soft. This is how I like it because the arthritis in my hands is so bad-- but given the fact that it turned out that REI did not adjust the tension on my derailleur cable-- it's taken 5 turns so far, and I'm still not sure it's exactly right-- it's quite likely they did exactly nothing with the fork. I do like it soft, and it's not bottoming out or anything.

But I do notice that when I take in the Motobecane for a full tune-up, they do put more air in the shocks. The Moto's fork is now a little on the stiff side. So I should check the Canyon's fork, seeing as Canyon provided a pump with a pressure gauge.

I have noticed this for sure: It's been a week, and my hands hurt MUCH less. I'm having a lot less pain playing guitar, which is great because I've got four or five shows coming up. I'm wondering if the eMTB was a LOT worse for my hands than I thought. I imagined it was 20 or 30% of what made my hands hurt; maybe it was more 50-65%.

Anyway, very pretty bike. I hope you can get your pedal assist dialed in. Just curious, but is it difficult to change on-the-fly? I have 6 assist levels on my fat bike, and I switch among them easily and frequently depending on the terrain. The settings for your bike sound significantly more complicated. Good luck!

For me, shifting to a higher assist level-- which is more critical to be able to do quickly-- is no problem at all. I grew up riding a racing/road bike with non-indexed shifters on the down tube-- and pretty far down the downtube, at that. The pedal assist is a lot closer than that, I don't have to change hand position and lean way down to adjust it! So it doesn't feel weird.

What's a little difficult is shifting to a lower assist level. You have to hold the button down for three seconds; in some situations, that's a PITA (though it can easily take me 3 seconds to get cleanly into another gear on that old Raleigh racing bike.) So a handlebar-mounted remote control is definitely in my future. I don't feel like I need to do this right away, or even soon-- but it would be nice to know where I can reliably find one. They are available at some weird bike parts supply outfits; a few have great ratings on TrustPilot, but I've never heard of any of them.

If I lived someplace normal, the very narrow missing bands of assist probably wouldn't matter-- and they barely matter now, even with all these hills. The more interesting question is whether in the long run I will be more comfortable, get a better workout, and preserve battery, motor, and drive train life by riding a bit more the way the bike wants me to vs. just riding it the way that feels 'normal' to me.

I notice that when I do what Nightmare seems to want me to do, I'm getting a great endorphin and cardio boost, the kind I usually only get from surfing or swimming. Maybe she knows better than I do?!

It is very strange. I'm not getting less of a workout on my typical 4.1 mile 20-minute shortest-fitness-ride loop with 475 feet of elevation. It feels like I'm working just as hard, but completing the loop about 90 seconds faster, and feeling a better physical and emotional boost after riding.

Your leg power is twice of mine. Let's talk ailments :)

It is not a contest! (I know you know that!) I am deeply suspicious of these measurements, while at the same time I want to be open to the idea that maybe the instinctive way I ride is not the best way to ride. I do believe in trusting my own body more than apps, readouts, etc...

But what I trust is more the way I feel afterwards than how it feels in the moment. Stefan, if you're feeling good after your rides-- more clear-headed, lighter and better mood, more resilient emotionally-- that is probably more important than what the watts meter is telling us.

As a psychotherapist, I'm doing a lot more sports psychology recently, but I should stress: I don't KNOW that, it's not a professional opinion! Call it an educated hunch?!
 
You have to hold the button down for three seconds; in some situations, that's a PITA
Certainly is! Does it make sense (to you) that they implemented it this way? I certainly don’t get it, but I don’t really know how your bike behaves. I mean, I want (and have) quick and easy PAS level changes. Also, my bike has a throttle available too, which I understand is probably not available on your bike. Although, understood, that selecting less PAS is less urgent than selecting more. Still...
So I should check the Canyon's fork, seeing as Canyon provided a pump with a pressure gauge.
I was really only questioning if the fork was fully extended or not, Catalyzt… I certainly wouldn’t mess with it if you feel comfortable and have the travel you expect.
 
