Countersteering

[Viking1]

This pretty much sums it up. At slow speeds you turn into the direction of travel, at higher speeds you counter-steer (or fight it through the turn and wish you had). My understanding of this was that it had something to do with breaking the plane of two gyroscopes, but physics isn’t my speciality. When I was riding heavy road bikes (700-830lb Harleys) counter steering was a must and no hands riding and a gentle lean for a lane change was the norm. On a bicycle, everything is slowed down and light weight (comparatively) so the physics are different (or maybe the same, but the conditions are different). And having already caught a pedal while in a fast turn, I have to agree that its best to stop pedaling for a momnent and get the inside pedal up, or you may have an unpleasant surprise in store. Scraping parts on a Harley was fine (and kind of fun); jamming a pedal into asphalt on a bike at speed is a bit different.

From a physics standpoint the reason counter-steering works is due to the rounded profile of a bicycle or motorcycle tire. Car tires have a flat profile. This rounded profile causes a difference in diameter of the tire size as the bike is leaned over.

 

[PCeBiker]

The way I understand it, is when you are going straight, you are balanced on the two contact points of the tires on the road.
When you steer the front wheel to the right, the contact point and balance point moves right so the bike wants to fall over to the left.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Do you suppose the difference might be frame geometry and center of gravity than your age?

I don't think it is geometry, as anyone else can ride any of my e-bikes hands-free only I cannot. I don't care though!

 

[Rich W.]

From a physics standpoint the reason counter-steering works is due to the rounded profile of a bicycle or motorcycle tire. Car tires have a flat profile. This rounded profile causes a difference in diameter of the tire size as the bike is leaned over.

I can accept that to a degree, but it doesn’t explain why counter-steering has an effect while traveling in a straight line. If you are traveling straight and level and push the left side forward (or pull the right) you will go left. Once in the turn I can see that you would have a slightly reduced rotating diameter, but the initial result of counter-steering input while upright is instant. So….?

Edit: PCe’ explanation makes sense and sounds vaugly familiar, from about four decades ago in a motorcycle training class.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Just watch the video.... it's explained well.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I think the cardinal difference is a bike (a single-track vehicle) can lean while the car cannot

Wikipedia is helpful.

 

[PCeBiker]

This is an interesting video.
No counter steering because the handlebars don't move.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Riding hands free for me often occurs after a long stretch in the saddle whether it’s on the road or trail. It’s nice to sit back and relax while you give those shoulders and hands a brief respite.

The key is to get yourself in a comfortable gear that you’re able to push and maintain momentum on your bike. I’m in total awe of my better half who is able to ride hands free on a roller trainer.

 

[Rich W.]

I think the cardinal difference is a bike (a single-track vehicle) can lean while the car cannot

Wikipedia is helpful.

Leaning is helpful but when counter steering (on a motorcycle anyway) its unnecessary. You can lean out of a turn (the “wrong“ way) while counter steering and and still glide through a turn just fine. The bike does the leaning for you once you initiate the counter-steer. But everything is different on a bicycle due to lower speed and lighter weight I’m sure. The same principles apply, but its different in practice.

And not to drag on the pedal thing, but I seem to recall waking up in a hospital on May 15, 1974, with a broken collar bone and countless stitches in my head where they put my scalp back together, resulting from catching a pedal on a very tight turn while traveling way too fast on my Peugeot 10 speed. So it’s something I try to avoid these days.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Leaning is helpful but when counter steering (on a motorcycle anyway) its unnecessary.

I thought the very idea of countersteering was to initate the bike leaning towards the turn direction.

 

[PCeBiker]

Edit: PCe’ explanation makes sense and sounds vaugly familiar, from about four decades ago in a motorcycle training class.

Yeah, that's where I learned about it.
Like what was mentioned, everyone does it to ride a bike, but when it was explained and we practiced how to do it, it was amazing how much more control we had of the bike.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

At slow speeds you turn into the direction of travel, at higher speeds you counter-steer.

