Demo Problem

[BenS]

Rojagrande, I'm glad the shopping experience is starting to bear fruit. I agree with everyone here regarding test rides; they are absolutely necessary, and if a store salesperson is not willing to let you ride, walk out. You never know what weird perception they are operating on, and they need to understand that it only takes one moment of bad customer service to flush a $2500 sale.
Good luck to you! Don't forget to show off pics when you buy your bike.

 

[motostrano]

I stumbled on to this older post today, so I thought to shed some light on it and “the demo problem” thoughtfully because I can see some impressions that are not in line with reality or our policy and “the demo problem” is an issue that e-bike dealers and consumers face daily when in the market for an e-bike.

I’m the owner here at Motostrano and believe firmly in the power of e-bikes to change people’s lives and there’s nothing I like better than to hear how these bikes have transformed people just weeks from when they leave our store with a new bike. We’ve been selling e-bikes for 6 years or so. In my view that is a lot of “research” experience under our belt that we feel is warrant the trust of our potential customers. Over the years we’ve sold most brands, considered most brands and serviced most brands. We have a lot of knowledge to relay to you and though we’re not always the know-it-all, we have some real first hand experience that is worth your time.

We also do everything in our power to make the buying and owning process as wonderful as possible and one of the ways we accomplish that is by letting you try e-bikes before buying them. We do this in the following list ways:

• 2 store locations to serve you- Redwood City and San Francisco, each with a big sign outside that says “Try An Ebike Today"
• We keep a large inventory of e-bikes on hand for you to look at, try and buy
• We purchase bikes from our suppliers as “demo bikes” with special pricing programs for demo bike purchases
• We keep a designated fleet of demo e-bikes for you to try first hand in and around our store
• We keep a fleet of demo e-bikes that you can rent for daily and weekly use
• We stage monthly factory and store-sponsored demo events with support from our vendors and using their demo fleets
• Bring-the-demo-to-You appointments, where we’ll bring bikes to a trail or path of your choice
• Periodic meet-ups and rides in the local area
• Special order program, where you can back out at any time if it’s not the right bike for you

We’ve always allowed demos on many of our bikes and have more demo e-bikes and more e-bikes in our two store locations (Redwood City and San Francisco) than any store in the SF Bay Area. Currently, we have over 50 e-bikes on the floor. Appx 15 of those I’d say are actual demo bikes. Right now you can test out a Felt Lebowsk-e, a Haibike 29er, a Haibike Trekking, a BH Nitro, EVO Eco, Benelli, iZIP Path, etc. a bunch of others. We put an orange tag on the bikes that are “demo bikes” so you know what’s what.

Our inventory is always changing and our demo practices evolve too! On the plan is to have a demo van that we can set up around the bay area and beyond to bring the party to you. We are always open to ideas about new things we can do to get more people on bikes.

In addition to a full fleet of demo e-bikes, which naturally fluctuates and changes from month to month as we cycle through our inventory, we typically host one major store-wide demo event per month, lasting all day, heavily promoted, with purchasing incentives, featuring one of our brands or many of them. (in fact, we are doing a Valentines Day e-bike demo tomorrow at our store) Our most recent event (https://www.facebook.com/events/426409244173102/) was just this past month and was a huge success. These are promoted on our social media, newsletters and other outlets and I highly recommend getting connected with us so you can find out about them. At those events, our vendors will usually bring a fleet of demo bikes that have been put through tests already and eager for more. They are not for sale bikes.

Check out our Youtube channel to see video of some our past events. https://www.youtube.com/motostrano

And, if we can’t get vendors to join in, we do our own events using our own bikes. Events are key to bringing people in the store, trying and buying bikes.

In addition to these store demos, we will also “bring the demo to you”, as it were and in fact, if you are in the market for an e-bike and are a serious buyer and need to test out a bike exactly where you’d be riding it, or on a similar trail, we will actually load a bike or two in the truck and meet you on the trail or path and let you try our demo bike in your neighborhood or even up on a trail if it’s a mountain bike. We love doing this. Any excuse to go ride bikes and get out of the store is a good thing. We just ask that you are serious and committed to buying an e-bike from our store.

We have brought these demo rides to both individuals, families and corporations looking to buy in to e-bikes for their employees. We’ve had demo days at VW Corporation, at Apple Computer, UBER and even at BOSCH HQ in Palo Alto. I’ve brought fleets of e-bikes to hotels and to people’s houses on top of giant hills.

We also host rides out of our store or on trail from time to time, for owners and prospects. http://www.meetup.com

That said, we do not allow ALL of our bikes to be demo’d on any whim. It’s important that people have done some amount of research so that we don’t have to go through 10 demo bikes to single out a bike to purchase. Any store that allows all of their e-bikes to be tested and demo’d, putting miles and hours on the motor and battery, is shooting themselves in the foot and often screwing over their customers by selling used demo bikes as “new” bikes even for full price. Other stores do this, we don’t. There’s a lot of stores around our area that, when you see their “new” bikes, have upwards of 200 miles on them from previous sales attempts, all demo rides.

