Conversion ideas

[snipechief]

I would like to convert my 2010 Jamis 2 commuter to electric. The bike is aluminum and weighs approx 28 lbs. It has a shimano nexes 7 Internal gear hub. The brakes are linear type and stop better than any bike I've ever ridden.
My AO is East Tennessee. Very hilly with few flat areas. My normal ride is under 20 miles, but it would be nice to squeeze 30 miles out of it. I'm 6'-1" 220 lbs.
Since the front forks are aluminum I assume a front hub motor wont be to safe. IGH in rear so no rear hub motor. This leaves mid drives as my only real option. Do you all concur? I'd like 750 watt motor or bigger. The bottom bracket is 68mm. Let me know what system would be best. Also tools. The only bike tool I have is a Park crank arm puller, and chain breaker.
Thanks for your feedback.

 

[EMGX]

"Best" depends on what you want more than you stated. If you want torque sensing natural riding experience then the only current choice that I'm aware of is Tongsheng TSDZ2. The most powerful version is at the bottom end of what you listed at 48v 750w. I've have two, a 36v 500w version and the 48v 750w and installed them on multiple bikes including a 3 speed IGH and a Nuvinci N360 cvt. With an optional 10mm dished chainring the chainline has been very good with those hubs (as opposed to derailleur/cassette setups where in the lowest gear/largest rear cog chainline is always at least a bit iffy). Range depends on use but a 48v 10ah battery gives me more than 40 miles on hilly routes (total ascent ~2000ft in ~22 miles on a common ride from home) but most of my riding is in 2 and 3, occasionally 4 out of 5 levels of assist. Performance is similar to Yamaha PW-SE mid drive that I have on a gravel bike. Keep in mind that your 28# bike will become a 40+# bike.
If you can wait you might want to see how the new CYC photon mid drive conversion reviews pan out. It is supposed to be available by the end of next month. More than double the price of the Tongsheng but it might be worth it. I might be interested in one myself.

The only other bike specific tool that you'll need for Tongsheng installation depends on your current bottom bracket, cartridge vs loose bearings, in either case another $10 or so. Installation is very easy.

 

[indianajo]

You haven't said which IGH you have. Most of them won't withstand a powerful mid-drive motor for long.
New kits use 3/32" width chain. Older bikes have 1/8" chain. You might have to change the sprocket on the IGH, if one is available for that model IGH. Also a new chain.

 

[snipechief]

You haven't said which IGH you have. Most of them won't withstand a powerful mid-drive motor for long.
New kits use 3/32" width chain. Older bikes have 1/8" chain. You might have to change the sprocket on the IGH, if one is available for that model IGH. Also a new chain.

As I stated it's a Shimano nexes 7 speed IGH. not sure of chain size, haven't measured it yet. Thanks for the response.

 

[snipechief]

"Best" depends on what you want more than you stated. If you want torque sensing natural riding experience then the only current choice that I'm aware of is Tongsheng TSDZ2. The most powerful version is at the bottom end of what you listed at 48v 750w. I've have two, a 36v 500w version and the 48v 750w and installed them on multiple bikes including a 3 speed IGH and a Nuvinci N360 cvt. With an optional 10mm dished chainring the chainline has been very good with those hubs (as opposed to derailleur/cassette setups where in the lowest gear/largest rear cog chainline is always at least a bit iffy). Range depends on use but a 48v 10ah battery gives me more than 40 miles on hilly routes (total ascent ~2000ft in ~22 miles on a common ride from home) but most of my riding is in 2 and 3, occasionally 4 out of 5 levels of assist. Performance is similar to Yamaha PW-SE mid drive that I have on a gravel bike. Keep in mind that your 28# bike will become a 40+# bike.
If you can wait you might want to see how the new CYC photon mid drive conversion reviews pan out. It is supposed to be available by the end of next month. More than double the price of the Tongsheng but it might be worth it. I might be interested in one myself.

The only other bike specific tool that you'll need for Tongsheng installation depends on your current bottom bracket, cartridge vs loose bearings, in either case another $10 or so. Installation is very easy.

Thank you kindly, and thanks for the hands on experience info. I must be doing the right comparisons, because I came up with what you did. Ya I'm just going to wait and see about the cyc, and continue to gather Info and eventually build this Winter. Thanks again.

 

[EMGX]

Really nice bike BTW

 

[snipechief]

Even with torque arm? Just curious.

Torque Arms on Hub Motor Bikes

Hub motors put a lot of twisting torque on a bicycles drop outs, more than any bike was designed for. This is a special concern when running a hub motor on the front, because if your fork snaps, it…

www.electricbike.com

I have no idea. I'm here to learn.

