Economic riding using TCD.

[Fredman]

I need some input here plz.
When riding my Vado 4.0 and looking for the most economic pedalling, it came to me to use the power/cadence combination on the TCD (i'm not interested atm in using Mission control)....the lower the Watts, the less power I use, thus the more i'll get from the battery.

I'm not sure about the best way to explain this. I tend to take the longer route when i'm speaking English...hopefully I make myself clear enough.

I'm in Eco and for example using 70W on a slight incline. Then I change to Sport on that incline (while using the same power on the pedals) and the Watts falls to say 60W. Then when I go to Turbo (still keeping the power on the pedals the same) the Watts drops further to say 50W. It seems i'm using less power by doing that BUT...
Given that Eco is 35%, Sport 60%, and Turbo 100%, i'm not sure whether i'm really using less power....
Am I or am I not?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Honestly, I cannot understand what you're saying, Fredman. The TCD-W gives the Cyclist's Power, not the Motor Power. If you increase the Assistance under the same riding conditions, you are more and more supplanted by the motor power.

The Required Motor Power = Cyclist Power * Assistance Level (fraction, such as 0.35) * Amplification Factor. For instance:

• Eco, 35%. Amplification factor of the 1.2 motor is 3.2x. With 70 W Cyclist power, the power required from the motor is 70 * 0.35 * 3.2 = 78.4 W
• Sport, 60%. Cyclist Power of 60 W. Power required from the motor = 60 * 0.6 * 3.2 = 115.2 W
• Turbo, 100%. Cyclist Power of 50 W. Motor assistance demanded = 50 * 1.0 * 3.2 = 160 W.

The data above indicate that if constant total power is the same to propel the e-bike under given conditions (say, 180 W), the cyclist would have to input the most of power himself in the Eco mode (and the least in Turbo) if the same speed were required.

Did I misunderstand your question?

Yet, economic riding depends on the second parameter, which is the Maximum Motor Power (to be set in Mission Control). That parameter puts a cap on the assistance the motor can give, thus leading to battery energy saving at the cost of either: a. Increased effort of the cyclist to maintain speed; or b. Decreased speed at the same effort. The Max Motor Power takes the most direct effect on the e-bike range.

 

[McCorby]

Yes, it seems like they are making the wrong assumption that the wattage displayed is the motor wattage, when it’s actually the rider’s output.

 

[Marcela]

You can turn the motor off and see what you are pedaling at then compare to the other settings, even on level ground it will give you an idea of what is happening.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You can turn the motor off

You mean, set the assistance to OFF, with the motor on to keep the display working

 

[Fredman]

Honestly, I cannot understand what you're saying, Fredman. The TCD-W gives the Cyclist's Power, not the Motor Power. If you increase the Assistance under the same riding conditions, you are more and more supplanted by the motor power.

The Required Motor Power = Cyclist Power * Assistance Level (fraction, such as 0.35) * Amplification Factor. For instance:

• Eco, 35%. Amplification factor of the 1.2 motor is 3.2x. With 70 W Cyclist power, the power required from the motor is 70 * 0.35 * 3.2 = 78.4 W
• Sport, 60%. Cyclist Power of 60 W. Power required from the motor = 60 * 0.6 * 3.2 = 115.2 W
• Turbo, 100%. Cyclist Power of 50 W. Motor assistance demanded = 50 * 1.0 * 3.2 = 160 W.

The data above indicate that if constant total power is the same to propel the e-bike under given conditions (say, 180 W), the cyclist would have to input the most of power himself in the Eco mode (and the least in Turbo) if the same speed were required.

Did I misunderstand your question?

Yet, economic riding depends on the second parameter, which is the Maximum Motor Power (to be set in Mission Control). That parameter puts a cap on the assistance the motor can give, thus leading to battery energy saving at the cost of either: a. Increased effort of the cyclist to maintain speed; or b. Decreased speed at the same effort. The Max Motor Power takes the most direct effect on the e-bike range.

Ha Ha...without understanding me, you answered my question perfectly. It's exactly what i was suspecting to....when the level goes up less rider input (W) is needed. Thank you for the equation. That explains it well.
I'm well aware of the watts being my input and not that of the motor though.
Without mission control the best way for me to see how "economical" i'm riding, is to use the power display (W)...or is there another way?

 

[Fredman]

You can turn the motor off and see what you are pedaling at then compare to the other settings, even on level ground it will give you an idea of what is happening.