It is a weird fork-- none of my others have only 40mm of travel!
Alternative solutions:
  • Redshift ShockStop stem
  • Specialized Future Shock stem system
  • Cannondale Oliver Lefty suspension fork
  • other suspension stems
all have just 20 mm travel, and most of them work as a charm. While the MTB fork is mostly for traction control, all other including yours are for vibration dampening. 40 mm down below (yours) is equivalent to 20 mm high up. I'm glad to hear you feel comfortably with your Rudy!

It is not a contest! (I know you know that!) I am deeply suspicious of these measurements, while at the same time I want to be open to the idea that maybe the instinctive way I ride is not the best way to ride. I do believe in trusting my own body more than apps, readouts, etc...

But what I trust is more the way I feel afterwards than how it feels in the moment. Stefan, if you're feeling good after your rides-- more clear-headed, lighter and better mood, more resilient emotionally-- that is probably more important than what the watts meter is telling us.
As I can see my instantaneous power on my Wahoo (you can see in the Flow app on the stem-mounted smartphone), I am aware of my weakness that cannot be improved much. Your power figure indicates that despite your ailment, you can pedal almost as effectively as a healthy rider, and I am glad to hear it! Of course I feel fantastic on my rides. The main difference is I have to carry either a spare battery or several Range Extenders because I decidedly need a lot of assistance and my rides are pretty long (I'd say my proper recreational ride starts at 40 miles, hehe). The consequence is I need a pannier, and that would not pass had I a proper carbon gravel e-bike.
 
Been following along here since I just ordered this same bike. Does it ship with pedals? I know they’re probably terrible if so, but I’m curious if there’s anything in the box

Also, does it ship setup tubeless or it’s just tubeless ready?
 
Been following along here since I just ordered this same bike. Does it ship with pedals? I know they’re probably terrible if so, but I’m curious if there’s anything in the box

Also, does it ship setup tubeless or it’s just tubeless ready?

Yes, it does ship with pedals. They are supposed to be terrible, but I just find them unremarkable (and all plastic.)

As for what else is in the box: Too much stuff to list! You get a pump with a pressure gauge for the shock that may be fine for the tires as well-- I'm just about to test it. You get a crude torque wrench and a bunch of other tools, the charger, and a manual thicker than the Bible or Big Book of AA that has information mostly related to assembly instructions. I think stem spacers came also, and I lost them.

As I may have noted upthread, I brought my ski backpack, and crammed it full of seven pounds of stuff that came in the box, but had to leave the manual and come back for it later (in my car, just because it's 14 miles and not a super pleasant drive.)

Yes, I'm almost certain the tires are mounted tubeless. They're just getting a little soft now, about to pump them up.
As I can see my instantaneous power on my Wahoo (you can see in the Flow app on the stem-mounted smartphone), I am aware of my weakness that cannot be improved much. Your power figure indicates that despite your ailment, you can pedal almost as effectively as a healthy rider, and I am glad to hear it! Of course I feel fantastic on my rides. The main difference is I have to carry either a spare battery or several Range Extenders because I decidedly need a lot of assistance and my rides are pretty long (I'd say my proper recreational ride starts at 40 miles, hehe). The consequence is I need a pannier, and that would not pass had I a proper carbon gravel e-bike.

Ha! I think my longest ride was 36 miles, but that was with 4,300 feet of vertical including Brand Park Motorway, which averages 9% and has a section that is 29% per MTB project. I'm not doing that on a gravel bike! But I think I can do the entire spine of the Verdugos on this bike ascending from a different route.

Stamina is where the connective tissue disorder hits me. My surf sessions are only 20 minutes, too, at the beginning of the season, and top out at 50 minutes max. I have learned to stop when I feel I have 10 minutes of body boarding left... when I lose energy, it happens FAST, and I need to leave some power in the tank in case I get caught in a rip, or get held under, etc.

So on a 40 mile ride, I'm sure my power output would be much closer to yours!
 
You get a pump with a pressure gauge for the shock that may be fine for the tires as well-- I'm just about to test it.
Not. It is for a Schrader valve, and it produces a very little volume of air but at very high pressure.

