Delimiting the 20mph assist

[Readytoride]

For anyone who used the easy delimiting hack of the 20mph assist by taping a magnet to the pedal, and turning the speed sensor to face the pedal - how did it go in the long run? Any problems? Did the motor engage as quickly as when the sensor was in the original position facing the wheel magnet, or was there now a delay before the assist kicked in? Were you happy with the results?

I did read of a few that used this hack, but there was little to no followup.

No interested in anything involving opening the motor to place a hack inside, but would like to know if Giant's dongle used by the bike shops for diagnostics could also delimit via the software.

Thanks!

 

[FlatSix911]

I went with the Bada$$ Box... easy to install/remove and no regrets.

Badassebikes Box - The simple Badass Box

The Badass Box will shift your electric bikes speed limit from 25 km/h to more than 50 km/h. The Badass Box is compatible with Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Impulse, Panasonic, Pendix, Specialized and Brose engines.

www.ebiketuning.com

 

[Readytoride]

Thanks, but ... the manufacturer does not ship this item to the US. I really don't want to place anything inside the motor, either.

But thanks for the reply!

 

[FlatSix911]

Thanks, but ... the manufacturer does not ship this item to the US. I really don't want to place anything inside the motor, either.

But thanks for the reply!

Don't give up... the Box clips onto the speed sensor and there are a lot of people who ship to the USA.

 

[Browneye]

It tried it, put it back. Works perfectly, fast as you can pedal, unbelievable speed.
Burned the battery and the brakes were red hot. LOL

I don't need to go that fast. But it's a fun way to unleash the PW motor.

The speedbox things just make it easier, and if you need or want to keep your speedo, some fix that along with derestricting them.

 

[Readytoride]

Thank you, browneye. I'm hoping what you meant to write was "burned through the battery"? Was that the reason you returned the sensor back to its original position? The diminished range? There was no hesitation as you started before the assist engaged that was in any way different?

I'm more interested in my own top end being 23-24mph. 19mph cut off is just...annoying. I use my Garmin GPS as my speedometer because my bike is equipped with the LED lights only RideControlOne (No digital display)

 

[Browneye]

Try it, it's easy to switch back. No delay, works just the same but goes up to 28-30mph.
Yes, it EATS the battery - I used about 30% in about 4 miles racing around the block, braking into corners, just to see how fast it would go. if you kept it on level 3 and kept the speed down you would likely be fine.
Greater speed makes greater wind resistance and the combination uses a LOT more watts/amps.

If you like it get a good rare earth magnet and glue it to the inside of the crank arm for a clean setup. The stock magnet from the spokes, stuck on the end of the pedal stud will suffice for testing. You have to get the sensor lined up and close enough to read it. If it doesn't, the center headlight-indicator lamp lights up red on the button-controller and the motor shuts down. The speed sensor HAS to be present for the system to work. But your crank moves less than half the speed as the wheel so your bike thinks you're going half as fast and just keeps making power.

If you search on youtube you'll find plenty of vids of guys showing how they set theirs up. It's really simple and effective. Just throws any speed and distance calcs off, so an external computer or gps like you say is the fix for that. I would lose my Giant RideControl app with this sensor-hack. I would get a cateye-computer thingie if I did mine.

You need a torx-security special tool to remove the sensor mounting screw. And it's lock-tited in there.

And you void your warranty, just fyi.

 

[Readytoride]

THANK YOU! Those were the answers I had hoped to get.

Totally understand the warranty voiding issue, and I'm balancing that with the want (desire) for a touch more speed. And understand the greater wind = greater effort from the battery correlation. I have an electric car, so know first hand what high speed can do to range.

Never heard of a torx-security tool before. And I thought I knew all types of screwdrivers.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

(It is the best to just buy a Class 3 e-bike... They are made for speed and the bike geometry and components -- everything from a sturdier frame through brakes, tyres, motor, electrical system to drive-train -- are engineered for high speeds... For example, the 48t chainring or an equivalent are standard so you can keep high speed at reasonably low cadence)
Just saying.

 

[tomjasz]

(It is the best to just buy a Class 3 e-bike... They are made for speed and the bike geometry and components -- everything from a sturdier frame through brakes, tyres, motor, electrical system to drive-train -- are engineered for high speeds... For example, the 48t chainring or an equivalent are standard so you can keep high speed at reasonably low cadence)
Just saying.

Adding a larger chainwheel can be problematic and stress motors too! Part of the fun for some is pushing the limits. Different strokes...

 

[Readytoride]

(It is the best to just buy a Class 3 e-bike... They are made for speed and the bike geometry and components -- everything from a sturdier frame through brakes, tyres, motor, electrical system to drive-train -- are engineered for high speeds... For example, the 48t chainring or an equivalent are standard so you can keep high speed at reasonably low cadence)
Just saying.

Yes, quite true on average. I am only considering delimiting my bike knowing both my motor and my bike frame are already capable. Carbon belt and 8 speed internal hub gearing drive = no chainrings, no chain, no derailleur. No weak links in the gearing. Have disk brakes as well.

I am assuming the internal gearing set to 8 speeds is going to be a mechanical cadence limitation on speed unless I have a generous amount of flat ground on which to ride. Which means I will probably face a cadence disadvantage trying to go beyond 25mph. My friend has 9 speeds on her Class 3 Specialized Vado. She said she had to go 25 the other day to keep up with her bike club group. I need to ask her about her cadence at that speed.