 

[harryS]

I'd wait til someone with a CNC machine copies the CYC for $299. Just kidding, but it could happen. I'm guessing CYC is those two guys and a machine shop? Whatever they have to charge $950, which is not competitive in my opinion.
.
EMGX has given you a positive review on his TSDZ2 kits. and I believe that's all another poster Pedaluma does on his conversion business. I am still learning about mine, and on the fence. At max current my TSDZ2 pulls 12A. while my hubmotors pull 20-22A, and my BBSO2 middrive pulls 26A. That indicates it has half the power of my other bikes, which can peak at over 1000W on 48V while the TSDZ2 peaks at 600W..
.
I can ride my BBS02 middrive in level 1 and it puts out 140-160w. My hubmotors put out 100-120w in level 1. This is fairly low resistance pedaling at 12 mph. The TSDZ2 is about 60W. so I need to put in 40 more watts of leg power. That is the one reason I like it, because it's better exercise for me. If EMGX says it's equivalent to a Yamaha middrive then that;s good. I haven't tried using the max assist yet.
.

 

[harryS]

As far as hubmotors on front forks, I've done two of them and have not broken the forks and faceplanted. I do use torque arms, two of them on the front motors. The forks are steel, and both have disk brakes, so there would be both clockwise and counterclockwise force on the axle nuts. No one has put out a definitive recommendation on axle nut torque. I am using 24 ft-pounds. That's more than what I was doing by feel on my rear axle hubmotors.

The arms can be a single plate which bolts to a convenoent fastener. THis is a Bafang hubmotor. It came off a commercial ebike that had no torque arms, but the droputs were wide plates that weren't going to snap off.


Or they are your store bought two piece unit, This is o a Q100H motor, about 250-350w.


I've not been bold enough to loosen both axle nuts and see of the arms restrain the wheel. To my mind, they are giving the axle nut a bigger surface to clamp.

 

[snipechief]

Thanks for the info everybody.

 

[EMGX]

I'd wait til someone with a CNC machine copies the CYC for $299. Just kidding, but it could happen. I'm guessing CYC is those two guys and a machine shop? Whatever they have to charge $950, which is not competitive in my opinion.
.
EMGX has given you a positive review on his TSDZ2 kits. and I believe that's all another poster Pedaluma does on his conversion business. I am still learning about mine, and on the fence. At max current my TSDZ2 pulls 12A. while my hubmotors pull 20-22A, and my BBSO2 middrive pulls 26A. That indicates it has half the power of my other bikes, which can peak at over 1000W on 48V while the TSDZ2 peaks at 600W..
.
I can ride my BBS02 middrive in level 1 and it puts out 140-160w. My hubmotors put out 100-120w in level 1. This is fairly low resistance pedaling at 12 mph. The TSDZ2 is about 60W. so I need to put in 40 more watts of leg power. That is the one reason I like it, because it's better exercise for me. If EMGX says it's equivalent to a Yamaha middrive then that;s good. I haven't tried using the max assist yet.
.

Some of the difference in riding experience with TSDZ2 might be controller programming. I bought both of mine from ecocycles who claims they optimize programming vs factory programming. I'm curious if you've ever ridden a bike with Yamaha, Bosch or others of the standard proprietary systems for comparison? I'm not sure of what your numbers mean but riding with the TSDZ2 bike unpowered feels the same as riding the same bike with stock crank assembly (other than the added weight), there isn't any appreciable increased resistance. It seems that people used to more powerful DIY options like Bafang mid drives or hub motors feel that the TSDZ2 underperforms for them, maybe because those people prefer higher power cadence systems and that is their frame of reference.

 

[snipechief]

I'm new to electric bikes, so I only have my new ep-2 pro to compare to. Wasn't sure if I would enjoy ebikes, but now I know, and I'm hooked. I thought my biking days were over when we moved to the mountains 7 years ago. I tried , but just couldn't ride the long hills anymore. I all but gave up. Not to mention small 2 lane roads with no shoulders or bike lanes. That's all behind me now that I have a motor to help. Should have tried this years ago.

 

[PedalUma]

Welcome. @snipechief, Do your research but not endlessly or nothing will ever happen. Be good with good enough with your first bike. I make electric bikes in N. California. If it is helpful you can see photos of some bikes on Google Maps. Search for CA, PedalUma, Bike, Conversion. You have a wonderful bike for a conversion. The brake shoes can be upgraded to Mountain Shoes with twice the surface area. I have ridden electric Nexus 7 and 8 speed bikes for five-years. I ride a three speed daily. ONLY SHIFT WHEN COASTING. A TSDZ2 36 Volt, 350Watt is wonderful on these bikes. Hills are no problem. I live in a very hilly area close to San Francisco. Consider a wide single speed chain, these also come eBike specific, and consider dropping the size of the cog to about 18-teeth, 20-t for older ridders. This will give you more bite and speed, instead of spinning out. Here is the bike I am working on right now. I just installed those multi-surface tires. It had black slicks. This will be a very low cost to maintain bike. It is also curvey and comfy with a long wheelbase.

