Difference Between Performance Line Sport vs Speed

[JemJam]

So I see the spec sheet differences of 65 vs 85 NM of Tq. 300 vs 340% max boost.

From the descriptions it seems like the speed is better able to hold up to max speed.

I rode a Tern HSD S11 with the Sport, and it felt like there was a taper after 20 and on level ground pushing past 24 MPH it started to feel like it was more me than the motor providing the power, despite being in Turbo. I am wondering if the Speed would be better for that application and waiting to see if something like that comes out on the 2022 bikes would be worth it.

 

[retiredNH]

I have an Allant 8s with speed. The torque seems to kick in at higher pedal RPM, 80 or so. Of course with a class 1 motor like you tried, power would drop at 20 or so. 2022 Bosch offerings don't look to be much different. One big disadvantage of Performance Speed is that there have been no software updates in over a year, unlike the Performance CX, which seems to regularly get new goodies. You might keep that in mind.

Whatever you do, though, avoid the smartphone hub. Bosch seems to have ignored it for a long time. It's pretty limited in terms of what it does, compared to some of the more premium offerings.

 

[JemJam]

I have an Allant 8s with speed. The torque seems to kick in at higher pedal RPM, 80 or so. Of course with a class 1 motor like you tried, power would drop at 20 or so. 2022 Bosch offerings don't look to be much different. One big disadvantage of Performance Speed is that there have been no software updates in over a year, unlike the Performance CX, which seems to regularly get new goodies. You might keep that in mind.

Whatever you do, though, avoid the smartphone hub. Bosch seems to have ignored it for a long time. It's pretty limited in terms of what it does, compared to some of the more premium offerings.

The Performance Speed is a "class 3" that goes up to 28mph, but it just seems like it has a taper from 20 to 28 where you start losing the assist. I also did try cadences from about 60-120, but still not appreciably easier. So I am wondering if the difference between the Speed and the Sport might be that taper.

What updates did the CX get that make it better?

 

[BlackHand]

Based on the specs, the Sport is probably a Gen3 drive unit. The CX is Gen4.

I can't speak to how either behaves as I have a Gen2 Speed drive unit, but your description of the Sport sounds similar to how my bike behaves. The support doesn't taper off until about 26 mph, but keep in mind that it takes twice as much power to go 27mph as it does to go 20mph and on a 250w continuous drive unit your legs have to make up most of that difference.

Edit to add this link from Chris at Propel talking about the sport. Sounds like it does taper off support quicker than the Speed drive does

 

[JemJam]

Based on the specs, the Sport is probably a Gen3 drive unit. The CX is Gen4.

I can't speak to how either behaves as I have a Gen2 Speed drive unit, but your description of the Sport sounds similar to how my bike behaves. The support doesn't taper off until about 26 mph, but keep in mind that it takes twice as much power to go 27mph as it does to go 20mph and on a 250w continuous drive unit your legs have to make up most of that difference.

Edit to add this link from Chris at Propel talking about the sport. Sounds like it does taper off support quicker than the Speed drive does

Thanks for the video - that is pretty much my experience. Maybe 2022 will bring an HSD with a gen 4 speed + belt, or GSD with a Cargo Speed + belt.

 

[JoeDirt]

Yeah I'll chime in once again about this constant issue that really Tans my hide about these Bosch units. That tapering is a bunch of malarkey. We need to get pure assist up to the given class of one or three. We are getting jipped and have to work twice as hard to maintain or even get to the Limit of the classification. I think they're being very cheap on giving us more gas for the big bucks that we spend for these motors. I'm new to the ebike world and that is the first thing that I saw is the is the cut back on the assist as a tapers and you either can or cannot maintain that speed to the maximum class level and when you get there you're so burnt out anyway once it cuts off now you're hit with the full impact of a 50 lb bike and you go right back down on mph.

I get really worked up every time I think about this because they can't give us pure speed up to the Limit and then cut us off.

If that is their concept of class 1 or class 3 to taper you off until you get to the maximum speed I think that is just crap that's just my two cents. My green US Dollars can support quite chain motor and probably get pure speed until it burns out! I'm just being facetious because this is a sore spot with me getting jipped. Anybody that wants to chime in to disagree with this please give me some real valid clarification how I should buy into this because it just does not work in my logical engineering brain. When you give your car gas and you want to go to 60 mph and you let off at 60 that's the limit or if you set your speed control to 60 it holds at 60 it doesn't screw at the engine to get you to 60. Just my two cents cheers Namaste and anything else that will bring peace to you!

 

[BlackHand]

Get yourself a Nyon if your bike is a System 2 Bosch and not Smart System. You can customize the assist to minimize the taper. But - you will always have a min 1mph taper down to your max speed cutoff because the riding experience would be extremely unpleasant to have the motor abruptly cut out at the 28 and then kick back in at full blast before you have time to adjust your human output to try to maintain speed. It would be like repeatedly running into a wall and then being rear-ended.

Or better yet, sounds like you might be happier with a 750w motor like a Bafang than a Euro spec 250w ebike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Or better yet, sounds like you might be happier with a 750w motor like a Bafang than a Euro spec 250w ebike.

The 250W 'spec' e-bike is claimed to have some 600 W mechanical peak power while the 750 W on Bafang might be just the electrical power (meaning, some 600 W mechanical power). I wonder if anyone has ever measured the mechanical output of Bafang motors?

 

[wildtrak]

some real valid clarification how I should buy into this because it just does not work in my logical engineering brain.

Just get a tuning chip.
This is from Europe where they have to be street legal following serious laws and regulations. And those are actually enforced there.
There are "regulations" in the USA. But they don't mean s*it and nothing is enforced in the USA.
Or buy some chinese ebike. They also don't care about regulations.