I've tried that. With the motor off, it feels like i'm going against the motor. It has a drag that I have to pedal against....i'm planning to speak to the shop mechanic when I take it in for it's first service next week. Don't know if it's normal, but I don't like that. I actually can't see myself riding it with the battery off for a distance...!

 

[Nxkharra]

I've tried that. With the motor off, it feels like i'm going against the motor. It has a drag that I have to pedal against....i'm planning to speak to the shop mechanic when I take it in for it's first service next week. Don't know if it's normal, but I don't like that. I actually can't see myself riding it with the battery off for a distance...!

My Vado 5 has a drag also. They tell me with motor on and assist off there is no drag. Bike should ride like a normal bike. This is not my experience. @Stefan Mikes told me once there is a slight drag and I accepted that answer. He I think have changed his position and saying that there shouldn’t be any drag. There is drag with my bike.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

My Vado 5 has a drag also. They tell me with motor on and assist off there is no drag. Bike should ride like a normal bike. This is not my experience. @Stefan Mikes told me once there is a slight drag and I accepted that answer. He I think have changed his position and saying that there shouldn’t be any drag. There is drag with my bike.

Of course there is some drag, but all things considered it's very minimal from a wattage output for the rider. What you're really feeling is the fact that you're riding a 50lb+ bike with big heavy duty tires in an un-aerodynamic riding position. Those are the chief culprits.

 

[Fredman]

Of course there is some drag, but all things considered it's very minimal from a wattage output for the rider. What you're really feeling is the fact that you're riding a 50lb+ bike with big heavy duty tires in an un-aerodynamic riding position. Those are the chief culprits.

Brendon, I find it more than just some drag. It's a definite drag that almost holds me back and feels like it's slowing me down. It don't feel like weight nor wind resistance. Although i'm 63 I still feel like i'm a strong(ish) rider that's more than capable of riding a heavy bike against the wind. I can physically feel the drag resistance from the motor. It's almost like i'm working against it. It's not overcomeable for me, but it's definitely uncomfortable.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Of course there is some drag, but all things considered it's very minimal from a wattage output for the rider. What you're really feeling is the fact that you're riding a 50lb+ bike with big heavy duty tires in an un-aerodynamic riding position. Those are the chief culprits.

I'm with Brendon at it. My perspective has changed even more to support this view since I demo rode Vado SL. The 20 lb difference is so big it was actually very easy to pedal the SL just in its Eco mode (and the SL is far less powerful than the "full" Vado).

Fredman: The motor drag is just 2-3 W. The "wall effect" you are experiencing comes from the shocking difference of being assisted or not. Even 35% Eco makes it "2x you!" I had many rides together with my brother Jacek (lightweight strong rider, age 56), and no ride together was short. Once, he forgot to take the key to swap the battery on our long ride... Having left him with a single 625 Wh battery on my Giant Trance E+. (It was a mixed terrain ride: off-road, paved roads, dirt roads):

Over 75 miles with as much as 28% battery left! We had the average ride speed of 23.5 km/h (14.6 mph) and the net ride time was five hours and five minutes. How come? Jacek didn't use any assistance when riding on the road with tailwind... He says the Vado or Trance E+ (or Lovelec) all behave as regular heavy bikes.

Jacek riding unassisted on asphalt with mild tailwind. Note: The tyres here are off-road Maxxis Rekon 2.6"; these are really dragging! Also note how slim Jacek is.

The main question of you: The rider's wattage alone doesn't seem to be the only or the most appropriate parameter for economical ride but it helps. The more energy you input yourself to maintain the same cruising speed, the less power will be used from the battery (as my brother has proved). And... the slower you ride, the less energy is used by the motor, too.

 

[Marcela]

Those knobby tires suck a lot of energy. You can remove the battery and take it for a ride comparison on weight difference. Those batteries are heavy!

 

[Nxkharra]

Brendon, I find it more than just some drag. It's a definite drag that almost holds me back and feels like it's slowing me down. It don't feel like weight nor wind resistance. Although i'm 63 I still feel like i'm a strong(ish) rider that's more than capable of riding a heavy bike against the wind. I can physically feel the drag resistance from the motor. It's almost like i'm working against it. It's not overcomeable for me, but it's definitely uncomfortable.

I also feel like Fredman. I hear you guys loud and clear but....
the drag is really noticeable for my old legs.