Unlike standard bicycles, e-bikes show wear and use differently. They have a speedometer. They have charge cycles. They have motors. A standard bicycle shows wear only on tires. E-bikes wear more like a car and heck, they are priced like one too! And customers don’t want to buy “demo bikes” when they are buying “new bikes”. If a customer is paying full price for a bike, our bike will have near 0 miles on it. Just enough of our technician to ride it around the block to make sure everything is functioning properly before being deemed “ready for sale”.

At other stores, when shopping for an e-bike, make sure the bike you are buying, if sold as “new”, is actually NEW. We know that many stores simply demo out their whole inventory and then try to sell at full retail. In fact, we have customers who won’t even buy a bike that they didn’t see come fresh out of the box! A bike that may have been set up yesterday, tested by themselves first today, is no longer “new” in their view, even though they were the first to test it.

For instance, if you want to buy a Haibike Super Race from us- a $7000 e-bike, but you want to first flog it around the neighbor hood and compare it to an EasyMotion 29er and an A2b KUO, we’re not going to let that happen. As your guide in this, our job is to help you narrow down what you’re looking to do with the e-bike based on what you say your needs are and also get you to test out bikes in real world conditions. So, instead of putting miles on a brand new $6000 ebike, we’d put you on a the same brand of bike using the same motor. Then, come back in the store and sit on the Super Race and get a fitting. If you are really serious about it, have cash in hand, we’ll often even bend this rule, but we look for commitment.

Is it possible to purchase an e-bike without trying it first? Absolutely and it happens all the time. We ourselves buy most of these new models without ever trying them and then reselling them of course. Customers do this too.

If you’re lost in the woods about what bike to get, we hope that we project some element of trust as to what might work for you. We ride bikes daily. Commute on them. Work on them. We know what works, what doesn’t. What comes back for warranty too much, what doesn’t. We know what to advise you on if you want a commuter, or a cruiser, or a do everything bike and you have a budget.

And, if we are recommend a particular brand over another and recommending saving up for higher priced e-bike, because we thinks it’s better, it’s not on a whim, it’s because we know you will be happier for it in the long run, because you won’t be bringing it back in for repairs and because we know it will live up to your needs and expectations. In fact, for some of those brands, particularly a BOSCH powered e-bike - we’ll even take it back within a few days of purchase if the bike didn’t do what we said it would. That said, we're not trying to up-sell you and if it's a matter of cash or budget then we work around that. But we're some times a little too honest too...

A lot of how we work depends on the feedback we hear from the customer, at what stage of the buying process you are in.

In addition to our demo policy we also now rent e-bikes. So, if you need to feel what owning an e-bike might feel like long term, you can rent one of our e-bikes. Of course, not all of our bikes are available for rent either, but many of our demo bikes can be rented.
Given our excellent inventory and liberal demo policy, one thing we are acutely paranoid about, however, is the practice of being show-roomed and wasting time on a visitor to our store who has no intention of buying anything at all. A percentage of the customer base, a small percentage, but still a nagging and real one, feels no remorse at all about taking up the time of staff in a store, perhaps hours of time, taking away time even from customers who are trying to buy things that day, putting miles on bikes, asking questions, returning multiple times, asking more questions, saying flat out “I’m’ going to buy a bike from you”, all the while only leading the store on and having no intention whatsoever about buying anything at the store. Either because they are eyeballing some used bike on Ebay, or Craigslist, or their company offers them a deal, or some small shop has said they can order something for them at a discount once they try out other shops’ bikes or they “just don’t do” Sales Tax and will not ever buy locally, even to the most respected local IBD that has the bike new on the floor at a discount including full warranty and free tune-ups. This all happens and through experience, we can often tell in advance who is serious about buying, has the spousal approval and the needed decisiveness to pull the trigger on something. Other times we can’t tell. Most times there’s no way to tell who’s actively show-rooming us until the hours have been wasted. Even the biggest of retail chain stores can’t afford to be show-roomed and we are far from big.

In spite of the fact that e-bikes have been around for over 100 years, E-bikes are a “new thing” for Americans. Not so much for other parts of the world, but we are slow to adopt e-bikes still and so many bike shops don’t know a thing about them. As such, and with the help of the internet, we find that there are way too many folks out there in a constant "research mode” and to be honest it makes for a tricky and often paranoid relationship between the consumer and the store. You want to test, review and blog about what you’ve checked out online, some times allowing for months of this research activity. We want to sell you what you’ve checked out online in the shortest amount of time possible. If you’re in “research mode” you’re not really that committed to the symbiotic relationship between us, the seller, you the buyer, yet. That’s our challenge.

There’s so many resources out there to assist you when you are in “research mode” that are free to use and don’t take up some one else’s time except your own. This web site is full of reviews, there’s a community, there’s videos everywhere. All great.

