EBR made me do it! (new Vado SL 5.0 EQ)

[Stefan Mikes]

Very useful numbers! The SL and I will probably end up near 235 lb, but the power estimates are easily adjusted, as most of the power's lost to resistances proportional to weight.

Problem is, I have no trustworthy grade data. RideWithGPS clearly underestimates grades around here, and On the Go Map clearly overestimates. I usually figure about 5/4 of RideWithGPS grade with scant evidence to back it up.

On that basis, your SL breaking point sounds quite plausible. Fortunately, the steepest hills I've encountered here have all been under 1 km long.

Now, Jeremy, you might understand why I'm overthinking the riding plan of my Vado SL in the coming race! With the maximum 8.4% grade, I'm positive I would easily climb it as I managed climbing the 10% for several times on that e-bike. The thing that makes me worry is the total battery charge I should take on the ride. The range on the flat is nothing here. The Main Battery + Range Extender are good for 95-108 km on the flat at reasonable assistance (50/100% for the shorter or 55/55% for the longer range). However, the 500 m elevation gain requires the second Range Extender! I might want to talk to the e-race organizer and ask him to treat me fair, as my competitors will come with 600-750 Wh batteries, so I need a fair treatment and bringing at least two Range Extenders for the ride! (The actual charge for the MB + 2 RE is 600 Wh now).

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Now, Jeremy, you might understand why I'm overthinking the riding plan of my Vado SL in the coming race! With the maximum 8.4% grade, I'm positive I would easily climb it as I managed climbing the 10% for several times on that e-bike. The thing that makes me worry is the total battery charge I should take on the ride. The range on the flat is nothing here. The Main Battery + Range Extender are good for 95-108 km on the flat at reasonable assistance (50/100% for the shorter or 55/55% for the longer range). However, the 500 m elevation gain requires the second Range Extender! I might want to talk to the e-race organizer and ask him to treat me fair, as my competitors will come with 600-750 Wh batteries, so I need a fair treatment and bringing at least two Range Extenders for the ride! (The actual charge for the MB + 2 RE is 600 Wh now).

I see that we're very much alike in our fondness for overthinking the things we enjoy.

Like Newton's rainbow, that's clearly a matter of personal taste. As long as I remember to savor those things in the moment at gut level, the thinking only makes them better for me.

Good luck with the organizer and the race itself. Let us know how your battery strategy works out.

 

[Chargeride]

Stefan has already calculated the results, the only thing that throw off his predictions would be an unusual number of migratory birds eating the butterflies that are fundamental to his ground wind speed data set.

 

[mschwett]

Very useful numbers! The SL and I will probably end up near 235 lb, but the power estimates are easily adjusted, as most of the power's lost to resistances proportional to weight.

Problem is, I have no trustworthy grade data. RideWithGPS clearly underestimates grades around here, and On the Go Map clearly overestimates. I usually figure about 5/4 of RideWithGPS grade with scant evidence to back it up.

On that basis, your SL breaking point sounds quite plausible. Fortunately, the steepest hills I've encountered here have all been under 1 km long.

interesting!! i haven’t found RwGPS to be off by much over any significant distance - but it’s very choppy and not accurate for very short segments.

what does strava say? you can upload a ride to the free strava and see the grades, very similar to RwGPS.

significant roads in california are rarely graded to over 8% for any length of time, but small rural/neighborhood mountain roads may well
be. i’d be pretty surprised if you have much over 10% except in an exclusively residential neighborhood.

as an example, the ride up mt tamalpais, mt diablo, mt hamilton, etc rarely exceed 8%, and when they do it’s for 50-100 feet. of course, in SF proper i live at the intersection of two streets which exceed 25% - but they don’t build cities like that any more

 

[kevinmccune]

More encouraging results from ongoing pre-SL experiments on the hub-drive

Turns out, my 61 lb, 500W, 65 Nm torque-sensing hub-drive can get me up most nearby hills — some over 10% — at knee-friendly cadence and acceptable exertion in assist level 3 of 9. That's about 1 of 5 on a Level.2.

