Fortnine study: Are electric bikes more dangerous than motorcycles?

[john peck]

What do you think?

I think bikes are definitely more vulnerable. More dangerous? The death toll of those killed
by an ebike is rawther small.

 

[Nycturne]

I try to stay on bike paths, sidewalks and trails and if sharing with cars I go on super high awareness mode. We are lucky here in Palm Springs to have nice bike paths and trails very close to my house. I would be hesitant to use an ebike as a commuter in a busy city if I was going to be going mano y mano with 2 thousand pound cars and trucks...

Same. I’m close to a bike trail network that could take me to work and back. And it would take about the same amount of time as it would by car, despite being a couple miles longer than the car trip which takes a more direct route. I’m honestly tempted to give it a try once some semblance of normal returns and there is good weather.

The problem is that I do need to travel along one arterial road to get to the network, and while it has an adequate shoulder in one direction. The other direction, in addition to being a hill climb, has multiple spots where there is zero shoulder and no sidewalk, forcing cyclists to merge into the lane in order to move forward. Cyclists on a 30+mph road like that one are taking a risk, IMO. Motor or not.

I trust myself. I don't trust the motorists around me.

Yup. I tend to assume other vehicles around me won’t yield right of way, even when the rules of the road say they should. It’s true often enough when I am in a car, especially with the nonsense I’ve seen at 4-way stops.

Next, you have these 750W/1000W or higher motors, throttles where you yeah, you just pick up 15/20/25/30+ mph very quickly that drivers and pedestrians are just not used to. These e-bike riders on these throttled bikes sure are good at going fast on throttle in a straight line, but coming up on a corner or turn, all of a sudden, all that confidence goes away and it shows.

This does tie into one criticism of the video I have, which is the seeming conflation of different sub-categories into a single umbrella. I understand it’s because the data we have on e-bikes is sparse, but that lack of data can be a problem because of how nebulous the category “e-bike” currently is outside EU regulation.

Some of the issues brought up equally apply to cycling, only at higher average speed, meaning higher likelihood of serious injury when an accident does occur. The study on the rate of serious accidents validates that thinking. But the videos of the crashes in Israel are showing folks doing things that are hard to do on an EU or US Class 1 e-bike. Some of them don’t look like they’d even be street legal in my jurisdiction under today’s regulation, and act a lot more like an e-moped. So I’m left hoping future studies can start teasing apart these sub-categories and give us a clearer picture of their contribution towards the risks we are seeing in the statistical analysis.

 

[Gordon71]

It's not the bikes but the cars that I see as a problem and that of course depends on the driver. I live in a very rural area and the roads do not have bike lanes. That simply means that no matter how far to the right I ride if a car passes me they have to cross the center line. Safe drivers will slow down and wait until until there is a safe place to pass. Unsafe drivers will pass on hills or curves etc. and hope for the best. Speed limits range from 25MPH to 45MPH in the areas where I ride.

 

[Gordon71]

It's not the bikes but the cars that I see as a problem and that of course depends on the driver. I live in a very rural area and the roads do not have bike lanes. That simply means that no matter how far to the right I ride if a car passes me they have to cross the center line. Safe drivers will slow down and wait until until there is a safe place to pass. Unsafe drivers will pass on hills or curves etc. and hope for the best. Speed limits range from 25MPH to 45MPH in the areas where I ride.

 

[reed scott]

It's not the bikes but the cars that I see as a problem and that of course depends on the driver. I live in a very rural area and the roads do not have bike lanes. That simply means that no matter how far to the right I ride if a car passes me they have to cross the center line. Safe drivers will slow down and wait until until there is a safe place to pass. Unsafe drivers will pass on hills or curves etc. and hope for the best. Speed limits range from 25MPH to 45MPH in the areas where I ride.

Same here in rural SW Texas. Very narrow poorly repaired country roads. They were narrow when freshly paved and now the edges are eroding so it's a very bad scene. I absolutely do not ride on them. I have lots of private dirt (rocky rutted and washed out from time to time ) roads to ride but I would love to have forest logging roads and rail trails to ride one day. Maybe if I can somehow get retired I will travel.

 

[BEC111]

I mostly ride my class 3 Turbo Vado SL on our local MUP where pedestrians, skaters, skate boarders and slower riders mix with packs of high speed roadies so speeds range from 2 MPH to over 30 MPH. Though I can occasionally speed up to over 20, my usual speeds are between 15 and 20. Plus pauses or stops for street crossings.