In my view, the best research you can do about e-bikes is to get out and own one. Take the plunge. Buy the bike. Take the risk that you may actually not buy the right bike the first time. It happens. It’s ok. If you get it right the first time then great and we dealers can help! We are asked often “what if this thing doesn’t work out for me, what do I do?” Can I return it? Although we don’t typically do returns, unless we made some specific guarantee - which we often do - we do sell bikes on consignment and fortunately the used market for e-bikes is excellent in our neighborhood. So, if you are afraid that if you buy an ebike today and it doesn’t work out for you that you’ll be stuck with it, that won’t happen. If you buy a $3000 e-bike today, treat it well, you could easily expect to sell it in just a few months for $2500, making that a $500 few month rental, which is a great deal and makes sense.

So yes. We certainly do allow demos. Come check us out and let’s ride.

And- RG- I would guess there was some mis-communication going on the day of your visit, because as you can see from others who've been to our store, demo rides are absolutely a part of our store experience. If you're still in the market for a bike, I'd love to help you.

Joe Witherspoon
Motostrano

 

[George S.]

This all happens and through experience, we can often tell in advance who is serious about buying, has the spousal approval and the needed decisiveness to pull the trigger on something. Other times we can’t tell. Most times there’s no way to tell who’s actively show-rooming us until the hours have been wasted. Even the biggest of retail chain stores can’t afford to be show-roomed and we are far from big.


A lot of salesmen will say they just want a shot at a customer. The customer thinks he is in control, but the product sells itself, or whatever. If you take that attitude, you don't worry about showrooming.

I just think your industry, the retail side, has created a pretty unpleasant place, a rather dark and paranoid place. After the Haibike was 'bike of the year' I went and looked at one. It was clear that was all you could do. If you were drooling and hundred dollar bills were spilling out of your pocket, they might give you a test ride. Otherwise, the bike was in a glass case. Even though the US market for ebikes is tiny, it's being pushed to the limit by 'new and improved' drivetrains, automatic transmissions, higher prices. You say Bosch is perfect on another thread, and when people come back with comments to the contrary, you disappear. This is a pretty self-promotional post, on your part, FWIW.

I'll never go back to a retail ebike store unless it's the best deal, based on a price I know they will honor. I don't want people deciding what my prospects are, or just profiling me. Maybe these hyper-expensive bikes are too valuable to ride and leave anywhere, too precious to let people try.

You're in love with the idea of super expensive, super high-status bikes, bikes that very few people can afford. Do you study the less expensive bikes, looking for the best bikes? Do you work with the Chinese companies that supply much less expensive components? Can you summon the courage to mention any other bike than a Bosch drive?

I have a bike I paid about $1700 for. I bought it from a dealer, same dealer as had the Haibike. It's fine. It doesn't have an elegant drive train, but it's been perfectly reliable for a year.

Yeah, people. Anyone out there. Buy an ebike and learn what it's about. Even better, buy a nice reasonably priced one that really represents what ebiking should be about! I saw an older guy going up a steep hill on a regular bike last weekend. He was in real pain. People get out of shape. Ebikes can help a lot.

 

[motostrano]

Hi George

Thanks for your reply. We have had no issues with the Gen 2 BOSCH system, so I can't comment on stuff I've only heard about. We had one issue with a Gen 1. Until we see issues with Gen 2, I'll keep score on our end so I can relay this information to our customers and they can decide what to do based on budget and all the rest. So far it's 100% great. I do wish there was a way they could be made more affordable. We'd sell even more and there'd be more on the road. Right now, if a customer says they have a budget of $4000 for an ebike, we recommend a Felt, Haibike, BH or Grace, Urban Arrow on the Cargo side.

We've got a demo FS RX and 29er Haibike in both our stores for you test ride if you want. You don't need to have cash falling out of your pants to do so. Just be friendly about it and give us the impression that there's a two way street in the deal, either from you directly or a friend. We're not a library, we're a store and a store is a great place to buy an e-bike.

I think to say that we are 'in love with the idea of super expensive high status bikes" is a stretch, but our stores do happen to be in very affluent parts of the country where the roads are filled with Teslas and BMWs - San Francisco and Silicon Valley - where there are lots of people who can afford them and frequently do buy them, often two of them. But, one of my favorite e-bikes made is the $1400 A2B Kuo and it's also one of our top sellers. It's not the highest quality bike in the world, nor the fastest, but it does what it sets out to do pretty well and we don't often see them bounce back with broken motors or dead batteries.

What I want in a product, wWhat I feel good about selling you, or any one, is a product that is very reliable, doesn't leave people stranded out on a ride and doesn't cause our mechanics to spend too much time figuring out problems with bike parts that should just work, for a long time.

Our sweet spot of price tends to be around the $2200 range for our iIZiPs and A2Bs, the Benellis and so forth but we do not deal with any of the cheap Chinese stuff directly and this is intentional for sure. I get solicitations all day long to import stuff from China and we ignore it. It's super important to have local representation, a person you can talk to, handle parts, warranty questions. This is what we get with our iZIP, BH any of the more moderately priced bikes and kits, all based on the Taiwanese motors and batteries. We do import some products in from Europe on the other hand, like the Urban Arrow and M1 bikes.