The display's (presumably electrical) power meter stays mostly under 15% and never exceeds 25% on these climbs — even when pushing pretty hard at 6-7 mph. Since the hub motor's pretty inefficient at such low wheel speeds, the mechanical power I'm actually getting from it on those hills could well be lower than the SL's peak 240 W mechanical.

Conclusion: As a mid-drive, the SL's mechanical power out is tied to cadence, not wheel speed, and peaks at my usual 80-90 RPM. If the gearing's low enough to support that cadence on these slow climbs, the SL could actually work on the hills I usually ride!

Might need to resort to Turbo mode on the steepest ones, and even steeper hills come up now and then. So the SL's fate could come down to gearing options and the need to lug around an RE on typical rides.

to the firewall,dang the torpedos!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan has already calculated the results, the only thing that throw off his predictions would be an unusual number of migratory birds eating the butterflies that are fundamental to his ground wind speed data set.

Oh. I have forgotten to include the wind shear, barometric pressure and ambient temperature in my calculations!

I presented my calculation results to my brother (who is racing in the Classic 100 mile format), and his reply was:
-- 'What is the weather opinion on that?'

He's been so right! Now, there is still a heat-wave but by September 21st we could expect heavy raining, tornadoes, and so on

 

[kevinmccune]

we are nice finally morning temps in the 40's afternoon in the seventies,a great time to be on bike much better then 100 plus temps in july and finally a little rain each week.( rain now only means grass to cut)i see my favorite bike is really down in price( dang temptations)

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

interesting!! i haven’t found RwGPS to be off by much over any significant distance - but it’s very choppy and not accurate for very short segments.

what does strava say? you can upload a ride to the free strava and see the grades, very similar to RwGPS.

significant roads in california are rarely graded to over 8% for any length of time, but small rural/neighborhood mountain roads may well
be. i’d be pretty surprised if you have much over 10% except in an exclusively residential neighborhood.

as an example, the ride up mt tamalpais, mt diablo, mt hamilton, etc rarely exceed 8%, and when they do it’s for 50-100 feet. of course, in SF proper i live at the intersection of two streets which exceed 25% - but they don’t build cities like that any more

Even RideWithGPS shows quite a few 10-12% grades on pavement around here — mainly in residential areas. But you're right that they generally don't last long — a block or so in most cases.

Our topography consists of flattish terraces separated by steep-walled canyons. Road builders here haven't been shy about climbing the walls with the least pavement possible. That includes multilane boulevards.

Found this route planning example on Strava's home page as I looked into it for another take on local grades:

Running on the river would certainly qualify as an adventure!
;^}

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Searched high and low for this to no avail:

With the TCD no longer an option for my coming Vado SL 5.0 EQ, is there any way to power my phone from the main battery or RE?

Need to power my phone from my current bike battery's 1.2A USB port now and then. The phone charging rate is very slow, but at least it keeps up with power-hungry RideWithGPS.

Assuming that the Specialized app replacing RideWithGPS on the SL also draws phone power. Really don't want to carry a heavy powerbank to keep the phone alive on long rides.

 

[BEC111]

Searched high and low for this to no avail:

With the TCD no longer an option for my coming Vado SL 5.0 EQ, is there any way to power my phone from the main battery or RE?

Need to power my phone from my current bike battery's 1.2A USB port now and then. The phone charging rate is very slow, but at least it keeps up with power-hungry RideWithGPS.

Assuming that the Specialized app replacing RideWithGPS on the SL also draws phone power. Really don't want to carry a heavy powerbank to keep the phone alive on long rides.

No, there is no standard option to charge your phone. I suppose something could be wired after the warranty expires but it may not be a good idea.

