Creo power level on Garmin is rider only

[kattanm]

I'd always assumed the power meter reading I was getting on my Garmin, coming from my Creo, was rider only, not rider + motor. But, I saw some folks saying that power reading was rider + motor. So, I put power meter pedals on my Creo and rode with 2 Garmins: one reading the Creo, and one reading the power pedals. I varied the bike motor from off to full blast several times, and the message was clear. Creo reported power is rider only. I'm convinced.

 

[Ben J]

If you record rides with one of the Specialized apps, you can get rider power and motor power both. You might be able to access motor power as another parameter somewhere in the garmin (depending on how customizable it is)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You might be able to access motor power as another parameter somewhere in the garmin (depending on how customizable it is)

Not.

 

[mschwett]

I'd always assumed the power meter reading I was getting on my Garmin, coming from my Creo, was rider only, not rider + motor. But, I saw some folks saying that power reading was rider + motor. So, I put power meter pedals on my Creo and rode with 2 Garmins: one reading the Creo, and one reading the power pedals. I varied the bike motor from off to full blast several times, and the message was clear. Creo reported power is rider only. I'm convinced.

yes, the people who said that are idiots. you can tell in a split second by simply turning the motor off while riding. the "power" displayed by mission control or your bike computer does not change, which obviously it would if it was rider PLUS motor!

a more interesting question - how much off was the creo's power meter vs the power pedals?

 

[rochrunner]

On my Mastermind TCU with the programmable screens, I have one set up to show the Rider Power and Motor Power fields. The Rider Power of course matches what my Garmin Edge shows but I find the readouts interesting as it lets me get a direct indication of how the assistance is delivered while using the Microtune feature to bump it up and down 10% at a time. It's definitely given me a better understanding of the settings.

 

[kattanm]

On my Mastermind TCU with the programmable screens, I have one set up to show the Rider Power and Motor Power fields. The Rider Power of course matches what my Garmin Edge shows but I find the readouts interesting as it lets me get a direct indication of how the assistance is delivered while using the Microtune feature to bump it up and down 10% at a time. It's definitely given me a better understanding of the settings.

Very cool. You have newer Creo, or you were able to upgrade just the TCU?

 

[kattanm]

yes, the people who said that are idiots. you can tell in a split second by simply turning the motor off while riding. the "power" displayed by mission control or your bike computer does not change, which obviously it would if it was rider PLUS motor!

a more interesting question - how much off was the creo's power meter vs the power pedals?

Power pedals were nearly identical to Creo reported power, also surprised me.

 

[rochrunner]

Very cool. You have newer Creo, or you were able to upgrade just the TCU?

I have a Vado SL 5.0.

 

[mschwett]

Power pedals were nearly identical to Creo reported power, also surprised me.

that’s great. the accuracy improved a few updates ago - the same one where the refresh rate increased to 4 or so times per second. i wonder what they tweaked. my observation prior to the update was that it was typically 5-10% high, closer to 15% when using the motor, and occasionally dead on when not using the motor.

 

[GeoAZUSA]

I don't want to hijack your thread but...........I am having an "interesting" issue with my Creo and Garmin Edge 1040, and it seems like there are some knowledgeable replies here re Garmin Creo integration, so please excuse me.
I ride the same training loop quite often and have noticed the mileage on the Edge can be bang on or 8% less than what I know the route is. One or the other, no in between.
I have an unsubstantiated feeling that it depends on whether the Edge is using its own GPS calculation (accurate), or is it tied into the Creo calculation based on wheel circumference. But, I don't know how to isolate this.
I could tell the Edge that I am riding an analog bike, I guess. But I would lose power readings for sure and I'd assume cadence reading also.
Even if I went to bike shop and had them change wheel circumference, this wouldn't explain why it varies from ride to ride.
Are there Garmin Edge settings to prioritize it's own distance/speed calculations over what Creo says?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have an unsubstantiated feeling that it depends on whether the Edge is using its own GPS calculation (accurate)

I cannot say for Garmin (and would be interested to hear from Garmin users!)
I am positive about how Wahoo ELEMNT computers do work:

• The speed and the distance are taken from the rear wheel RPM/wheel circumference. You can test it for your Garmin: Lift the rear wheel (or hang the e-bike on a work-stand) with the Garmin connected and the motor on. Start the ride on Garmin and also start rotating the crank by hand. If the measurement is based on the rear wheel RPM, you should see the speed on the device immediately, and some distance after say a minute of the crank rotation.
• However, the ride map is recorded by the device GPS, and it might give contradicting values (that might be seen on Strava later). Upload your stationary "ride" to a sports tracker such as Strava. The distance "ridden" should be zero.