Joe

 

[motostrano]

One of our top selling e-bikes... the KUO ($1399.00) with Vanessa on it who says she's our "a2b commercial' in San Francisco.

 

[George S.]

Our sweet spot of price tends to be around the $2200 range for our iIZiPs and A2Bs, the Benellis and so forth but we do not deal with any of the cheap Chinese stuff directly and this is intentional for sure. I get solicitations all day long to import stuff from China and we ignore it.

It's a strange argument. No direct China stuff. But it's great if BH does their assembly in China, with Chinese parts. You don't want to deal directly with the Chinese, have those relationships? Why do assembly and then suggest there is something wrong with the Chinese product? They make great smartphones? They have a hundred million ebikes? I'm lost. When will their product be good enough for you? As long as it is under European guidance, the Chinese product is good enough? Interesting.

One last comment. Why does BH make bikes in China. The youth unemployment rate in Spain, where they are headquartered, is 55%. That's a lot of unemployed kids. You would think, maybe, they could try to do something about that. What good does it do BH to make really nice, rather pricey bikes, in Asia, when their economy at home has been in a depression for 7 years?

 

[motostrano]

It's thought out and it's what you see from the vast majority of small businesses. Buying from a local distributor vs abroad so that you have a local contact for your activities vs international. If we wanted to be a distributor, or an assembler, we'd go that route, we don't, yet at least. I do enjoy the occasional trip to Europe however where I like to source some European e-bikes or accessories and such, absolutely. I have family there, etc. so it's a pleasant thing to do.

Why BH makes bikes in China vs Spain, I suppose, is that it still cheaper in the long run to do so, rather than build the machining and so forth locally and hiring and training it's unemployed. I couldn't say.

Joe

 

[Deleted member 803]

George, I don't know much about Chinese manufacturing. I did a brief 30 years stint designing products and building in China. Because Asian is a source for so many components, it provides a strong financial argument for using China manufacturing resources of which only one advantage is labor cost. The quality of product coming out of China is totally dependent upon the manufacturer. Apple products out of Foxconn are arguably the highest quality made products in the world. Japan, famous for its attention to manufacturing detail uses China for most of its manufacturing today. China has so much manufacturing infrastructure and such a large labor force that the economics are still very much in its favor. Anecdotally, Audi's highest customer satisfaction comes from cars it produces in China. The good news is that China product management and engineering is light years away from being world class. For so many decades, China made products for its own market that were truly substandard. I will tell you the emerging middle class in places like Shanghai do not want chinese engineered products. Probably why Apple iphone has #1 market share there.

 

[George S.]

The good news is that China product management and engineering is light years away from being world class. For so many decades, China made products for its own market that were truly substandard.

Obviously, this is not an easy issue to get a handle on. I look at the products from Huawei, Xiaomi, and Lenovo and figure they are close to world class. IBM couldn't make money selling computers, and sold out to Lenovo. Lenovo does make money, and their product ranks very high for overall quality.

Look, I own a Moto G, which is now a Chinese company. That's my phone. I'll argue what Apple really represents for 2 minutes and then I am done. I'm not going to start it, either.

I remember Chinese shortwave radios in 1994 that had cold solder joints and other obvious faults. Yeah the Chinese make 100 million ebikes for the home market, and they cost $200 apiece, and they aren't very good. But people importing Chinese bikes, sticking their names on them, and selling them through legit dealers.

The frames come from Taiwan, and that is moving to China. The motors come from China, and Bafang has a good reputation. Most other parts are world market parts, like Shimano, and they are made in China. They can make a good frame for Raleigh, but not for themselves? Huh? They can't assemble the parts? The motors are only good if they go in Euro bikes? Nothing on Alibaba is any good?

I just bought a $70 sport camera. It works great. The software is very sophisticated. The return address is China. There is nothing about this camera that is bad. Nothing. Why can't they make a bike, which is big and has parts you can pick up and assemble?

To me, somewhere in here, your point gets lost. They can make good stuff, they can assemble the most highly regarded phone, they sell a lot of ebikes. When do you think they will just jump over the obstacle and make great ebikes? Light years? Two years?

 

[Deleted member 803]

I think we are many years away from China producing great products on its own. They are graduating more engineering students each year than ALL the other universities in the world combined. The problem is a cultural one. There need to be mentors and an environment of support (both culturally and financially) to think creatively about new and better products. SO many Chinese businessmen makes millions of dollars producing cheap knockoffs for their own markets. It is when those local markets start to demand better products that businesses will encourage the delivery of better products. The other problem is that the Chinese do not have worldwide marketing skill sets. Even today, they lack the classic product management and product marketing skills necessary to sell what they create outside of China. The government doesn't help as it has created, for decades, this archaic system of providing low export license fees but much high fees for producing and delivering product locally. I know it sounds brain dead but it has hampered Chinese businesses from fostering originality.

