getting a regular bike after my battery fails?

[fooferdoggie]

its nice to have a cleaner bike

 

[fooferdoggie]

a bit of a update. I can ride this puppy at least 3 days out of 5 sometimes 4. but I usually need the trek too run errands at least one day. but with the longer rides my thumb is becoming a issue with all the shifting. So I finally broke down and converted it to xt di2 shifting. not a cheap thing to do jsut the shifter kit is 860.00 then the 12 speed drivetrain I had to change over to. I used a sram cassette so I could keep from covering the wheel to a 12 speed micro spline freehub that would be 100.00 extra for this wheel. I will be converting the tandem over too this weekend. but the rear hub on it would cost me about 250.00 to convert it to micro spline.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Steve, I can't quite understand. Are you using a 12-speed SRAM cassette with 12-speed Deore XT Di2 derailleur? Does it even work? Care to elaborate?

My own experience with Di2 switch-shifter (either Deore or XTR) is negative. With the mechanical Deore XT shifter, I push a lever for downshifting but can pull the other lever for upshifting. My hand stays where it is on the grip (or, on the Innerbarend) and I can use my thumb to downshift but the index finger to upshift. With the Di2, I have to use my thumb for either way of shifting, and I have to push in either case. It forces my hand to change its position while shifting. The matter is even worse as the upshift lever is far behind the front one, making my thumb travel pretty long. After a long riding day, it is not only my thumb but the whole hand that hurts.

I admit I have not done a proper research prior to the conversion of my Vado SL. I admit I've been a big fan of Shimano and that affected my choices. It could be SRAM AXS if I learned more.

Unlike Shimano Di2, SRAM AXS pods do not pretend being traditional MTB shifters. They are just switches with large rocker buttons, so the thumb operates those buttons in the same plane, the effort to click the button is minimal, and the hand does not need to travel. With Shimano, you need to operate the shifter a similar way you do it with the mechanical shifter but you cannot pull the rear lever, making the product highly unergonomic.

If I could revert my actions, I might:

• Order a proper SRAM xD freehub body for my new DT Swiss wheel (with the 350 hub)
• Order a long cage SRAM AXS derailleur and a rocker AXS Pod as an upgrade kit
• Buy the least expensive 12-speed wide range SRAM cassette (as these are not serviceable)
• Learn to live with SRAM chains.

All the pain just to operate an ergonomic switch-shifter.

Done is done. I had crossed the Rubicon and am stuck with Shimano Di2 and its terrible shifter. Now I swear, had I known what I know now, I would not go electronic at all but just choose a mechanical Deore XT drivetrain. Or, go SRAM all the way if the electronics would be necessary to save my thumb.

Sorry for the rant. I'm sure Steve your experience would be completely different from mine and totally positive!

 

[Chazmo]

a bit of a update. I can ride this puppy at least 3 days out of 5 sometimes 4. but I usually need the trek too run errands at least one day. but with the longer rides my thumb is becoming a issue with all the shifting. So I finally broke down and converted it to xt di2 shifting. not a cheap thing to do jsut the shifter kit is 860.00 then the 12 speed drivetrain I had to change over to. I used a sram cassette so I could keep from covering the wheel to a 12 speed micro spline freehub that would be 100.00 extra for this wheel. I will be converting the tandem over too this weekend. but the rear hub on it would cost me about 250.00 to convert it to micro spline.

View attachment 216543

slick, foofer!

 

[fooferdoggie]

Steve, I can't quite understand. Are you using a 12-speed SRAM cassette with 12-speed Deore XT Di2 derailleur? Does it even work? Care to elaborate?

My own experience with Di2 switch-shifter (either Deore or XTR) is negative. With the mechanical Deore XT shifter, I push a lever for downshifting but can pull the other lever for upshifting. My hand stays where it is on the grip (or, on the Innerbarend) and I can use my thumb to downshift but the index finger to upshift. With the Di2, I have to use my thumb for either way of shifting, and I have to push in either case. It forces my hand to change its position while shifting. The matter is even worse as the upshift lever is far behind the front one, making my thumb travel pretty long. After a long riding day, it is not only my thumb but the whole hand that hurts.

I admit I have not done a proper research prior to the conversion of my Vado SL. I admit I've been a big fan of Shimano and that affected my choices. It could be SRAM AXS if I learned more.