Let me give you an example:
Latest Wahoo ELEMNT devices have had a relatively long time to get the GPS fix after being turned on (now it is better and better but in the past it could take a Wahoo a minute or two to get the fix!) If I started riding my e-bike with Wahoo still searching for the satellites, the distance reported by Wahoo was correct on the device (as it was measured from the rear wheel RPM) but Strava only reported the ride length as derived from the device GPS!

Recently, I get the same distance ridden from point A to B over the same route using a Wahoo and riding Specialized e-bikes.

 

[GeoAZUSA]

Stefan Mikes Thank you for your reply and great idea! I put both a Specialized Creo SL and an Orbea Rise on a work stand and here are the results.
Specialized Creo paired to Garmin Edge 1040:
The speed and distance displayed on the 1040 is from the rear wheel.
Power (watts) is available on the 1040.
If I try to pair the Creo as anything other than an ebike, ie as a cadence sensor only or as a power meter only, it cannot be found. However, when paired as an ebike, Garmin displays 3 sensors AFTER pairing. Ebike, speed/cadence and power. On the Garmin, if you open speed/cadence sensor and then open sensor details it will allow you to manually set tire circumference. When I drilled down that far, it said 2096mm while actual tire circumference is 2197. A 5% difference that would account for most of my actual ride distance discrepancy.
Due to weather, it will be tomorrow before I can take a ride and see if it corrected.
It is possible in the Garmin 1040 to change a sensor "status" to "off" while still leaving it paired. If I do this to the speed/cadence sensor, the garmin GPS will calculate speed/distance but I lose my cadence display which is something I really want.

Orbea Rise: (which is also off speed distance by about 5%)
The speed and distance displayed on the 1040 is from the rear wheel.
Power (watts) is NOT available on the 1040.
Orbea must be paired as "Shimano Steps" not as an ebike.
Within the paired Orbea "Shimano Steps" sensor on the Garmin display there is only one sensor and nothing comes up in sensor details.
I cannot find a way to adjust the tire circumference in the Garmin 1040.
However, in Shimano Etube app, you can adjust overall percentage of what the Orbea reads by + or - 1 to 5 %. If I do that, the speed/distance is accurate.

Thanks again for your help and interest.

 

[Ben J]

On the Garmin, if you open speed/cadence sensor and then open sensor details it will allow you to manually set tire circumference. When I drilled down that far, it said 2096mm while actual tire circumference is 2197.

Ebikes used to have settings for that, but since speed limiting is a regulatory issue they've locked it down. That feature in the Garmin is kind of a big win if you care about odometry since you can't change it in the bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It is possible in the Garmin 1040 to change a sensor "status" to "off" while still leaving it paired.

I could not find a way to do it for Wahoo.

In Garmin, you can set the Wheel Circumference to Auto. It is exactly what you need to use the device GPS for the distance (please inspect all sensors!)

 

[GeoAZUSA]

Stefan, yes, wheel circumference was auto when it would be off by 8%

Today, using the manual wheel circumference of 2200 the ride was showing longer than it should by 1%. Previously, on AUTO wheel circumference it was 8% short.
Adjusted to 2178 and second ride was exact down to hundredths of a mile.

I measured the circumference with no weight on the bike, I guess the 1% is my weight flattening the tire at road contact thus decreasing actual circumference.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, yes, wheel circumference was auto when it would be off by 8%

Today, using the manual wheel circumference of 2200 the ride was showing longer than it should by 1%. Previously, on AUTO wheel circumference it was 8% short.
Adjusted to 2178 and second ride was exact down to hundredths of a mile.