 

[Deleted member 803]

More specifically to e-bikes: North American is a weak tertiary market for bicycles, followed by a stronger secondary market in Europe. Asia is an exponentially larger market for bikes. If I were a Chinese e-bike manufacturer, I'd probably totally ignore the US market as the demand for e-bikes in Asia is so strong. Our opinion calling Chinese "made" e-bikes substandard is myopic. For China, at large, the e-bikes engineered and made in China fill the market need just fine.

I have been in talks with a Taiwanese e-bike integrator. They are willing to build anything I want to any spec. I can use an open market frame casting or they will create one for me and then build to my specs. Outside of frame geometry, bike vendors don't have a lot of proprietary barriers to entry other than brand development and an established dealer channel. The particular vendor I am talking to will even provide BT connectivity via a phone app, GPS locator technology built-in, and just about any other high tech stuff I want. Except for Derby and the Impulse 2 motor, just about every piece of tech on your bikes can be licensed.

In time, all the cool stuff we want on an e-bike will come down in price as more vendors compete for larger and larger volumes. I remember paying (years ago) $2K for a hi-resolution monitor which I can buy today at Best Buy for $199. Come back in 20 years and even the basic e-bikes will be totally beyond anything we have today at a fraction of the cost. Too bad I'll be dead by then......

 

[calvin]

Although I bought my bike based on one of Court's video reviews, you can bet the next bike I buy will be one I have had a demo of. I am not going to purchase an ebike for 5-7k without one. Likewise, I wouldn't buy a car without driving it. If the ebike shop owner won't let me try it out, then I'm not buying it, period.

 

[rojagrande]

I stumbled on to this older post today, so I thought to shed some light on it and “the demo problem” thoughtfully because I can see some impressions that are not in line with reality or our policy and “the demo problem” is an issue that e-bike dealers and consumers face daily when in the market for an e-bike.

I’m the owner here at Motostrano and believe firmly in the power of e-bikes to change people’s lives and there’s nothing I like better than to hear how these bikes have transformed people just weeks from when they leave our store with a new bike. We’ve been selling e-bikes for 6 years or so. In my view that is a lot of “research” experience under our belt that we feel is warrant the trust of our potential customers. Over the years we’ve sold most brands, considered most brands and serviced most brands. We have a lot of knowledge to relay to you and though we’re not always the know-it-all, we have some real first hand experience that is worth your time.

We also do everything in our power to make the buying and owning process as wonderful as possible and one of the ways we accomplish that is by letting you try e-bikes before buying them. We do this in the following list ways:

• 2 store locations to serve you- Redwood City and San Francisco, each with a big sign outside that says “Try An Ebike Today"
• We keep a large inventory of e-bikes on hand for you to look at, try and buy
• We purchase bikes from our suppliers as “demo bikes” with special pricing programs for demo bike purchases
• We keep a designated fleet of demo e-bikes for you to try first hand in and around our store
• We keep a fleet of demo e-bikes that you can rent for daily and weekly use
• We stage monthly factory and store-sponsored demo events with support from our vendors and using their demo fleets
• Bring-the-demo-to-You appointments, where we’ll bring bikes to a trail or path of your choice
• Periodic meet-ups and rides in the local area
• Special order program, where you can back out at any time if it’s not the right bike for you

We’ve always allowed demos on many of our bikes and have more demo e-bikes and more e-bikes in our two store locations (Redwood City and San Francisco) than any store in the SF Bay Area. Currently, we have over 50 e-bikes on the floor. Appx 15 of those I’d say are actual demo bikes. Right now you can test out a Felt Lebowsk-e, a Haibike 29er, a Haibike Trekking, a BH Nitro, EVO Eco, Benelli, iZIP Path, etc. a bunch of others. We put an orange tag on the bikes that are “demo bikes” so you know what’s what.

Our inventory is always changing and our demo practices evolve too! On the plan is to have a demo van that we can set up around the bay area and beyond to bring the party to you. We are always open to ideas about new things we can do to get more people on bikes.

In addition to a full fleet of demo e-bikes, which naturally fluctuates and changes from month to month as we cycle through our inventory, we typically host one major store-wide demo event per month, lasting all day, heavily promoted, with purchasing incentives, featuring one of our brands or many of them. (in fact, we are doing a Valentines Day e-bike demo tomorrow at our store) Our most recent event (https://www.facebook.com/events/426409244173102/) was just this past month and was a huge success. These are promoted on our social media, newsletters and other outlets and I highly recommend getting connected with us so you can find out about them. At those events, our vendors will usually bring a fleet of demo bikes that have been put through tests already and eager for more. They are not for sale bikes.

Check out our Youtube channel to see video of some our past events. https://www.youtube.com/motostrano

And, if we can’t get vendors to join in, we do our own events using our own bikes. Events are key to bringing people in the store, trying and buying bikes.