Unlike Shimano Di2, SRAM AXS pods do not pretend being traditional MTB shifters. They are just switches with large rocker buttons, so the thumb operates those buttons in the same plane, the effort to click the button is minimal, and the hand does not need to travel. With Shimano, you need to operate the shifter a similar way you do it with the mechanical shifter but you cannot pull the rear lever, making the product highly unergonomic.

If I could revert my actions, I might:

• Order a proper SRAM xD freehub body for my new DT Swiss wheel (with the 350 hub)
• Order a long cage SRAM AXS derailleur and a rocker AXS Pod as an upgrade kit
• Buy the least expensive 12-speed wide range SRAM cassette (as these are not serviceable)
• Learn to live with SRAM chains.

All the pain just to operate an ergonomic switch-shifter.

Done is done. I had crossed the Rubicon and am stuck with Shimano Di2 and its terrible shifter. Now I swear, had I known what I know now, I would not go electronic at all but just choose a mechanical Deore XT drivetrain. Or, go SRAM all the way if the electronics would be necessary to save my thumb.

Sorry for the rant. I'm sure Steve your experience would be completely different from mine and totally positive!

I did expect the shifter to work both ways, but as you found, it does not. But I don’t usually shift that way. But I got the XT version, as you can somewhat adjust the button angle and tilt, and the unit slides on a track too. What hurts my thumb the most is a hard stop. So I have to learn not to fully push the buttons till they stop. Last night I was doing that, and it really helped.


ok I found out 12-speed stuff is pretty compatible between SRAM and Shimano, except the really high-end stuff. I got a $ 90.00 sram cassette, and it works well; one gear can get stuck a little bit, and the mechanic thinks it’s a compatibility issue. The solution, of course, is getting the new free hub and a $ 140.00 Shimano cassette. But I will see if I can live with it for now.


The tandem’s White Industries hub— the free hub is $ 200.00— and I have to have it installed, so it’s really expensive to change over.


My cassette has most of the cogs loose, so maybe they can be replaced if I can find them.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I did expect the shifter to work both ways, but as you found, it does not. But I don’t usually shift that way. But I got the XT version, as you can somewhat adjust the button angle and tilt, and the unit slides on a track too. What hurts my thumb the most is a hard stop. So I have to learn not to fully push the buttons till they stop. Last night I was doing that, and it really helped.

I do understand. My primary shifter is the XTR. The first attempt to adjust it ended with the lever flying off the shifter on my first long ride (so do not attempt doing it unless you know exactly what you're doing). The seller sent me a replacement lever later. As it took months, I used a Deore Di2 shifter meanwhile (I keep it as a spare now).

I can only hope that Shimano would release a new "latest & greatest" Di2 shifter in 1-3 years with the pull capability. Anyway, Shimano was the only brand with the push-pull lever capability in the past!

Meanwhile, I shifted the shifter away from my hand so I only access the tip of the levers when my hand rests on the regular part of the grip.

P.S. According to Bram Hoekstra, a Dutch bike mechanic on YT, SRAM cassettes are not serviceable as SRAM does not sell individual cogs. While Deore, Deore XT and XTR are serviceable (Bram said servicing the cheapest Deore cassette makes no economic sense while it makes a great sense for XT and XTR).

 

[fooferdoggie]

it looks like the shimano 12 speed cassetes dont replacement cogs except the xtr version. its hard enough to find the 11 speed ones. But on the tandem, being able to replace the smallest cogs was very good on the wallet as I used up two or three before the cassette was shot. so I will have to invest in the new freehub on the tandem. Hard to belive this is 860.00

 

[stompandgo]

You will be very happy with it.

If you choose to use SRAM chains and cassettes, you will experience some degradation in shifting versus all Shimano. However, if you've never had all-Shimano, you may not notice.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

it looks like the shimano 12 speed cassetes dont replacement cogs except the xtr version. its hard enough to find the 11 speed ones. But on the tandem, being able to replace the smallest cogs was very good on the wallet as I used up two or three before the cassette was shot. so I will have to invest in the new freehub on the tandem. Hard to belive this is 860.00

View attachment 216587

The smallest cogs on 12-speed Deore, XT and XTR are interchangeable.

860 dollar for a freehub is a weirdly high price. Could you tell me what your choice is?

 

[fooferdoggie]

The smallest cogs on 12-speed Deore, XT and XTR are interchangeable.