 

[Fredman]

Ah well, i'm known to over react sometimes. Thinking about it, I do get a bit of a mental shock when I go down from turbo to eco sometimes. That shock is obviously much greater for me going to no assist then.
I'll test that. I'll use my vado and the wife's como 3.0 and take a drive without any assist...see how the mind adapts

 

[Fredman]

I tested both bikes out in the street (smooth and flat surface) and both has the same issue for me. "Issue" is maybe the wrong word, but it's the first one that comes to mind. Obviously it's the way it's designed and built, and tbh, it don't gel with me.
The resistance/drag of the motor is definitely the big obstacle to overcome. It's like the harder I pedal, the more the drag. I just don't seem to pick up speed....and when I eventually do have 'some' speed and stop pedalling, it feels like it picks up some speed then.
I'm by no means a weak rider, but constantly fighting it isn't fun for me.
It might perhaps work for the much stronger riders (on a level surface with the wind at their backs) that's looking for a proper workout, but i'm convinced this motors aren't designed to pedal without power (at least for 90+% of ordinary people buying an e bike).

What I also noticed is that even with the bike switched off, I still get that little burst of speed that the motor gives with a short hard pedal (the motor keeps powering for a few moments). That makes me wonder if some electronics/sensors (or whatever) are still functional when switched off.

 

[Fredman]

Still thinking about it...when i'm outa battery and it had a little button to push, or lever to flick that frees the motor completely from the drive train, I would pedal this thing all day long

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Still thinking about it...when i'm outa battery and it had a little button to push, or lever to flick that frees the motor completely from the drive train, I would pedal this thing all day long

That's not technically possible, as your crank doesn't drive the chainring directly but through the motor gearing.

It would be hard to convince you Fredman or Nxkharra it is not about the motor drag. Nxkharra owns a repair stand, so he could lift his Vado and turn the cranks by hand forward, with the chain removed (I did it). You feel no drag whatsoever! Either with power OFF or with the motor completely off.

If you guys could have a chance, try demo riding Vado SL (not saying it is a bike for everybody). It is a shocking experience to ride an e-bike that is by 20 pounds lighter than the "full power" Vado. SL owners say it is so easy for them to ride past the speed limiter, and the same is hardly doable on heavy e-bikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Fredman: Another question for you. You say Mission Control is out of question in your case, and I respect that. Is it you cannot use it or don't want to use it? If you can, just use the app to tune the Assistance and Max Power. You could find a sweet point at which your Vado still feels rideable but offers significantly less support. It could be 25/25 setting for Eco. You would ride slower at such a setting but would be positively surprised how much range you would gain. I was using similar setting to ride together with my "acoustic" friend. The range increased dramatically!

 

[McCorby]

I tested both bikes out in the street (smooth and flat surface) and both has the same issue for me. "Issue" is maybe the wrong word, but it's the first one that comes to mind. Obviously it's the way it's designed and built, and tbh, it don't gel with me.
The resistance/drag of the motor is definitely the big obstacle to overcome. It's like the harder I pedal, the more the drag. I just don't seem to pick up speed....and when I eventually do have 'some' speed and stop pedalling, it feels like it picks up some speed then.
I'm by no means a weak rider, but constantly fighting it isn't fun for me.
It might perhaps work for the much stronger riders (on a level surface with the wind at their backs) that's looking for a proper workout, but i'm convinced this motors aren't designed to pedal without power (at least for 90+% of ordinary people buying an e bike).

Do you mind me asking why you purchased an eBike if you plan to ride it often with it turned off? You would have been much better off with a lightweight non-eBike.

What I also noticed is that even with the bike switched off, I still get that little burst of speed that the motor gives with a short hard pedal (the motor keeps powering for a few moments). That makes me wonder if some electronics/sensors (or whatever) are still functional when switched off.

I’m sorry, but I do not think this is possible. If the bike is completely turned off, or it’s powered on but with the PAS turned off, the motor will not provide power. If it is, something is wrong and you should have it checked out ASAP.

 

[Fredman]

Do you mind me asking why you purchased an eBike if you plan to ride it often with it turned off? You would have been much better off with a lightweight non-eBike.

I have no plans to ride it often turned off...that would be defeating the object. The whole talk so far revolves around low or no battery.

I’m sorry, but I do not think this is possible. If the bike is completely turned off, or it’s powered on but with the PAS turned off, the motor will not provide power. If it is, something is wrong and you should have it checked out ASAP

That is my logic as well. I just took the two bikes again and both does it. The surge is much slighter as when the motor is powered on, but it is there. Like I said above, I plan to speak to the LBS next week when it goes for the service.