Yes, I'm almost certain the tires are mounted tubeless.
I'm almost certain these are mounted with the inner tube :) Tubed setup is very fast, safe and inexpensive in manufacturing. Tubeless setup is too risky in the manufacturing. All tubeless ready e-bikes I know were delivered with a rim tape but with the inner tube.
 
Not. It is for a Schrader valve, and it produces a very little volume of air but at very high pressure.
Yeah, indeed, using the shock pump would be a terrible idea, per multiple sources!
I'm almost certain these are mounted with the inner tube :) Tubed setup is very fast, safe and inexpensive in manufacturing. Tubeless setup is too risky in the manufacturing. All tubeless ready e-bikes I know were delivered with a rim tape but with the inner tube.

That would be great-- maybe you're right! That means the rolling resistance will probably improve and weight will decrease slightly when I go tubeless! (Though it probably won't make as much difference as it did for the 2.2 or 2.1 tires on my eMTBs.)

The large seems to weigh about 36.4, makes sense if the medium is supposedly 35.2 or whatever. And that is with pedals.

Is there some way I can tell without taking the air out of the tires and trying to pull it off the rim?
 
makes sense if the medium is supposedly 35.2 or whatever.
It is. It is a published data, perhaps without pedals.
Is there some way I can tell without taking the air out of the tires and trying to pull it off the rim?
Shake the wheel with your ear near to the tyre. If you hear a gurgle of liquid then it is tubeless.
Why don't manufacturers install tubeless in the factory? If we even disregard other factors, the wheel should contain sealant. Already in 3-6 months from the production date the sealant would go dry...

Besides, there is a good way to make your wheels "almost as good as tubeless" without going through the pain of tubeless setup. It is the TPU inner tube, which is very lightweight, airtight and decreases the rotational resistance.

Please watch this programme before you ever consider tubeless :) I have suffered enough myself.

The best video to convince anyone to stay with inner tubes :D It went so easy for the man but it is not the same for anyone else :D
 
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It is. It is a published data, perhaps without pedals.
A few people have weighed them-- somewhere, I can't remember where I was that-- and if the medium comes in just a little over 35 with pedals, it makes sense that the large would be about a pound heavier. I'm not sure how good my scale is, but I'm seeing 36.2 lbs. w/ pedals (and reflectors, which I'm removing because of the constant-on rear light and front light, which acts like a reflector even when it's off.
Shake the wheel with your ear near to the tyre. If you hear a gurgle of liquid then it is tubeless.
Why don't manufacturers install tubeless in the factory? If we even disregard other factors, the wheel should contain sealant. Already in 3-6 months from the production date the sealant would go dry...

Besides, there is a good way to make your wheels "almost as good as tubeless" without going through the pain of tubeless setup. It is the TPU inner tube, which is very lightweight, airtight and decreases the rotational resistance.

Please watch this programme before you ever consider tubeless :) I have suffered enough myself.

The best video to convince anyone to stay with inner tubes :D It went so easy for the man but it is not the same for anyone else :D

I just haven't had a bad experience with tubeless so far, and grew up with tubeless. I'll have the shop do it in six months or so... when my wallet has recovered a bit!

My hands are too bad for dealing with rubber on rims, so I don't work on my own tires. I can barely sign my name three times in a row. It's astonishing I can still play guitar!
 
On the second thought... I understand you're unable to replace the inner tube yourself. As long as someone else would take care about it, the tubeless is not a bad idea for you at all!
 
The more interesting question is whether in the long run I will be more comfortable, get a better workout, and preserve battery, motor, and drive train life by riding a bit more the way the bike wants me to vs. just riding it the way that feels 'normal' to me.
I’m going to give you my thoughts on this. It’s just my opinion, but you really needn't adjust your riding “style” to accommodate your bike. I mean, it should really be the other way around, Catalyzt. Besides making adjustments to the bike to maximize your riding comfort (seat height, bar height/reach, various angles, etc.) an e-bike should just make things easier and provide more flexibility for you to go further and maybe even tackle new terrain that was daunting before, especially hills.