I carry a power bank for those rides where I’m using RideWithGPS for turn-by-turn directions. Otherwise, my iPhone is good for about two or three hours, then I need the Powerbank. It’s annoying to have to use it, and you have to have some way of mounting it. My phone mount uses elastic bands so I can squeeze both the phone and powerbank onto it.

If I rode on roads rather than a rail trail all the time phone battery life would probably end in buying a cycling computer. Fortunately (?) I don’t have that issue.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Buy a Wahoo
Think why you need to use a smartphone while riding at all, Jeremy.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Buy a Wahoo
Think why you need to use a smartphone while riding at all, Jeremy.

Well, mainly because you (#40) and someone else here told me I could use the Specialized app on my phone in lieu of a separate bike computer till I'm ready to spring for a Wahoo.

Which might be never. After all, if I give Wahoo $400, that's $400 less to spend on getting the SL ready for the next TdF.
;^}

 

[DaveMatthews]

Well, mainly because you (#40) and someone else here told me I could use the Specialized app on my phone in lieu of a separate bike computer till I'm ready to spring for a Wahoo.

Which might be never. After all, if I give Wahoo $400, that's $400 less to spend on getting the SL ready for the next TdF.
;^}

I started with using Strava to track rides on my phone like you with RWGPS.
Also like you I saw some relatively significant battery consumption.
That led me to a Garmin along with a remote so that I could see various pages of info/maps without taking my hands off the grip (safety).
Helluva combo, and the battery lasts a LOT longer than I ever could...

 

[PedalUma]

Some tire questions, please.

The Vado SL 5.0s now come with 700x38 Nimbus 2 tubed tires rated for 50-80 psi. These city tires are NOT tubeless-ready.

Since the bike will be doing some gravel, Plan A was to switch to tubeless Pathfinder Pros to be run at lower pressures. But just noticed that the Pathfinders are also rated for 50-80 psi.

Q1. Is that 50-80 psi the tubed pressure rating?

Q2. If so, what would the Pathfinder's tubeless pressure range be?

Q3. Any other tried and true 700x38 tubeless hybrids I should consider? Tires that can be run at, say, 30 psi?

Get some Byway 37's to go tubeless at lower pressures. 1mm is half the width of a nickel. Not much difference for the large improvement.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Get some Byway 37's to go tubeless at lower pressures. 1mm is half the width of a nickel. Not much difference for the large improvement.

View attachment 181904

Thanks! Promising-looking tread.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I started with using Strava to track rides on my phone like you with RWGPS.
Also like you I saw some relatively significant battery consumption.
That led me to a Garmin along with a remote so that I could see various pages of info/maps without taking my hands off the grip (safety).
Helluva combo, and the battery lasts a LOT longer than I ever could...

Thanks, I could well end up there.

We'll see how much power the Specialized app draws compared with RideWithGPS. Since I just bought a QuadLock mount and case for the SL, hoping for now that the phone battery will last a typical ride if I head out with enough charge.

If not, may get a small backup powerbank — much cheaper than a bike computer.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Well, mainly because you (#40) and someone else here told me I could use the Specialized app on my phone in lieu of a separate bike computer till I'm ready to spring for a Wahoo.

Right.

You asked whether you could charge your phone from the e-bike, and the answer was 'not'. Equipping our e-bikes took some of us years according to growing needs and experience. Similarly to @DaveMatthews, it took me a long time to ride with the smartphone on the bars and a powerbank. (Despite owning a Samsung S24 Ultra now -- the battery holding for two days with a proper configuration -- I still carry a powerbank in my pannier just in case). I bought my first Wahoo only after I could not bear using a smartphone on e-bike anymore (and smashing yet another phone).

Which reminded me of an adventurous day in West Pomerania. West Pomerania is (I guess) one of the wildest areas of Poland (sparsely populated, forests, wolves, etc). On the second e-bike ride of that day, I had to ride with the powerbank in my jersey back pocket and the cable extending to the handlebars When I was thinking of that very day, I recollected that was the single occasion when tubeless saved my day (and me in that wilderness!) I was actually thinking on that day on last Wednesday. Which reminded me of something really important!