The point of the OP video was that you always have countersteer a bit to turn a bike without falling over -- even at low speed.

The gyroscopic rigidity of the wheels (which fights any change in the orientattion of their axles in 3D space at speed) helps balance a little but is unnecessary. Gyroscopic precession of the front wheel also contributes in an indirect but non-essential way.

Cornell physicist Andy Ruina, a leading bike researcher, explains (and ultimately dismisses) the gyroscopic contributions in the video below. He also backs up everything in the OP video. Not the slickest presentation, but pretty convincing.

 

[PCeBiker]

Leaning is helpful but when counter steering (on a motorcycle anyway) its unnecessary. You can lean out of a turn (the “wrong“ way) while counter steering and and still glide through a turn just fine. The bike does the leaning for you once you initiate the counter-steer. But everything is different on a bicycle due to lower speed and lighter weight I’m sure. The same principles apply, but its different in practice.

When I took the motorcycle training course I had lots of experience on a dirt bike and I found it really strange (and kinda scary) to lean the bike over with me staying with the bike and leaning with it.
On a dirt bike, your tires are always slipping around, so you have to keep your body semi vertical so that you can counter steer out of a slide without falling over.
On a street bike, you have trust that your tires will stick to the road in a corner.

I'm still a bit uncomfortable leaning my ebike over. My old e-bike is a piece of crap and is eager to fall down but I'm slowly getting used to leaning more on my new e-bike.
I'm still really wary of anything slippery that might be on the road.

 

[Rich W.]

I thought the very idea of countersteering was to initate the bike leaning towards the turn direction.

The bike does lean - the rider doesn’t necessarily have to. You can lean your body out of the turn while the bike does the work.

Also I was unaware of low speed counter-steering until I watched the video, but now I realize I always do it, just to a lesser degree and without any conscious effort.

 

[PCeBiker]

The bike does lean - the rider doesn’t necessarily have to. You can lean out of the turn while the bike does the work.

That's how I road my dirt bike.
I would lean out and throw my bike around underneath me.
A street bike and rider stay as one.

 

[Rich W.]

That's how I road my dirt bike.
I would lean out and throw my bike around underneath me.
A street bike and rider stay as one.

I got pretty comfortable on my Harleys and got a little creative at times.

 

[PCeBiker]

I got pretty comfortable on my Harleys and got a little creative at times.

Yeah me too.
My foot pegs were spring loaded on my street bike (83' Honda 550 Nighthawk).
There's nothing like shooting sparks off the bottom of your foot pegs.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

So I guess you wouldn't enjoy cruising down a country road, throttle locked on the guzzi, sitting back on the pillion seat and stretching.....then noticing the cop car beside you? Good bloke, we chatted bikes for an hour and I thanked him for his version of the speeding fine.

Going off-topic to share my favorite speeding ticket of all time, and I've had my share. Had US 101 in the Northern California Coast Range all to myself early one fine weekday morning. The roadster flew through the never-ending 3D curves at 90+ mph the whole way.

When I finally got pulled over, the state patrolman walked up to one tailpipe, felt the ash, and said, "Runnin' pretty good, huh?" Sheepish reply: "Yes, sir. Curious, when do you pick me up?" With a big grin, he said, "Oh, about 35 miles back". He enjoyed the run as much as I did! Wrote me up for 10 over.

 

[PCeBiker]

Riding no-hands is a blast !!
Try it in a cross wind.
You have to lean the bike into the wind and keep your body vertical to keep going in a straight line.

Interestingly, when a gust of wind would hit me from the right, I would fall towards the right, into the wind.

It's probably the counter steering doing it's thing?
I would get pushed slightly to the left, causing my bike to fall to the right.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

This is an interesting video.
No counter steering because the handlebars don't move.

Thanks for sharing that! Did the California Superbike School on a Suzuki GS1100 ages ago. What a blast! Very professional.