convince me this bike doesn't exist!

[mschwett]

i have an electric road bike (specialized turbo creo) which i love dearly. adding a non-electric road bike to the stable as well.

... but my primary commuter is a vanmoof S3. there are many things about it which i LOVE - it's a brilliant design in several ways - but it has not been terribly reliable. it was very bad at the beginning, had to have several parts replaced several times, great for 9 months, now acting up again and i don't trust it. it's also pretty heavy for carrying up and down steps in the city, etc. i'd love to replace it with something as well integrated and full featured.

here are my absolute must/minimum criteria:
less than 40lb
frame dimensions appropriate for a 6'2" rider
able to easily carry a frame mount child seat (currently using a thule yepp next maxi for my 3 year old, she loves it, we ride everywhere)
gears, at least a 2x range from top to bottom, preferably close to 1:1 on the low end for hill climbing
35nm torque, 250w power, 250wh battery.
700c wheels
less than $5k
flat bar (i have a road bike)
integrated battery

and here are my "would really like to haves"
less than 35lb
IGH of some sort - rohloff, sturmey, nexus, pinion, etc. (the vanmoof has this but it's a crappy one)
automatic shifting and shifting while stopped (vanmoof has this, but see above)
belt drive or fully enclosed drivetrain (i actually have a belt upgrade kit for the vanmoof, haven't made the plunge of install yet)
50nm torque, 500w power, 250wh battery
integrated anti-theft / tracking (the vanmoof has this)
highly controllable power settings, AKA specialized's SL system, or vanmoofs combo of app and "boost" button

a few bikes that i'm aware of seem to come close:

• lemond prolog is very close, super light, but i doubt the seat tube can support a frame mount child seat.
• specialized turbo vado SL checks all the "must" boxes but none of the "would really like to haves" except for the weight and app, which make it a somewhat less than exciting "upgrade" from the vanmoof.
• ride1up roadster v2 is really interesting, but singlespeed and at that price i wouldn't trust it with my and my kids life at high speed. but i wonder if the frame and motor are good enough to replace the brake and drivetrain and have something cool.
• luna "fixed" stealth - very sweet design with a belt drive and torque sensor mid drive at 39lb, but i'm not sure that a 55t up front and 22t in the back would cut it for me on the hills with the 3 speed shimano IGH; the ratios don't look anywhere near what i'd want.
• ampler "curt" looks great too, love the design, light, standard components, but not available in the united states.
• cowboy v4 has a lot of the integrations / features as the vanmoof but is heavy, singlespeed, and i find the design clunky

any suggestions... or should i stick with the VM and hope the latest trip to shop sorts it?

 

[mschwett]

nice looking bike! but way over my weight limit! (55lb i believe)

 

[BlackHand]

Don't know anything about the brand, but it looks nice and minimalist at 33lbs with a large frame option.

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I've been kind of intrigued by this Hilltopper, but it's 44 lbs and 650b tires

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[Stefan Mikes]

@mschwett,
I'm quite surprised to hear you want to go anywhere below Specialized level
I don't want to convince you on Vado SL: You won't be able to mount a child seat on it anyway.

You might look to Orbea Vibe e-bikes though. With approximate weight of 31 lb, low power rear hub-drive motor (Ebikemotion X35 by Mahle), integrated 242 Wh battery, these e-bikes could check some boxes for you. It is however vital you get local support on any unicorn e-bike you are after on your quest.

And don't think you would get an IGH on a lightweight e-bike. The story of Como SL that indeed has an IGH and it makes it one of the heaviest Specialized SL e-bikes should tell you something.

 

[Dewey]

Desiknio Pinion Urban with the optional water bottle battery seems to meet some of your criteria, 35lb weight, IGH, belt, flat bar, 700c, etc. https://desiknio.com/pinionurban/
But it’s over your budget, I don’t know if the Mahle M1 hub motor can be unlocked for US Class 1, there is no US dealer for local support, the weight rating of the rack probably doesn’t hold a child seat, etc. Might want to ask those questions of their UK dealer Fully Charged who ships to the US.

The Cannondale Quick Neo SL 2 might be worth a test ride at a local REI store or Cannondale dealer. 35lb weight, uses the same Mahle ebikemotion X35 hub motor as LeMond and Orbea, integrated battery, 700c wheels, and there is a Remixte step-through version so you don't accidentally kick your child when mounting/dismounting. The Quick Neo SL 2 has an 11-36t 9-speed cassette and 1 x 38t chainring which is near to 1:1 low range gearing. You could attach your Thule Yepp Maxi frame mount child seat to the 31.6mm seatpost, and it has hydraulic disk brakes so it will stop when loaded up. It doesn't have a security system so I suppose you could add a 3rd-party GPS tracker or Apple Airtag.