In addition to these store demos, we will also “bring the demo to you”, as it were and in fact, if you are in the market for an e-bike and are a serious buyer and need to test out a bike exactly where you’d be riding it, or on a similar trail, we will actually load a bike or two in the truck and meet you on the trail or path and let you try our demo bike in your neighborhood or even up on a trail if it’s a mountain bike. We love doing this. Any excuse to go ride bikes and get out of the store is a good thing. We just ask that you are serious and committed to buying an e-bike from our store.

We have brought these demo rides to both individuals, families and corporations looking to buy in to e-bikes for their employees. We’ve had demo days at VW Corporation, at Apple Computer, UBER and even at BOSCH HQ in Palo Alto. I’ve brought fleets of e-bikes to hotels and to people’s houses on top of giant hills.

We also host rides out of our store or on trail from time to time, for owners and prospects. http://www.meetup.com

That said, we do not allow ALL of our bikes to be demo’d on any whim. It’s important that people have done some amount of research so that we don’t have to go through 10 demo bikes to single out a bike to purchase. Any store that allows all of their e-bikes to be tested and demo’d, putting miles and hours on the motor and battery, is shooting themselves in the foot and often screwing over their customers by selling used demo bikes as “new” bikes even for full price. Other stores do this, we don’t. There’s a lot of stores around our area that, when you see their “new” bikes, have upwards of 200 miles on them from previous sales attempts, all demo rides.

Unlike standard bicycles, e-bikes show wear and use differently. They have a speedometer. They have charge cycles. They have motors. A standard bicycle shows wear only on tires. E-bikes wear more like a car and heck, they are priced like one too! And customers don’t want to buy “demo bikes” when they are buying “new bikes”. If a customer is paying full price for a bike, our bike will have near 0 miles on it. Just enough of our technician to ride it around the block to make sure everything is functioning properly before being deemed “ready for sale”.

At other stores, when shopping for an e-bike, make sure the bike you are buying, if sold as “new”, is actually NEW. We know that many stores simply demo out their whole inventory and then try to sell at full retail. In fact, we have customers who won’t even buy a bike that they didn’t see come fresh out of the box! A bike that may have been set up yesterday, tested by themselves first today, is no longer “new” in their view, even though they were the first to test it.

For instance, if you want to buy a Haibike Super Race from us- a $7000 e-bike, but you want to first flog it around the neighbor hood and compare it to an EasyMotion 29er and an A2b KUO, we’re not going to let that happen. As your guide in this, our job is to help you narrow down what you’re looking to do with the e-bike based on what you say your needs are and also get you to test out bikes in real world conditions. So, instead of putting miles on a brand new $6000 ebike, we’d put you on a the same brand of bike using the same motor. Then, come back in the store and sit on the Super Race and get a fitting. If you are really serious about it, have cash in hand, we’ll often even bend this rule, but we look for commitment.

Is it possible to purchase an e-bike without trying it first? Absolutely and it happens all the time. We ourselves buy most of these new models without ever trying them and then reselling them of course. Customers do this too.

If you’re lost in the woods about what bike to get, we hope that we project some element of trust as to what might work for you. We ride bikes daily. Commute on them. Work on them. We know what works, what doesn’t. What comes back for warranty too much, what doesn’t. We know what to advise you on if you want a commuter, or a cruiser, or a do everything bike and you have a budget.

And, if we are recommend a particular brand over another and recommending saving up for higher priced e-bike, because we thinks it’s better, it’s not on a whim, it’s because we know you will be happier for it in the long run, because you won’t be bringing it back in for repairs and because we know it will live up to your needs and expectations. In fact, for some of those brands, particularly a BOSCH powered e-bike - we’ll even take it back within a few days of purchase if the bike didn’t do what we said it would. That said, we're not trying to up-sell you and if it's a matter of cash or budget then we work around that. But we're some times a little too honest too...

A lot of how we work depends on the feedback we hear from the customer, at what stage of the buying process you are in.

In addition to our demo policy we also now rent e-bikes. So, if you need to feel what owning an e-bike might feel like long term, you can rent one of our e-bikes. Of course, not all of our bikes are available for rent either, but many of our demo bikes can be rented.
Given our excellent inventory and liberal demo policy, one thing we are acutely paranoid about, however, is the practice of being show-roomed and wasting time on a visitor to our store who has no intention of buying anything at all. A percentage of the customer base, a small percentage, but still a nagging and real one, feels no remorse at all about taking up the time of staff in a store, perhaps hours of time, taking away time even from customers who are trying to buy things that day, putting miles on bikes, asking questions, returning multiple times, asking more questions, saying flat out “I’m’ going to buy a bike from you”, all the while only leading the store on and having no intention whatsoever about buying anything at the store. Either because they are eyeballing some used bike on Ebay, or Craigslist, or their company offers them a deal, or some small shop has said they can order something for them at a discount once they try out other shops’ bikes or they “just don’t do” Sales Tax and will not ever buy locally, even to the most respected local IBD that has the bike new on the floor at a discount including full warranty and free tune-ups. This all happens and through experience, we can often tell in advance who is serious about buying, has the spousal approval and the needed decisiveness to pull the trigger on something. Other times we can’t tell. Most times there’s no way to tell who’s actively show-rooming us until the hours have been wasted. Even the biggest of retail chain stores can’t afford to be show-roomed and we are far from big.