860 dollar for a freehub is a weirdly high price. Could you tell me what your choice is?

no 860 for the shifter kit. but the freehub for the tandem is 200 and however much it costs to install it. its a high end hub far more then we needed for the tandem but I could only find one wheel that would work.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Ah, clear now for the shifter kit.
FYI, a new custom wheel made with DT Swiss high end components and Sapim spokes (rated at 180 kg or 400 lbs) cost US$300 at a wheel builder company here (including taxes). As I asked for another freehub body, that part cost 80 dollar extra. What saved me some money was me installing the thing.

I admit I had a difficult moment when I dropped a spring (didn't notice it at first) and got scared for awhile

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Steve, here is the information from Bram Hoekstra, a Dutch bike mechanic:
"You are right about the Shimano sprockets. I keep a drawer of them for XT and XTR, and the small cluster — the ten to twelve unit — is the same part across XTR, XT and SLX, which is the sort of thing that makes a mechanic fond of Shimano. Whether I fit them is the arithmetic I do in front of the customer. Two or three sprockets plus my time lands close to the price of a whole Deore or SLX cassette, so on those I tell people to buy new; tinkering would not be doing them a favour. On XTR, where the cassette is several times the money, I service it every time and the saving is real.

Here is the irony, though. The cassettes most worth rescuing are increasingly the ones that cannot be rescued. SRAM say themselves that Eagle cogs are not available separately, because they are pinned together or machined from one piece — the exceptions being a couple of their entry-level cassettes. So the expensive one I complained about in the video gets thrown away whole, while the modest Shimano one I can keep alive for years".

 

[fooferdoggie]

You will be very happy with it.

If you choose to use SRAM chains and cassettes, you will experience some degradation in shifting versus all Shimano. However, if you've never had all-Shimano, you may not notice.

thats good to know. I think I will use these two sram cassettes up and buy new free hubs. I have one sunrise cassette I will try and return the extra sram.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Ah, clear now for the shifter kit.
FYI, a new custom wheel made with DT Swiss high end components and Sapim spokes (rated at 180 kg or 400 lbs) cost US$300 at a wheel builder company here (including taxes). As I asked for another freehub body, that part cost 80 dollar extra. What saved me some money was me installing the thing.

I admit I had a difficult moment when I dropped a spring (didn't notice it at first) and got scared for awhile

I had a dt wis hub on the tandem but we went through three velocity cliffhanger rims even though they are built to be very strong velocity told us we would beed really large tires to use them. So it was a battle to find a 36 spoke wheel with a wide enough rim that was tubeless. so got the real wheel. 750.00 I think.

Outback XL Wheelset, 700c, White Industries CLD hubs, 36H/36H

Wildness Awaits Our Outback wheels are designed for epic rides. For riders that go all-day (or night) and for whom “mixed-surface” means all types of trails and dirt. With 36 spokes, this extra-burly version is built to withstand the rigors of gravel-tandems or ultra-burly self-supported...

astralcycling.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm certainly not in your shoes, Steve. Good luck!

 

[fooferdoggie]

Here is a fast video for anyone who has not seen this in action. its a cool toy.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

"The electronic drivetrain creates as many problems as it solves"
Please be aware Steve that the Di2 "sleeps" when not in use. The derailleur wakes up when pedalling has been detected, and it takes perhaps 100 yards of riding before that happens. Therefore, please end your rides with downshifting! (Configuring the derailleur with E-Tube app is done in a special mode and does not require waking the derailleur up).

 

[fooferdoggie]

"The electronic drivetrain creates as many problems as it solves"
Please be aware Steve that the Di2 "sleeps" when not in use. The derailleur wakes up when pedalling has been detected, and it takes perhaps 100 yards of riding before that happens. Therefore, please end your rides with downshifting! (Configuring the derailleur with E-Tube app is done in a special mode and does not require waking the derailleur up).

I dont see that maybe one button press and its good to go. its all setup in the app. though I did not know you had to push the button on the derailleur to connect to the app after the first time. I thought it was always connected.

 

[fooferdoggie]

ok got it on the tandem all you need if your already setup with 12 speed is tools a 5mm wrench take off and put on the derailleur and the tools to take off and put on the shifter. and a cable cutter too. shimano even gives you a quick link since they are not reusable. You can adjust the setup without a phone but I find it far easier just connected it to the app and used that to adjust the shifting. I didn't have to touch any of the screws at all.

 

[stompandgo]

"Didn't have to" because it worked without adjusting the B screw and limit screws, or "it was dead nuts on right out of the box"? With the former, you can probably get shifting to work better. The latter is rare.