 

[indianajo]

Sturmey IGH do not have reducing speeds, only speed multiplying ones. Have to have a 21 tooth front chainring to get 1:1, which mid-drives do not have. Also my Sturmey S80, the shifter pawl kept popping off after 500 miles, about every mile. I kept looking for a 28 or 32 Sturmey sprocket, not available. Over on mtb forum with the IGH threads, people report shimano 8 speed IGH to be a reliable ride with several reducing speeds. Rolloff has leaks.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

to get 1:1, which mid-drives do not have

So you say 38-51t (0.75:1) on, say, Giant Trance E+ is what mid-drives do not have? Or, 38T chainring with 46T on the granny gear in my Vado (0.83:1)? With 510% gearing in the first case and 418% in the second one?

 

[Marci jo]

Mschwett,
Your little one is fortunate to ride along with dad. I bet you both are having a blast.
Here’s an unusual idea: Have you thought about a tag-along bike for your daughter?
Yes at 3 years old she might be a bit small to pedal but not for long. And maybe there’s one with a child seat.
I saw this YouTube video that showed different types and also the appropriate child age.

Just something to think about.
Maybe a pic of the bike you find.

 

[Art Deco]

Mschwett,
Your little one is fortunate to ride along with dad. I bet you both are having a blast.
Here’s an unusual idea: Have you thought about a tag-along bike for your daughter?
Yes at 3 years old she might be a bit small to pedal but not for long. And maybe there’s one with a child seat.
I saw this YouTube video that showed different types and also the appropriate child age.

Just something to think about.
Maybe a pic of the bike you find.

Tag along bikes ... I didn't know these existed Golly, what will they think of next ?

 

[fooferdoggie]

we have the weehoo fits even little kids and no chance of falling off.

 

[Art Deco]

we have the weehoo fits even little kids and no chance of falling off.
View attachment 107019

And it's attached to your tandem! How long is the whole setup?

 

[mschwett]

So you say 38-51t (0.75:1) on, say, Giant Trance E+ is what mid-drives do not have? Or, 38T chainring with 46T on the granny gear in my Vado (0.83:1)? With 510% gearing in the first case and 418% in the second one?

i believe he means that with the sturmey, which has no reducing speeds, you need a very small front ring which a mid-drive probably can’t do because of the size of the drive gear. not sure if that’s really a mechanical/physical limitation or just that nobody makes them.

 

[mclewis1]

And it's attached to your tandem! How long is the whole setup?

I think he's into semi tractor trailer range. Any longer and I think the Weehoo will have to provide counter steering options.

 

[fooferdoggie]

And it's attached to your tandem! How long is the whole setup?

maybe 7 extra feet.

 

[mschwett]

@Marci jo @fooferdoggie those look like so much fun!

i don't think they'd work too well riding in the dense/congested/hilly city we live in, but i could see it being a ton of fun for more "open" rides on bike lanes outside the city. my youngest is OBSESSED with "helping" and doing things "by my self" so she would love pedaling her own bike safely behind me!

 

[m@Robertson]

@mschwett it sounds like you are describing the Luna Fixed. I used to own one myself.

• $1750 but if you are like me you will want to put in a proper set of wheels and customize bars, saddle etc. Saddle was actually pretty good but I had something specific (SDG Fly) I wanted to use.
• 39 lb
• 250wh battery
• Battery integrated into frame
• Gates belt
• Shimano 3 spd IGH
• 700C wheels (I had some wheels with DT rims built that were a bit wider and gave me a better profile and larger tires)
• 500w mid motor that is really more like peaking at 400w unless they beefed it up. Mine was one of the first batch and they said 400w back then.
• 35Nm sounds about right. Its not a powerful motor. Can't be with a 250wh battery. But it climbed hills surprisingly well in its lowest gear.
• Size L (which is what I had) will fit a 6'2" rider. Has a 33" standover. I am 6' with a 33 or 34 inseam and you can see from the pic how my seat was set up.
• Straight bars. I set mine up with extra narrow ones and bar ends.
• Torque sensing. No throttle. Stealth appearance. Hydraulic brakes work fine.

Child seat? The bike has rack bosses but what is essentially a flat bar road bike should never be considered for a child carrier, and certainly never was by any designer stressing the frame. I'll leave that to you to decide.

Its the only ebike I have ever owned that felt like a real bicycle. Ebikes are generally bicycle shaped objects only. but this one was essentially a bike.
Pic below is from shortly after I bought the bike. The album linked below shows the bike in its final form when I put it up for sale. Has the built wheels, different bars and stem, flatproof Conti tires.