In spite of the fact that e-bikes have been around for over 100 years, E-bikes are a “new thing” for Americans. Not so much for other parts of the world, but we are slow to adopt e-bikes still and so many bike shops don’t know a thing about them. As such, and with the help of the internet, we find that there are way too many folks out there in a constant "research mode” and to be honest it makes for a tricky and often paranoid relationship between the consumer and the store. You want to test, review and blog about what you’ve checked out online, some times allowing for months of this research activity. We want to sell you what you’ve checked out online in the shortest amount of time possible. If you’re in “research mode” you’re not really that committed to the symbiotic relationship between us, the seller, you the buyer, yet. That’s our challenge.

There’s so many resources out there to assist you when you are in “research mode” that are free to use and don’t take up some one else’s time except your own. This web site is full of reviews, there’s a community, there’s videos everywhere. All great.

In my view, the best research you can do about e-bikes is to get out and own one. Take the plunge. Buy the bike. Take the risk that you may actually not buy the right bike the first time. It happens. It’s ok. If you get it right the first time then great and we dealers can help! We are asked often “what if this thing doesn’t work out for me, what do I do?” Can I return it? Although we don’t typically do returns, unless we made some specific guarantee - which we often do - we do sell bikes on consignment and fortunately the used market for e-bikes is excellent in our neighborhood. So, if you are afraid that if you buy an ebike today and it doesn’t work out for you that you’ll be stuck with it, that won’t happen. If you buy a $3000 e-bike today, treat it well, you could easily expect to sell it in just a few months for $2500, making that a $500 few month rental, which is a great deal and makes sense.

So yes. We certainly do allow demos. Come check us out and let’s ride.

And- RG- I would guess there was some mis-communication going on the day of your visit, because as you can see from others who've been to our store, demo rides are absolutely a part of our store experience. If you're still in the market for a bike, I'd love to help you.

Joe Witherspoon
Motostrano


View attachment 2172

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply. Not wanting to get any of your staff in trouble - they were all perfectly polite but none of this was explained to me at the time. I guess I must have come off as a "tire kicker" or curious newbie. I'm now quite a bit more experienced on the concept and understand some of the very issues I initially questioned. Hopefully this comes over as helpful feedback.
RG.

 

[Ann M.]

Hi @rojagrande Don't know what Motostrano's budget is like so its hard to say how much stock he can keep on the floor just for test rides. If these were also rental units, then he may have more flexibility about intense test rides. Having been in this industry for 14 years, let me share that the manufacturers have limited (if any) demo unit programs and those that do offer their dealers a demo program, prices of those units is almost as much as a new item. Yes, some companies have programs to split payments on product throughout the year; however, there's no real financing for the dealer or 'floor planning' as its called by the major bike manufacturers to make it so a dealer has lots of product. Its risky for the ebike industry. Its risky for the dealer. Production levels are much smaller than that of regular bikes and these manufacturers are also vulnerable to market availability of components and often build based on projected demand or their available finances.

Be patient, maybe the staff you worked with was not as practiced at helping you refine what it was that you were interested in testing. Experience has shown me that a potential customer who wants to demo 10 items and talk about 20 will walk out overwhelmed and maybe think its all impossible. It is the responsibility of the store staff to help guide you so that you can have a good experience with the shop and the ebikes. Realistically, most people have done a little homework, to have thought some about what their needs are before coming in, then I can better serve them. Some folks, though are not focused that way; its like a spontaneous combustion--they see ebikes for the first time and realize the potential for one in their own life- they just aren't sure where to take that 'WOW' moment. Then its the staff's responsibility to help someone figure that out, as I am sure that Motostrono is doing in his shop. If you had an awkward or unpleasant experience then let the store owner know. Shop owners need feedback too; we want to provide great service to you and every other customer and that is quite an individual experience. If we didn't get it right, let us know so we can do so in the future for you and others.

 

[Deleted member 803]

I have been to Motostrano 4 times. The first time I met the owner at his Redwood City location and he was very accommodating. I then came back for a demo day and he was gracious as well. The 3rd time I came back I dealt with a mechanic who seemed to feel that I was distracting him from his repairs: not rude but certainly not a sales person. I then phoned the manager of the San Francisco store (I think his name was John). He was terrific, enthusiastic, and had great follow up (he's a keeper from a customer perspective.). Overall, I'd rate Motostrano as a dealer that tries hard to please its customers. We are fortunate to have a few very good e-bike dealers in the SF Bay Area so I hope that the manufacturers do their part to create demand for e-bikes and keep these dealers going.