When I go for a long or critical ride, I carry several items in my pannier:

• A set of hex wrenches, so nothing will become loose... Check.
• A repair set for the chain, so chain wouldn't even get the idea to break... Check.
• A first aid kit, disinfectant, pads, bandage, patches, so no crash would (of course) happen... Check.
• Toilet paper, so I wouldn't... Check.
• A pump... Wait, didn't I forget something?

I've been riding my Vado SL tubeless for 4 months now. Except regular re-inflation and a single sealant replenishment, I even didn't think of catching a flat. But I was missing the security, the tubeless repair set! I ordered one on Wednesday: a Lezyne one that even included CO2 cartridges for re-seating the tyre bead on the rim. On Thursday evening, I happily pedalled my Vado SL to the nearest InPost parcel locker. To my surprise, the QR code from the app produced an "Authorization Error" in the system, for the first time in my life! What could have gone wrong?! Well, I ordered the delivery not to that parcel locker but to the gardening store a kilometre away...

I wrote this to give you Jeremy a little bit of distraction!

My Vado SL holds very well!

 

[mschwett]

Thanks, I could well end up there.

We'll see how much power the Specialized app draws compared with RideWithGPS. Since I just bought a QuadLock mount and case for the SL, hoping for now that the phone battery will last a typical ride if I head out with enough charge.

If not, may get a small backup powerbank — much cheaper than a bike computer.

unfortunately the new specialized app doesn't have white on black mode - although if your phone isn't a new one (with an OLED screen) that won't make a big difference.

on an OLED iPhone white on black dashboard apps (like mission control, or cadence, or cyclemeter or strava) will last a very long time - i've done 100+ mile rides without a backup battery, but i do turn the screen off from time to time to just get in the zone, maybe 1/3 or so of a 6-8 hour day.

 

[mschwett]

Thanks! Promising-looking tread.

for more rabbit holes to go down before you receive your bike, compare potential tires on bicyclerollingresistance.com

the range of resistance in similarly sized (36-40mm measured width below) tires with the "smooth center knobby edge" design is HUGE, from 13.6w (27.2 for a pair) to almost 60w for a pair. at slower speeds, that kind of difference will affect your range very noticeably. the last column shows the tradeoff of puncture resistance. you can see why the pathfinders are fairly popular, a good balance of low-ish weight and rolling resistance with the best grip and decent puncture resistance.

it's also worth noting that if you're not riding off road or in the wet, the knobby sides really don't help you at all. they're just loud, heavy, and have lots of drag. but extremely useful on dirt

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

for more rabbit holes to go down before you receive your bike, compare potential tires on bicyclerollingresistance.com

the range of resistance in similarly sized (36-40mm measured width below) tires with the "smooth center knobby edge" design is HUGE, from 13.6w (27.2 for a pair) to almost 60w for a pair. at slower speeds, that kind of difference will affect your range very noticeably. the last column shows the tradeoff of puncture resistance. you can see why the pathfinders are fairly popular, a good balance of low-ish weight and rolling resistance with the best grip and decent puncture resistance.

it's also worth noting that if you're not riding off road or in the wet, the knobby sides really don't help you at all. they're just loud, heavy, and have lots of drag. but extremely useful on dirt

View attachment 181953

Thanks! I seem to be attracted to rabbit holes. Very useful site.

Your data and my own research all point to the tubeless Pathfinder Pro, so that decision's final now. The SL will definitely be going offroad. The Pathfinders will go on the moment it passes its climbing and knee-friendliness trials.

We've reached a point in bike technology and commerce where everything's a trade-off. And one you may or may not know how to play. Things were simpler in my first cycling era back in the 50s through 80s.