 

[Sparky731]

Yeah I'll chime in once again about this constant issue that really Tans my hide about these Bosch units. That tapering is a bunch of malarkey. We need to get pure assist up to the given class of one or three. We are getting jipped and have to work twice as hard to maintain or even get to the Limit of the classification. I think they're being very cheap on giving us more gas for the big bucks that we spend for these motors. I'm new to the ebike world and that is the first thing that I saw is the is the cut back on the assist as a tapers and you either can or cannot maintain that speed to the maximum class level and when you get there you're so burnt out anyway once it cuts off now you're hit with the full impact of a 50 lb bike and you go right back down on mph.

I get really worked up every time I think about this because they can't give us pure speed up to the Limit and then cut us off.

If that is their concept of class 1 or class 3 to taper you off until you get to the maximum speed I think that is just crap that's just my two cents. My green US Dollars can support quite chain motor and probably get pure speed until it burns out! I'm just being facetious because this is a sore spot with me getting jipped. Anybody that wants to chime in to disagree with this please give me some real valid clarification how I should buy into this because it just does not work in my logical engineering brain. When you give your car gas and you want to go to 60 mph and you let off at 60 that's the limit or if you set your speed control to 60 it holds at 60 it doesn't screw at the engine to get you to 60. Just my two cents cheers Namaste and anything else that will bring peace to you!

Not trying to get you any more “worked up” on this issue, but Bosch speedometers are incorrect according to every highway radar I have ever encountered. Your Purion, or Kiox or whatever controller your bike uses will display 15 mph when you are only moving ~13mph. Or, if your display show 28 at your cut-off point (class 3), the radar will display ~26.

Bosch is over selling and underperforming. Same differences on Bosch class 1.

I have had my dealer check all of my bikes and they meet Bosch specifications.

 

[Sparky731]

I have an Allant 8s with speed. The torque seems to kick in at higher pedal RPM, 80 or so. Of course with a class 1 motor like you tried, power would drop at 20 or so. 2022 Bosch offerings don't look to be much different. One big disadvantage of Performance Speed is that there have been no software updates in over a year, unlike the Performance CX, which seems to regularly get new goodies. You might keep that in mind.

Whatever you do, though, avoid the smartphone hub. Bosch seems to have ignored it for a long time. It's pretty limited in terms of what it does, compared to some of the more premium offerings.

When I picked up my new 8s the Trek Tech advised me to always use an extra strap to keep my phone in the holder. My opinion was Trek really chose poorly with that controller configuration. So I had Trek swap it for a Kiox. Much better controller.

Also, per motors, my 7s and 8s both use the Speed motor. I have >12k miles between my 7s and 8s. I like the Speed motor vs. the Performance Line Sport on my wife’s 4s. The Speed seems to have more torque than the Sport.

 

[JoeDirt]

When I picked up my new 8s the Trek Tech advised me to always use an extra strap to keep my phone in the holder. My opinion was Trek really chose poorly with that controller configuration. So I had Trek swap it for a Kiox. Much better controller.

Also, per motors, my 7s and 8s both use the Speed motor. I have >12k miles between my 7s and 8s. I like the Speed motor vs. the Performance Line Sport on my wife’s 4s. The Speed seems to have more torque than the Sport.

Thanks Sparky for your input and I can cure the speed motor definitely felt stronger through all of the assist levels and pushing to the top speed seemed more robust. I guess that has a lot to do with the torque and power output. I returned my Trek Verve + 3 because of the lack of assist and having to work very hard to get it over a 19.5..

I was pushing that 53 lb bike very hard at 19.5 per hour and when I did hit 20, basically I got shut off and I had the full impact of a 53 lb bike on my legs.. so I sent it back and I'm going to get a gazelle ultimate T10+ with the performance speed motor Class 3.

I'm new to e-bikes and from riding the different variances I could feel the power differences very clearly on my legs. Also I have ridden some of the Mahle Motors on a few specialized bikes and was not impressed with those either. So I am looking forward to getting the gazelle ultimate T10+ with the performance speed motor. Thanks again

 

[Stefan Mikes]

lso I have ridden some of the Mahle Motors on a few specialized bikes and was not impressed with those either.

Have you ridden a Vado 5.0 (non SL) with the Brose motor?

 

[JoeDirt]

Have you ridden a Vado 5.0 (non SL) with the Brose motor?

Yes I have,
they had one in the shop brand new condition and silver, super nice, actually pretty light. It definitely felt happier and more get up and go than the newer improved one even though it has only 30Nm.

About the new Vado SL 2.0 EQ, is one Stellar bike in every aspect of componentry and style. I just wish it felt like it had more torque. The engineers are probably not worrying about it much because it has such a huge cassette.

 

[Sparky731]

Yes I have,
they had one in the shop brand new condition and silver, super nice, actually pretty light. It definitely felt happier and more get up and go than the newer improved one even though it has only 30Nm.

About the new Vado SL 2.0 EQ, is one Stellar bike in every aspect of componentry and style. I just wish it felt like it had more torque. The engineers are probably not worrying about it much because it has such a huge cassette.

Coincidence, my 1st ebike was a Verve+3 but decided a class 1 did not meet my need for speed. We rode Gazelles (150 miles) in August on a bike tour in Idaho and liked the bike but the model was a class 1. Surely the Gazelle class 3 model would be more to my style.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yes I have,
they had one in the shop brand new condition and silver, super nice, actually pretty light. It definitely felt happier and more get up and go than the newer improved one even though it has only 30Nm.

I mean, did you ride a Vado 5.0 with the 90 Nm motor? (Vado is not Vado SL).
In what terms is Gazelle T10+ stronger or more lightweight than the Turbo Vado 5.0?