I measured the circumference with no weight on the bike, I guess the 1% is my weight flattening the tire at road contact thus decreasing actual circumference.

Auto is using the GPS, which is not as reliable as you think.

1% is a perfect match!

Note: If you use Strava as the ultimate destination of your recorded rides, you can always "Adjust the distance" there. I have found it unnecessary. Whenever I go for grocery shopping the standard way, Wahoo gives me 7.5 km to the supermarket for either e-bike I own. (Based on e-bike data).

 

[TXPearl]

Power pedals were nearly identical to Creo reported power, also surprised me.

I performed a similar test of the power readings...

On my 1030+, I'm also getting Rider Power and Cadence in Garmin Connect.

As an aside, I tested the accuracy of the ebike's power data vs. my power meter pedals, and it was an extremely close match (+/- 1%). I tested in various assist modes, including no assist, and results were consistent. Note that I'm riding a Levo SL, but I understand it's the same motor as the Creo. So just know that your bike comes with a pretty accurate built-in power meter - that's usually a $500-$1000 add on. Garmin users can get live data on the head unit using E-Bike Edge MultiField.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Reviving this old thread to see if we have any new data on the accuracy of the rider power (Pr) sensor built into my Specialized Vado SL 5.0 with Mastermind TCU. This bike has the same 1.1 SL motor as the Creo 1 and likely the same motor-based Pr sensor as well.

Most earlier posts based on credible testing found that the built-in Pr readings were generally too high, though one member found them pretty accutate relative to his own external (pedal?) power meter. As I recall, @mschwett — as careful and experienced an observer as you'll find on EBR — initially found overestimates on the order of 15% on his Creo 1 (I think) but saw significant improvement after a subsequent firmware update.

My firmware is up to date as of last week.

Have no personal experience with other power meters. But I've read a lot about Pr in cycling and find the numbers I'm getting a little too good to be true — especially for a 76 year old with bird legs in so-so shape.

Consistency is far more important than high accuracy for my purposes — which don't include any kind of formal training. But I'd still like to have a sense of how much I'm being flattered by this bike.

Thanks!

 

[mschwett]

Reviving this old thread to see if we have any new data on the accuracy of the rider power (Pr) sensor built into my Specialized Vado SL 5.0 with Mastermind TCU. This bike has the same 1.1 SL motor as the Creo 1 and likely the same motor-based Pr sensor as well.

Most earlier posts based on credible testing found that the built-in Pr readings were generally too high, though one member found them pretty accutate relative to his own external (pedal?) power meter. As I recall, @mschwett — as careful and experienced an observer as you'll find on EBR — initially found overestimates on the order of 15% on his Creo 1 (I think) but saw significant improvement after a subsequent firmware update.

My firmware is up to date as of last week.

Have no personal experience with other power meters. But I've read a lot about Pr in cycling and find the numbers I'm getting a little too good to be true — especially for a 76 year old with bird legs in so-so shape.

Consistency is far more important than high accuracy for my purposes — which don't include any kind of formal training. But I'd still like to have a sense of how much I'm being flattered by this bike.

Thanks!

what kind of power readings are you seeing with the motor off? say, riding on level ground at 16mph with little wind and a steady HR in the 90-130 range?

my conclusion after quite a bit of mucking around with the data was that with the latest firmware and the motor off it was within 10%, but somewhat dependent on temperature and left-right leg balance. i pedal about 15% harder with my right leg (my balance shows up as 46/54 on a dual sided PM, on average) and so far the bottom bracket based PMs i’ve seen don’t quite get the total power right. if your output is more symmetrical and you have less temperature variation i’d guess you’ll be more like 5-10% off, but, again, with the motor off. i would have thought the clutches in the motor would prevent the motor torque from influencing the rider torque measurement, but that did not seem the case on my creo. maybe it’s the heat of the motor, which would jive with other variations i saw.

 

[Twowheelxtc]

If I compare my vo2 max reporting on my Garmin (calculated from power and Heart Rate) between my Creo and my Rubaix with a 4iiii power crank fitted they are always give an identical number so I would guess that the Creo power readings are reasonably accurate.