 

[m@Robertson]

Even with torque arm? Just curious.

Torque Arms on Hub Motor Bikes

Hub motors put a lot of twisting torque on a bicycles drop outs, more than any bike was designed for. This is a special concern when running a hub motor on the front, because if your fork snaps, it…

www.electricbike.com

Nope. There are too many instances of forks shearing that are not steel/chromoly. If you want to see lots of examples, you can do some digging on Endless Sphere, or just ask in a new thread and be prepared for an onslaught

The most common failure seems to be with people who try and use suspension forks. Torque arms or no. I've seen the entire dropout area shear off and the torque arms seem to only keep the rider from serious injury buy holding the broken fork together for just long enough to get off the bike.

I have done front motors myself and always with dual torque arms and always steel forks. I did - once after a failure and I had to ride the bike for transportation while I found needed parts - use a suspension fork. But I toned the power way down in the controller, never used throttle and was sweating a bit while I watched the fork blades pull forward and ever so slightly apart. It was a super cheap fork with steel dropouts (and steel everything, actually).

I'm actually building another front hub motor bike right now, although its sort of an improved copy of an earlier 2wd bike.

 

[snipechief]

Welcome. @snipechief, Do your research but not endlessly or nothing will ever happen. Be good with good enough with your first bike. I make electric bikes in N. California. If it is helpful you can see photos of some bikes on Google Maps. Search for CA, PedalUma, Bike, Conversion. You have a wonderful bike for a conversion. The brake shoes can be upgraded to Mountain Shoes with twice the surface area. I have ridden electric Nexus 7 and 8 speed bikes for five-years. I ride a three speed daily. ONLY SHIFT WHEN COASTING. A TSDZ2 36 Volt, 350Watt is wonderful on these bikes. Hills are no problem. I live in a very hilly area close to San Francisco. Consider a wide single speed chain, these also come eBike specific, and consider dropping the size of the cog to about 18-teeth, 20-t for older ridders. This will give you more bite and speed, instead of spinning out. Here is the bike I am working on right now. I just installed those multi-surface tires. It had black slicks. This will be a very low cost to maintain bike. It is also curvey and comfy with a long wheelbase

Welcome. @snipechief, Do your research but not endlessly or nothing will ever happen. Be good with good enough with your first bike. I make electric bikes in N. California. If it is helpful you can see photos of some bikes on Google Maps. Search for CA, PedalUma, Bike, Conversion. You have a wonderful bike for a conversion. The brake shoes can be upgraded to Mountain Shoes with twice the surface area. I have ridden electric Nexus 7 and 8 speed bikes for five-years. I ride a three speed daily. ONLY SHIFT WHEN COASTING. A TSDZ2 36 Volt, 350Watt is wonderful on these bikes. Hills are no problem. I live in a very hilly area close to San Francisco. Consider a wide single speed chain, these also come eBike specific, and consider dropping the size of the cog to about 18-teeth, 20-t for older ridders. This will give you more bite and speed, instead of spinning out. Here is the bike I am working on right now. I just installed those multi-surface tires. It had black slicks. This will be a very low cost to maintain bike. It is also curvey and comfy with a long wheelbase.

I'm from Eureka,CA born and raised. That's where I've been riding forever. I know the area you live in. I was just there a few months ago. Enjoy the weather there this Winter. Definitely warmer than Antarctica er I mean E.TN. ;-)>

 

[m@Robertson]

I'd wait til someone with a CNC machine copies the CYC for $299. Just kidding, but it could happen. I'm guessing CYC is those two guys and a machine shop? Whatever they have to charge $950, which is not competitive in my opinion.

Well, a BBSHD with proper chainring and crankarms runs about $850 at the lowest-cost reliable source, and $950 from probably the best USA source. $950 is right in line for a high end motor which the Proton appears to be.

Those two guys are just reviewers and Youtubers. They aren't CYC, which is a fairly well-established company thats known for being just about the sole innovator that is alive to tell about it when it comes to the DIY market. I have a gen1 version of their X1 Stealth motor hooked up to a BAC800 controller and I saw it pumping out 4 kw on a function test at 40 amps before I chickened out and decided that was plenty good enough.

The Photon is a BBS02 level system that is more than likely going to prove to be a winner. CYC's only thing they need to prove to the market revolves around the controller. We'll know soon enough as there's a rich user community that pulls no punches - and CYC has been remarkably responsive to it.