 

[Deleted member 803]

This all happens and through experience, we can often tell in advance who is serious about buying, has the spousal approval and the needed decisiveness to pull the trigger on something. Other times we can’t tell. Most times there’s no way to tell who’s actively show-rooming us until the hours have been wasted. Even the biggest of retail chain stores can’t afford to be show-roomed and we are far from big.


A lot of salesmen will say they just want a shot at a customer. The customer thinks he is in control, but the product sells itself, or whatever. If you take that attitude, you don't worry about showrooming.

I just think your industry, the retail side, has created a pretty unpleasant place, a rather dark and paranoid place. After the Haibike was 'bike of the year' I went and looked at one. It was clear that was all you could do. If you were drooling and hundred dollar bills were spilling out of your pocket, they might give you a test ride. Otherwise, the bike was in a glass case. Even though the US market for ebikes is tiny, it's being pushed to the limit by 'new and improved' drivetrains, automatic transmissions, higher prices. You say Bosch is perfect on another thread, and when people come back with comments to the contrary, you disappear. This is a pretty self-promotional post, on your part, FWIW.

I'll never go back to a retail ebike store unless it's the best deal, based on a price I know they will honor. I don't want people deciding what my prospects are, or just profiling me. Maybe these hyper-expensive bikes are too valuable to ride and leave anywhere, too precious to let people try.

You're in love with the idea of super expensive, super high-status bikes, bikes that very few people can afford. Do you study the less expensive bikes, looking for the best bikes? Do you work with the Chinese companies that supply much less expensive components? Can you summon the courage to mention any other bike than a Bosch drive?

I have a bike I paid about $1700 for. I bought it from a dealer, same dealer as had the Haibike. It's fine. It doesn't have an elegant drive train, but it's been perfectly reliable for a year.

Yeah, people. Anyone out there. Buy an ebike and learn what it's about. Even better, buy a nice reasonably priced one that really represents what ebiking should be about! I saw an older guy going up a steep hill on a regular bike last weekend. He was in real pain. People get out of shape. Ebikes can help a lot.

To categorize retail as a dark and paranoid place is unfair and just simply wrong. Like every industry, there are good and bad. To fault a dealer who tries to sell what he carries is myopic. And, any smart business man carries inventory that sells and unloads inventory that doesn't regardless of price. It sounds like you are a price driven buyer of e-bikes. This is perfectly acceptable but don't chide the entire retail industry for it. EBD/IBD's are, by their very nature, enthusiasts of bicycling and gravitate towards serving the enthusiast community.

 

[George S.]

To categorize retail as a dark and paranoid place is unfair and just simply wrong. Like every industry, there are good and bad. To fault a dealer who tries to sell what he carries is myopic. And, any smart business man carries inventory that sells and unloads inventory that doesn't regardless of price. It sounds like you are a price driven buyer of e-bikes. This is perfectly acceptable but don't chide the entire retail industry for it. EBD/IBD's are, by their very nature, enthusiasts of bicycling and gravitate towards serving the enthusiast community.

OP said:

Given our excellent inventory and liberal demo policy, one thing we are acutely paranoid about, however, is the practice of being show-roomed and wasting time on a visitor to our store who has no intention of buying anything at all.

The shops are dark if you can't ride the bikes.

 

[PowerMe]

Oh man... I used to live in Redwood City, CA and moved to the east coast over a decade ago. Long before eBikes ever were heard of. To think how many shops in the Bay Area there are to see, touch, and demo great eBikes in person. Sigh.... jealous!

 

[opimax]

I am curious where I fit in the demo, I am a pretty avid ebiker, rode about 7k miles last year all after work or weekends. I look forward to see/feel other ebikes. I have not found many to in my area but Stromner and Specialized. I look forward to visiting my uncle in Wisconsin every year. He lives near Madison (Lake Mills) i was hoping to go some Crazy shop and test ride a few. I am not going to buy when i go, i hope my Stromer still runs well enough . But I also have not ridden a a mid drive or any othe brands actually. Should i not go by the shop and ask to try a couple bikes? I may get some feel of my next bike by trying them but that is a way off. I tend to want a local shop since i have had my share of issues. On the other hand i get asked abouit ebikes a lot since I am out and about and enjoying chatting w/others about them.I think i sound like a tire kicker based on this thread and maybe I shouldn't bother them. then i can still say i dont know if i got a good feeling about their shop???

i am not trying to get a free rental but I would love to gain some 1st hand knowledge of other bikes ???

 

[DaveM]

I learned of a demo day at Motostrano a few weeks ago and signed up to attend. I demo'd several ebikes while on a several hour ride to a local park. This was my first time trying an ebike and I was very impressed. The owner, Joe, was very helpful and I was impressed with the shop in general. I returned a few days later and purchased a Felt NINEe. I couldn't be more pleased with the bike. I'll be bringing it in for its 500 mile service pretty soon. I live in the San Francisco Bay area and I plan to take it on a trip down the coast this Spring sometime.
Dave