Fixed

10 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[mschwett]

@mschwett it sounds like you are describing the Luna Fixed. I used to own one myself.

• $1750 but if you are like me you will want to put in a proper set of wheels and customize bars, saddle etc. Saddle was actually pretty good but I had something specific (SDG Fly) I wanted to use.
• 39 lb
• 250wh battery
• Battery integrated into frame
• Gates belt
• Shimano 3 spd IGH
• 700C wheels (I had some wheels with DT rims built that were a bit wider and gave me a better profile and larger tires)
• 500w mid motor that is really more like peaking at 400w unless they beefed it up. Mine was one of the first batch and they said 400w back then.
• 35Nm sounds about right. Its not a powerful motor. Can't be with a 250wh battery. But it climbed hills surprisingly well in its lowest gear.
• Size L (which is what I had) will fit a 6'2" rider. Has a 33" standover. I am 6' with a 33 or 34 inseam and you can see from the pic how my seat was set up.
• Straight bars. I set mine up with extra narrow ones and bar ends.
• Torque sensing. No throttle. Stealth appearance. Hydraulic brakes work fine.

Child seat? The bike has rack bosses but what is essentially a flat bar road bike should never be considered for a child carrier, and certainly never was by any designer stressing the frame. I'll leave that to you to decide.

Its the only ebike I have ever owned that felt like a real bicycle. Ebikes are generally bicycle shaped objects only. but this one was essentially a bike.
Pic below is from shortly after I bought the bike. The album linked below shows the bike in its final form when I put it up for sale. Has the built wheels, different bars and stem, flatproof Conti tires.

Fixed

10 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

View attachment 107021

glad to find someone who has owned one of these! it was pretty much the closest thing i could find too, but i've never seen one IRL. very similar design in some ways to the van moof, but a bit lighter, mid drive, belt. nice!

i'll see if luna has anything to say about a frame mount child seat. not sure about the geometry with the dropped seat stays.

how come you sold yours?

 

[mschwett]

Desiknio Pinion Urban with the optional water bottle battery seems to meet some of your criteria, 35lb weight, IGH, belt, flat bar, 700c, etc. https://desiknio.com/pinionurban/
But it’s over your budget, I don’t know if the Mahle M1 hub motor can be unlocked for US Class 1, there is no US dealer for local support, the weight rating of the rack probably doesn’t hold a child seat, etc. Might want to ask those questions of their UK dealer Fully Charged who ships to the US.

The Cannondale Quick Neo SL 2 might be worth a test ride at a local REI store or Cannondale dealer. 35lb weight, uses the same Mahle ebikemotion X35 hub motor as LeMond and Orbea, integrated battery, 700c wheels, and there is a Remixte step-through version so you don't accidentally kick your child when mounting/dismounting. The Quick Neo SL 2 has an 11-36t 9-speed cassette and 1 x 38t chainring which is near to 1:1 low range gearing. You could attach your Thule Yepp Maxi frame mount child seat to the 31.6mm seatpost, and it has hydraulic disk brakes so it will stop when loaded up. It doesn't have a security system so I suppose you could add a 3rd-party GPS tracker or Apple Airtag.

that desiknio is gorgeous! i'll reach out to Fully Charged for sure. thank you!

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

Love the tag along idea and options, Kazam WeeRide Co-Pilot Bike trailer when my daughter was younger and she learned a lot quick about biking, now she rides to school every day on her own bike and loves it! Note: We used a regular bike, I can't even imagine how fun it would have been with an e-bike, the extra boost would have come in real handy.

​

 

[mclewis1]

i'll see if luna has anything to say about a frame mount child seat. not sure about the geometry with the dropped seat stays.

A few thoughts, but no certain solution ...

I think the issue of properly supporting a child seat is going to be the biggest issue affecting your overall weight requirements. Traditional racks for panniers with the common 4 point mounting using m5 bolts aren't really up to that. All the commercial child seat compatible rack setups I've seen are built more robustly than that. So that all means a heavier rack, larger mounting hardware with reinforced mounting points ... and that leaves out the road bike/lighter weight commuter designs I've seen.

Yes, you don't want/need something as robust as a cargo bike but instead your requirements sound more like a solid commuter style bike that's been on a diet. There are some standards (which the commercial bike manufacturers rigorously adhere to) or commonly used guidelines for a child seat compatible setup which means a substantially more overbuilt setup than what you actually need. If I was in your situation (and my child wasn't pushing the upper weight guidelines) I'd consider building my own setup starting with a steel framed bike (so it already has extra strong mounting points), a good strong (name brand - likely something like Blackburn) traditional rack with high strength hardware (something like this - https://www.mcmaster.com/bolts/thread-size~m5/alloy-steel-socket-head-screws-8/).