Of course, learning to use the bike’s power controller and figuring out your ride limits are part of the fun/challenge/frustration that goes along with this.

I’m a little concerned with what you’re saying that this bike’s PAS settings aren’t great for you and/or aren’t easily switched among. That, to me, will spoil the experience. A (short) press of a button, just like a gear shift, is all it should require to get you where you want to be in any situation.

Forgive the soapboxing, but unless you’re racing or something competitive, the whole point (for me, anyway) is to be on the bike, get a lot of exercise, feel comfortable doing so, and enjoy whatever scenery and varied terrain I can!

Best wishes. Hope you sort it all out.

Oh, and as Stefan said, don’t use your shock pump on your tires. For that matter don’t use a tire pump on the shock either. :)
 
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I’m going to give you my thoughts on this. It’s just my opinion, but you really needn't adjust your riding “style” to accommodate your bike. I mean, it should really be the other way around, Catalyzt. Besides making adjustments to the bike to maximize your riding comfort (seat height, bar height/reach, various angles, etc.) an e-bike should just make things easier and provide more flexibility for you to go further and maybe even tackle new terrain that was daunting before, especially hills.

Of course, learning to use the bike’s power controller and figuring out your ride limits are part of the fun/challenge/frustration that goes along with this.

I’m a little concerned with what you’re saying that this bike’s PAS settings aren’t great for you and/or aren’t easily switched among. That, to me, will spoil the experience. A (short) press of a button, just like a gear shift, is all it should require to get you where you want to be in any situation.

Forgive the soapboxing, but unless you’re racing or something competitive, the whole point (for me, anyway) is to be on the bike, get a lot of exercise, feel comfortable doing so, and enjoy whatever scenery and varied terrain I can!

Best wishes. Hope you sort it all out.

Oh, and as Stefan said, don’t use your shock pump on your tires. For that matter don’t use a tire pump on the shock either. :)

The controller may turn out to be a bigger issue than the power delivery levels. I do think the handlebar mini remote is something I have to get-- the simplest one is fine, it doesn't need to have a readout, I just need to be able to find a Bosch dealer who has it in stock, order it next credit card cycle (or the one after that-- I pay both of them off in full every month) and figure out how to install it. Just because I am used to levers way down the down tube doesn't mean that's a good idea to have to long-press on the top tube to decrease PAS long term! And just because it hasn't been distracting or dangerous so far doesn't mean it might not be in some unusual situation once I get out into traffic and terrain that I don't know as well.

As for riding style, it will take months to see how I adapt to the bike and the PAS settings, but here's where I am so far:

Let's assume that there are three configurations: Stock, Configuration A, and Configuration B.

I'm avoiding Stock, just because I think it's less efficient than Configuration A. Configuration A just substitutes Tour+ for Tour. Configuration B is Configuration A, but eliminating Eco, having Tour be the lowest power level, and substituting Sprint for Sport, (between Tour+ and Turbo.)

Configuration A is probably best so far; Configuration B is fun, but probably too inefficient.

If I break it down, there are two narrow missing power bands that I have to avoid in the Configuration A: One is between the 'top' of Eco and the 'bottom' of Tour, and the second is between the top of Tour and the bottom of Sport.

For the first missing power band, I think it's just a matter of learning, for example, when I'm coasting through a stop sign at very slow speed (legal here) right before a hill, to shift down even further, pedal at much higher cadence in eco, and shift to Tour sooner, if that's what the bike wants me to do, it's probably what I should be doing anyway.

For the second missing power band, I'm less sure whether the bike is 'right' or whether I am. This has to do with shifting from Tour+ to Sprint. It seems like when I am going fast enough, and my cadence is high enough, and I'm pedaling pretty hard, there's no problem. But what if conditions do not permit that, or if I slow down a bit because of a lapse in concentration, or fatigue, etc.? If I could downshift more smoothly, or differently, that might resolve the problem-- get to a higher cadence and power delivery, and Tour+ will provide more power, and I can make the jump to Sprint smoothly-- but I don't know if I can do that reliably and consistently. This bike has more power than the Moto, and I have to be more careful shifting-- a bad shift is louder, it's a bit harder to drop pressure on the pedals for a split second and move to a bigger sprocket.