I have thought about adding a Class 3 to my bike collection, but my practical adult mind always intervenes to ask if this ongoing juvenile mindset that a bit MORE speed would be so sweet to tap every now and then, really is necessary for dropping a few thousand $ for another bike - that HAS to have a carbon belt drive and IGH - when a delimiting hack on my current bike, which I love, can be a quick inexpensive test case.

EBay has the Badass 4, Australian seller, ships worldwide. Cost is equalivant to a nice dinner out at an upscale restaurant. I'm debating....

 

[Readytoride]

Thank you to everyone responding. You are all giving me a wealth of information, and it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I am assuming the internal gearing set to 8 speeds is going to be a mechanical cadence limitation on speed unless I have a generous amount of flat ground on which to ride.

That's one of the reasons I mentioned. With my Vado 5, I can reach 25 mph in the 10th gear, 48-13 (gear ratio 3.69) at 80 rpm. Going into the last 11th gear (48-11, 4.36) allows me going past 25 mph from cadence of 68. I'm not sure what gear ratio your IGH can provide.

There is the next factor, which is the motor. All 20 mph mid-drive motors are not made to really give the boost or allow maintaining higher speeds for a prolonged period. That is why Yamaha/SyncDrive, Bosch, Brose/Specialized (but not Shimano!) come with the "Speed" versions of their motors, where cooling is one of more important factors.

Anecdotically, my hub drive motor in the other e-bike is unrestricted. I can easily get to 20 mph but not above (flat area ride) because the motor is too weak and my legs are not good. It is however very easy for me to maintain 23 mph on the Vado 5 because the motor and drive-train are proper for higher speeds.

I understand your reasons very well @Readytoride. You are irritated with the 20 mph limit and would like to occasionally be pedalling past the 20 mph at low expense. I'm with you! Especially as the only Class 3 e-bike that meets your criteria (belt, IGH) is the very expensive R&M HS.

Good luck!

 

[Readytoride]

Thank you, Stephan. I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I really would need more gears to really take full advantage of a higher speed. Having only 8 gears is as much of a limiter as the 20mph software controlled limit. I would really need 10 gears at the maximum to sustain the 28mph speed

Factoring in everything every one has suggested, I've decided over all that my best option is to try to buy the Badass 4. Sending a message to the eBay seller, but in the meantime if anyone can give me a heads up of a supplier that will ship a Badass 4 to the US , that will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Slow Rider]

Badass 4 works well, I used it for a few months. It really helps you in 8th and 9th gears on the Explore, letting you get your cadence up without hitting the cutoff wall.

I wasn't too worried about overstressing the motor because Giant used the same motor SyncDrive Sport in their Quick E+ bikes also and the bike isn't really geared for a sustained 28mph unless you like to maintain higher rpm's. The badassbox allowed me to hit my natural cadence between 70-80 in the top gears without hitting the cutoff wall. Chart below seems pretty accurate from my trial and error without the badassbox.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That is the best cadence vs speed vs gearing calculator site on the Web. See how a Class 3 e-bike is designed for speed:

The figures are for Turbo Vado 5.0 with 2" tyres and the two highest gears. While it is easy for me to approach 40 km/h (25 mph) in the 10th gear (and in Turbo mode), going past that speed means either vigorous spinning on the already "stiff" pedals in the 10th gear or mashing in the 11th. I'm able to get past that speed with at least mild tailwind or downhill.

Just saying. If the rider is not fit, riding above 25 mph can be challenging; going past 20 mph is however doable on a de-restricted Class 1 e-bike.

 

[Readytoride]

@Slow Rider, @Stefan - Thanks for those charts. The information is very interesting. I know I instinctively have a "sweet spot" where the cadence is just right for me to go indefinitely. Will have to start watching my cycling apps to see what that number is since I've never bothered to look at it before.

I do know from my Class 2 ebike - a converted 21 speed hybrid with a 250w front hub "officially" limited to 20mph, but actually has a 23+mph assist limit - that 23mph is the maximum speed I am comfortable going on the flat, and that's only if I'm in a hurry to get somewhere. The hybrid has plenty enough gears and chainrings, however, to keep the cadence down, even at speed.

The Badass 4 has been ordered. Should receive it by March 3rd.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Doesn't your e-bike's display show the cadence? I like the display of my bike for showing at least that. (Would love to see the pedalling power, it's not there though). I found my optimum at 78 rpm. Often pedalling in the 80's but when the cadence falls below 70 I know I'm tired and shift down to maintain good habits. I don't want to suffer from my knees

All the best with your experiment!

 

[Readytoride]

My Giant has the RideOne controller which is just LED lights. There is no digital display. Not a big deal because I use cycling apps on my smart phone, and a Garmin GPS for upfront time/speed display.

My prefered cycling cadence is pretty much all about the feel - adjusting gears to what feels right for my legs and knee, rather than searching for a number. I never had a reason to study cadence in a scientific way, and thus it never became part of a routine.

So I have zero idea what my optimum is, honestly. My benchmark is my knee. If it's happy with my efforts and my speed, then all is good.

But it might be fun just to see what my numbers would be... Next time I'm out for a ride, I'll pay attention to what the apps say about my cadence.

 

[Browneye]

Hmmm...didn't realize the RideONE Control app showed cadence. I'll have to look at that on my saved rides. I have about 20 of them in there now - it's pretty cool.
I like the app way more than I did in the beginning. And while I used to have to login every time to get it to work, it quit doing that - just connects now, and connects to the bike as soon as it's powered up. Very nice tool.