I do occasionally ride on local streets when running errands, but they are lightly trafficked and car drivers are very bike conscious. It helps I can go 28 in a 35mph speed limit zone and the streets are well paced and wide. It also helps that the sidewalks are MUPs which I use when there are construction or other obstructions.

It a helps that local laws require cars yield to bikes in crosswalks and when bikes take the lane. There are even street signs reminding drivers to yield. I guess it‘s good to live in one of the wealthiest counties in the country in a state that is increasingly both older (large retired communities) and younger (technologists and professionals).

 

[Gordon71]

Same here in rural SW Texas. Very narrow poorly repaired country roads. They were narrow when freshly paved and now the edges are eroding so it's a very bad scene. I absolutely do not ride on them. I have lots of private dirt (rocky rutted and washed out from time to time ) roads to ride but I would love to have forest logging roads and rail trails to ride one day. Maybe if I can somehow get retired I will travel.

That's true. I have a few nice choices in my area where there are no cars but I still have to share the road with cars in order to get to them.

 

[tomjasz]

I constantly piss posters off by reminding them that the Walmart bike they are kitting is unsafe at speeds much over 15-20MPH. IF the bike is equipped with disc brakes like Magura 4 piston setups all is well!

My stopping difference compared to my GTS250 vespa is abysmal.

 

[nickybcareful]

I ride both, a Haibike and a Ducati. Two wheels of either sort is pure joy. I think for both, safety is in the hands of the rider. Traffic is the ultimate danger. Especially for motorcycles, it's intersections and vehicles turning left (in the States). I have complete confidence in riding my Haibike. It will always have a spot in the garage as long as I can peddle.

The Ducati. It's gut wrenching. Whenever I'm off the bike I'm thinking 'this thing is going to kill me'. Whenever I'm on the bike I'm thinking 'this thing is SO much fun and firmly planted to the tarmac. Why would I ever think about sell it?

Well, because things happen and if it happens on my Ducati, it not going to end up well. I'll be 75 in June. While I feel sharp and fit, everything diminishes with age. I need to figure out when to say the risk is too great, and get rid of it. It would probably help if would stay off the bike!
Any insights would be appreciated if you or someone you know left the sport at the right time. Thanks

 

[reed scott]

I ride both, a Haibike and a Ducati. Two wheels of either sort is pure joy. I think for both, safety is in the hands of the rider. Traffic is the ultimate danger. Especially for motorcycles, it's intersections and vehicles turning left (in the States). I have complete confidence in riding my Haibike. It will always have a spot in the garage as long as I can peddle.

The Ducati. It's gut wrenching. Whenever I'm off the bike I'm thinking 'this thing is going to kill me'. Whenever I'm on the bike I'm thinking 'this thing is SO much fun and firmly planted to the tarmac. Why would I ever think about sell it?

Well, because things happen and if it happens on my Ducati, it not going to end up well. I'll be 75 in June. While I feel sharp and fit, everything diminishes with age. I need to figure out when to say the risk is too great, and get rid of it. It would probably help if would stay off the bike!
Any insights would be appreciated if you or someone you know left the sport at the right time. Thanks

For me the risk/personal safety equation lost all balance around 55 years old. I rode adventure bikes ( KTM ) and mostly in the country. It was the wildlife that made me give it up. GD deer! They're like rabbits here in SW Texas only bigger and more of them. I hated riding in town though as well. Sooner or later the bastages are going to get you and that was BEFORE everyone and their kid had a cellphone. Car and truck drivers see you ( unconsciously ) but they know it's only you on the bike that is going to be hurt. Most of them are so distracted they're on auto pilot thinking about a thousand things and texting to boot. The odds are against the biker ... always.

 

[FlatSix911]

Great topic, video and comments. Just by the nature of where I live, with more roadways then dirt trails, I ride my Haibike Full FatSix. I obey traffic lights and motor vehicle laws. But still, it's unsettling when a car or truck passes you while you are in your little 8 inch wide, county road, shoulder. I trust myself. I don't trust the motorists around me.

On a topic lightly broached in the video, I was pedaling back home the other day, Pear Tune speed controller energized and I was making 22-23 mph for long stretches. I'm just not at ease at those higher speeds with the tires (Schwalbe Jumbo Jim 4.0 with tubes and Tannus Armour Liners and at that, the tires are built with lightness in mind at 120 TPI. No DOT safety ratings or protocols to follow in accordance with standard Code of Federal Regulations with any of our bicycle tires. If so, I stand to be corrected); bicycle rims at 80mm wide and made of light weight aluminum, relatively light guage spokes, bicycle hubs and bearings.