I would give that motor a year to get past gen1. As nice as it is likely going to be (all we have to do is look at the changes from gen1 to gen3 of the Stealth motor for an idea of whats possible) you don't want to be relying on a v1.0 product.

 

[snipechief]

Excellent advise. I'm not going to rush with this conversion.

 

[PedalUma]

Definitely warmer than Antarctica

I just drilled for the display and the motor is in. Yesterday our town was invaded by water by thirty or more witches on paddle boards.

 

[m@Robertson]

Excellent advise. I'm not going to rush with this conversion.

Something to also consider... it might have been brought up already... thats an older bike whose frame construction is more along the lines of a road bike rather than an mtb. You have to be cognizant of the strength of your stays - both seat and chain. That rear triangle, subject to a shipload of torque, could suffer badly from too much of it. I am a big fan of using the BBSHD and toning it down so its power output is WAY down from its potential max of about 1750w on a 52v pack, but in your caseyou may be better served by doing a lighter weight, lower power motor period, since between the frame strength and the IGH's known limits, you could be asking for trouble.

For tried and true economical power, the BBS02 would be my go-to, unless I could rely on some guru assistance for properly setting up a TSDZ2. The '02 is going to be the generic winner in terms of available aftermarket parts and breadth of advice already out there. Get the programming cable and dial it back a few amps. Then dial down its pedal assist and other settings so its kinder/gentler all around. Stuff like jerky, too-strong power engagement are things that come free of charge with the Bafang factory settings. This article was meant for the 'HD but it works just fine for the '02 as well. I know guys who have done actual road bikes and who want minimal assist and they are thrilled with their '02 installs on their 1990's road bikes.

BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist

(But Not For The Throttler) There is a follow-on to this article that tinkers with these settings a bit further. In August 2023 I published another update that passed along what I’m doing dif…

talesontwowheels.com

One area where that Photon could shine in a way the BBS02 cannot manage: Chain line. You have an IGH and straight chain line is something you have to have. Its also something you have to struggle with on any Bafang installation. Your bike may not work with one, period. But the CYC Photon was designed to solve the chainline issue known to occur with this style of motor. Whats the story with a TSDZ2 and chainline? If its similar (the secondary gear housing moves the chainline WAY outboard) then that little Photon starts looking pretty good v1.0 or not.

Look into joining the CYC user group. Thats where you get most of the inside dope. And Matt Bzura of Bicycle Motor Works already has multiple videos up on his Facebook page of a Photon in action. He fell off on his first ride but he just posted a second.

 

[snipechief]

Something to also consider... it might have been brought up already... thats an older bike whose frame construction is more along the lines of a road bike rather than an mtb. You have to be cognizant of the strength of your stays - both seat and chain. That rear triangle, subject to a shipload of torque, could suffer badly from too much of it. I am a big fan of using the BBSHD and toning it down so its power output is WAY down from its potential max of about 1750w on a 52v pack, but in your caseyou may be better served by doing a lighter weight, lower power motor period, since between the frame strength and the IGH's known limits, you could be asking for trouble.

For tried and true economical power, the BBS02 would be my go-to, unless I could rely on some guru assistance for properly setting up a TSDZ2. The '02 is going to be the generic winner in terms of available aftermarket parts and breadth of advice already out there. Get the programming cable and dial it back a few amps. Then dial down its pedal assist and other settings so its kinder/gentler all around. Stuff like jerky, too-strong power engagement are things that come free of charge with the Bafang factory settings. This article was meant for the 'HD but it works just fine for the '02 as well. I know guys who have done actual road bikes and who want minimal assist and they are thrilled with their '02 installs on their 1990's road bikes.

BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist

(But Not For The Throttler) There is a follow-on to this article that tinkers with these settings a bit further. In August 2023 I published another update that passed along what I’m doing dif…

talesontwowheels.com

One area where that Photon could shine in a way the BBS02 cannot manage: Chain line. You have an IGH and straight chain line is something you have to have. Its also something you have to struggle with on any Bafang installation. Your bike may not work with one, period. But the CYC Photon was designed to solve the chainline issue known to occur with this style of motor. Whats the story with a TSDZ2 and chainline? If its similar (the secondary gear housing moves the chainline WAY outboard) then that little Photon starts looking pretty good v1.0 or not.

Look into joining the CYC user group. Thats where you get most of the inside dope. And Matt Bzura of Bicycle Motor Works already has multiple videos up on his Facebook page of a Photon in action. He fell off on his first ride but he just posted a second.

Thanks for the info, it all makes since, and the durability of my bike is a bit of a concern. The chain stay on the right side does have a preformed (dimple ) near the crank ring. I'm still not convinced I have the right donor bike. I may look at something else. Thanks again for the in depth assessment.