Could it be that the derailleur cable still isn't tight enough? Possibly. It could just be my technique. That's why I feel like I need to experiment a little.

But if it turns out there's no good fix for this, that's where tuning might help, if REI can do it.

(In Configuration B, the second issue is eliminated, but I have to sacrifice Eco mode, and Tour+ is less efficient than Eco in some situations. Put another way, in Tour+, I don't work hard enough in Eco, the motor does too much work, and uses too much battery.)

In terms of doing what the bike wants me to do, though, it's hard to argue with how it makes me feel. Pain in my hands no longer wake me up in the middle of the night, I'm sleeping better, and in a better mood. I caught two important errors in mastering for our band's album, negotiated really well with the engineer, and I seem to be really on top of work for my practice, though my workload is lighter. I only need to meditate once in the late afternoon instead of twice.

It's only been a week, but you can see why I'm cautiously optimistic about taking the bike's advice, at least some of it.
 
In terms of doing what the bike wants me to do, though, it's hard to argue with how it makes me feel. Pain in my hands no longer wake me up in the middle of the night, I'm sleeping better, and in a better mood. I caught two important errors in mastering for our band's album, negotiated really well with the engineer, and I seem to be really on top of work for my practice, though my workload is lighter. I only need to meditate once in the late afternoon instead of twice.
This tells me that the bike's already doing a passable job for you. Which gives you plenty of time to sort the rest out from direct experience as you and the bike co-evolve.

Experience here includes serendipity and especially screwing up — both of which are generally better teachers than trying to noodle out all the details in advance.

One key guiding principle, however: May have been mentioned, but find out your bike's cadence band for peak motor efficiency and train yourself to use your gears and assist levels to stay in or close to the band as best you can. Then more of your precious battery will go to distance, speed, and acceleration and less to motor heating.

However you set up your assist levels, it should be done with that goal in mind. My Vado SL's max efficiency band is 80-100 rpm, which happily matches my own preferred band. I can really feel the power fall off below ~70 rpm, regardless of assist level.

The rest you can — and I think should — sort out by feel over time as you keep an eye on battery range.
 
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I think Cat you worry too much about the assistance levels :) Just downshift more frequently!

Ya, but the technique for that is different on this bike. It's not a trigger shifter, it's the weird move-the-brake-lever shifting thing. It's more convenient because I don't have to change hand position at all, but the 'throw' in the shift lever, it requires a big movement, and it is still not second nature.

I also tightened the derailleur cable tension another two clicks, but did it near the end of the ride, so haven't yet assessed fully the impact. What I have noticed so far: There was hardly any noise from the lower gears before, and it seems to be gone now. This may speed up the downshifts. Upshifts are very slick and fast.
 
Ya, but the technique for that is different on this bike. It's not a trigger shifter, it's the weird move-the-brake-lever shifting thing. It's more convenient because I don't have to change hand position at all, but the 'throw' in the shift lever, it requires a big movement, and it is still not second nature.

I also tightened the derailleur cable tension another two clicks, but did it near the end of the ride, so haven't yet assessed fully the impact. What I have noticed so far: There was hardly any noise from the lower gears before, and it seems to be gone now. This may speed up the downshifts. Upshifts are very slick and fast.
If you have hand/wrist issues, electronic shifting is made for you.

If upshifts are fast but downshifts are slow, the cable tension is too loose. Six clicks off, shame on REI.
 
If you have hand/wrist issues, electronic shifting is made for you.

If upshifts are fast but downshifts are slow, the cable tension is too loose. Six clicks off, shame on REI.
That is what I thought, it's what makes sense, super helpful to confirm this.

When I picked up the bike, they said to me, "If anything needs adjustment, like cable tension, just bring it right back."

I found that suspicious. Come on. How about get it right before releasing the bike? Look at my address on the receipt. I live 14 miles away from them.
 
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