Good point regarding the speed rating of EBike tires... Schwalbe has a special line of ECE-R75 tires rated for 50 kph
Home - Schwalbe E-Bike-Tires (e-biketires.com)

 

[nickybcareful]

For me the risk/personal safety equation lost all balance around 55 years old. I rode adventure bikes ( KTM ) and mostly in the country. It was the wildlife that made me give it up. GD deer! They're like rabbits here in SW Texas only bigger and more of them. I hated riding in town though as well. Sooner or later the bastages are going to get you and that was BEFORE everyone and their kid had a cellphone. Car and truck drivers see you ( unconsciously ) but they know it's only you on the bike that is going to be hurt. Most of them are so distracted they're on auto pilot thinking about a thousand things and texting to boot. The odds are against the biker ... always.

Thanks for your comments. You are exactly right about deer. There is hardly anyway to take precautions no matter how good of a rider you are. I have 38K on my Multistrada and 99% of that has been multi-day trips on twisty mountain roads. We ride in groups of 2 or 3, sometimes 4. I rarely lead, so I feel I have a little buffer against the forest rats.

Two years ago my riding buddy from Detroit said he was going to do the loop around Lake Superior. He said he was going regardless, but would enjoy my company. One of my most memorable experiences. It's just so hard to turn that chapter...

 

[Dallant]

Having ridden both motorcycles and bikes most of my life, the truth is that speed kills. Bicycles have many trails that are available so they’re not in traffic and distracted drivers don’t see either of them very well. Thus motorcycles are inherently much more dangerous, IMO.

 

[Gordon71]

Having ridden both motorcycles and bikes most of my life, the truth is that speed kills. Bicycles have many trails that are available so they’re not in traffic and distracted drivers don’t see either of them very well. Thus motorcycles are inherently much more dangerous, IMO.

There is truth to that except one has to ride on the road to get to the trails and that's where Ebikes are more dangerous than motorcycles. Motorcycles can at least maintain the same speed as cars so cars don't have to pass them. As I stated earlier when a car passes me on the road it has to cross the center line to do so and not all drivers will slow down to follow me until they reach a safe place to pass. I've had them pass me on curves and going up hills.

 

[Asher]

If ebikes had the licensing requirements that motorcycles did, ebikes would be vastly safer.[

It's not the bikes but the cars that I see as a problem and that of course depends on the driver.

Can't speak for where you live but this is emphatically not the case in cities, and I don't see why it would be drastically different elsewhere. New York City has seen six people die from personal ebikes and rented mopeds (Revel) in solo crashes in a matter of months.

'Only cars kill' is sort of true with pedal bikes going 20 mph or less, but above that, be it road bikes descending or ebikes/mopeds cruising, and a solo crash can kill. The industry doesn't want to talk about it, the riders think they're too good at riding to die at their own hands, and everyone else is mostly an indifferent bystander. At best, safety professionals and relevant academics care, and sometimes government officials. Speaking from experience from working and networking in the sustainable transport worlds.

 

[Dallant]

There is truth to that except one has to ride on the road to get to the trails and that's where Ebikes are more dangerous than motorcycles. Motorcycles can at least maintain the same speed as cars so cars don't have to pass them. As I stated earlier when a car passes me on the road it has to cross the center line to do so and not all drivers will slow down to follow me until they reach a safe place to pass. I've had them pass me on curves and going up hills.

Lots of folks rack their bikes to trails. I’m one of them and most are at least 10-15 miles away. Personally, of the 27 mile workout ride I typically ride, I do ride about 2 miles to get to the trail and it’s on the least used road I could find and I have a bike lane.
To me, motorcycles are more dangerous simply because of speed and they are flying around in traffic a LOT more but they both certainly have their dangers.

 

[Eband]

$ .02 more from rural NY area:
I've owned my Class-3 Moped since 1977 and a PAS E-Bike for @ 1 year. 'Always felt the 30+ MPH Moped was much more dangerous than the Motorcycles I've also ridden. Not so with the E-Bikes mandated PAS - 20 MPH max . Typical 40-55MPH local roads meant the Moped travels only slightly slower and cars need to pass over much greater distances than the typical 15 MPH PAS E-Bike's speed. As cars pass, riding on roads' edge at 15-20 MPH isn't quite as dangerous as moving over for cars' pass on the 30+ MPH Moped . I mostly ride E-Bike on rural backroads and rail-trails with their own set of cautions but thankfully traffic isn't one. All State and Private parks in region caution that only PAS - Class-1 E-Bikes allowed on trails.

I don't see much difference between Motorcycles and higher speed Twist-throttle "E-Bikes" - aren't they actually just electric motorcycles or E-Peds ? .

have fun

 

[DaveMatthews]

I went to the LBS to get a shock pump today.
On the way back I was in the left turn lane waiting for the light.
A doofus on an ebike rode in between me and the lane to my right. Between numerous cars.
As the light for us was still red, he veered into the crosswalk in front of me and crossed the road.
This was the action of an aggressive and impatient idiot.
Aggressive and impatient idiots will always die more often than the more cautious and careful among us.

 

[6zfshdb]

I ride both, a Haibike and a Ducati. Two wheels of either sort is pure joy. I think for both, safety is in the hands of the rider. Traffic is the ultimate danger. Especially for motorcycles, it's intersections and vehicles turning left (in the States). I have complete confidence in riding my Haibike. It will always have a spot in the garage as long as I can peddle.

The Ducati. It's gut wrenching. Whenever I'm off the bike I'm thinking 'this thing is going to kill me'. Whenever I'm on the bike I'm thinking 'this thing is SO much fun and firmly planted to the tarmac. Why would I ever think about sell it?

Well, because things happen and if it happens on my Ducati, it not going to end up well. I'll be 75 in June. While I feel sharp and fit, everything diminishes with age. I need to figure out when to say the risk is too great, and get rid of it. It would probably help if would stay off the bike!
Any insights would be appreciated if you or someone you know left the sport at the right time. Thanks

I rode my Ducati & BSA motorcycles and Trek conventional MTB's until I retired at age 60. At that point, The self preservation factor kicked in when too many close friends were being injured in traffic accidents. I sold the motorcycles and gave up riding my Trek's on public roads. I bought my first e-bike at age 71. Now at 74, I continue to ride it, along with my Trek's, exclusively on MUP's, trails, bike paths and forest access roads. Unfortunately, none are within a safe riding distance from where I live so I keep my bikes loaded in my vehicle for immediate use whenever I want to ride.
I'm in reasonably good health but age & joint issues have reduced my capability using my conventional Trek's. For obvious reasons, the e-bike has restored both my ability and enthusiasm for bicycling and I plan to continue riding off road for the foreseeable future.
Off road riding however presents it's own dangers and the possibility of injury, although reduced, is still present. Consequently, I avoid weekends and crowded trails. I ride cautiously, even more so when others are nearby. Mostly as insurance against mechanical & physical problems, I ride a bike with a throttle. Using it, I have a better chance of getting back to my vehicle should a problem occur.
With any luck, I'm hopeful these measures will keep me on my bikes well into my 80's.

 

[nickybcareful]

I rode my Ducati & BSA motorcycles and Trek conventional MTB's until I retired at age 60. At that point, The self preservation factor kicked in when too many close friends were being injured in traffic accidents. I sold the motorcycles and gave up riding my Trek's on public roads. I bought my first e-bike at age 71. Now at 74, I continue to ride it, along with my Trek's, exclusively on MUP's, trails, bike paths and forest access roads. Unfortunately, none are within a safe riding distance from where I live so I keep my bikes loaded in my vehicle for immediate use whenever I want to ride.
I'm in reasonably good health but age & joint issues have reduced my capability using my conventional Trek's. For obvious reasons, the e-bike has restored both my ability and enthusiasm for bicycling and I plan to continue riding off road for the foreseeable future.
Off road riding however presents it's own dangers and the possibility of injury, although reduced, is still present. Consequently, I avoid weekends and crowded trails. I ride cautiously, even more so when others are nearby. Mostly as insurance against mechanical & physical problems, I ride a bike with a throttle. Using it, I have a better chance of getting back to my vehicle should a problem occur.
With any luck, I'm hopeful these measures will keep me on my bikes well into my 80's.

Ah. BSA's! I used to drool over those, Triumphs and Nortons when I was in college. Very cool, but also very unreliable. Just like the 4-wheeled MGs, Triumphs , and Austin Healey's. Of course, they are all British.
You have taken the path I should follow. The e-bikes are great fun with the bonus of exercise. Unfortunately, this could turn into the case where the kids have to hide the keys to the Ducati from Grandpa.