Consumer Reports: Ebike Fires

[retiredNH]

Thankfully, most of the devices above are small and less likely to burn your house down than an e-bike battery fire would.

I don't think that's the whole story. True, an ebike battery, being bigger, will likely burn longer and hotter than a cell phone battery, but a cell phone battery can still act as an ignition source and burn your house down, if it failed. But most of the batteries in the things I (and others ) listed are made by name brand companies with decent quality control standards (and decent BMS...) so (I think...) damaging fires are much rarer.

Note, for example, how the concerns of airlines for smartphone and computer battery fires have decreased in the past few years.

 

[6zfshdb]

I don't think that's the whole story. True, an ebike battery, being bigger, will likely burn longer and hotter than a cell phone battery, but a cell phone battery can still act as an ignition source and burn your house down, if it failed. But most of the batteries in the things I (and others ) listed are made by name brand companies with decent quality control standards (and decent BMS...) so (I think...) damaging fires are much rarer.

Note, for example, how the concerns of airlines for smartphone and computer battery fires have decreased in the past few years.

If you note my post, I didn't say a small device couldn't burn down a house, just less likely.

 

[J.R.]

Here's a challenge...
Count all of the rechargeable devices in your life.

I have dozens of multi cell devices. I have 12 tool packs, 4 ebike packs, laptop, the list goes on and on.

I'm reconsidering my need for so many cordless devices. When I was a kid I mowed my grandparents lawn with a corded electric lawnmower and when I bought my first house I had a corded electric string trimmer. They use the same power grid to run with zero chance of fire and far less toxic waste. Were these so bad to use? My property is too large for corded lawn equipment, but I can get along with fewer convenience devices.

 

[Gordon71]

I have dozens of multi cell devices. I have 12 tool packs, 4 ebike packs, laptop, the list goes on and on.

I'm reconsidering my need for so many cordless devices. When I was a kid I mowed my grandparents lawn with a corded electric lawnmower and when I bought my first house I had a corded electric string trimmer. They use the same power grid to run with zero chance of fire and far less toxic waste. Were these so bad to use? My property is too large for corded lawn equipment, but I can get along with fewer convenience devices.

I have dozens of multi cell devices. I have 12 tool packs, 4 ebike packs, laptop, the list goes on and on.

I'm reconsidering my need for so many cordless devices. When I was a kid I mowed my grandparents lawn with a corded electric lawnmower and when I bought my first house I had a corded electric string trimmer. They use the same power grid to run with zero chance of fire and far less toxic waste. Were these so bad to use? My property is too large for corded lawn equipment, but I can get along with fewer convenience devices.

No they are not bad to use. I still buy and use corded. Lawnmower, String Trimer, poll saw, and blower. Not only are they a fraction of the cost of battery power, they are all more powerful than battery power and I won't have to spend a pile of money to replace batteries (assuming they are still available) when they fail.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I have dozens of multi cell devices. I have 12 tool packs, 4 ebike packs, laptop, the list goes on and on.

I'm reconsidering my need for so many cordless devices. When I was a kid I mowed my grandparents lawn with a corded electric lawnmower and when I bought my first house I had a corded electric string trimmer. They use the same power grid to run with zero chance of fire and far less toxic waste. Were these so bad to use? My property is too large for corded lawn equipment, but I can get along with fewer convenience devices.

Just that I generally have on my person, I usually have 4 or 5 such devices all the time. My overall list would be at least as long as those already posted, and generally very similar. Never had a fire or anything close. Knock on wood. The thing is, store-bought, name brand rechargeable batteries are very safe. Can they cause problems? Yes, but mostly in theory. There are probably dozens of at least as risky things we deal with every day. Now, DIY batteries, or bargain batteries from China or EBay, are something more to worry about.

As for 120v electric lawn mowers, I'd be afraid I run over the cord and electrocute myself. I'm sure some would argue that's an unreasonable fear. The point remains, with all of the dozens of rechargeable batteries we each have and the billions of batteries out there, these batteries are very safe.

I guess some people won't get close to a Tesla or a Prius. They are relatively atomic compared to a bike battery. And yes, they do catch fire occasionally. So do gasoline automobiles....

I'm sure I have unfounded fears, and even unfounded confidence in some things. I'll continue to use normal care and precautions with batteries. That's what I do when I handle my chainsaw, my letter opener, and when taking a shower....

TT

 

[DaveMatthews]

Awareness + reality makes us able to make good decisions.

 

[PedalUma]

I deal mostly with the internal 'boutique' division of a large manufacturer who makes batteries for all market segments. If a bike company wants to push down price with generic cells and shoddy BMS they will produce that product because that is much of the market. That segment is just too big. It is like junk food. People want it. You can't make people listen to good music or eat good food when they demand crap. People want cheap batteries.

 

[Neverlost99]

The UK is reporting a significant increase in battery fires, 150% increase this year.

"These new transport devices caused 167 fires in the UK last year compared to 67 in 2020, according to Zurich's FOI data.

In June, 2022, 60 London firefighters were needed to tackle a blaze on the 12th floor of a tower block in Shepherd's Bush, West London caused by a faulty e-bike battery.

In July, 2022, five people in Walthamstow, East London, were hospitalised by a fire started by an e-bike.

In November, 2022, an exploding e-scooter battery set a Hampshire house alight."

Christmas warning over life-threatening fires caused by trendy present

Fires sparked by e-scooters and e-bikes powered by lithium batteries have sky rocketed 149% according to Zurich Insurers' FOI data.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I think the issue is nearly universal to a degree. The causes are certainly multifaceted; cheap imports, poor charging practices, DIY repairs and hacks by ilinformed individuals and home made packs.

According to my son who lives in London there’s just so many illegal aliens riding stolen bikes should’ve been hacked into E bikes in some back alley that is just a matter of time before a massive fire kills people. He was looking for his stolen very expensive carbon bike and wandered into a chop shop were very undocumented looking people were building batteries and creating Frankenstein type bikes because food delivery is the only thing these poor immigrants can do and stay under the radar.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I deal mostly with the internal 'boutique' division of a large manufacturer who makes batteries for all market segments. If a bike company wants to push down price with generic cells and shoddy BMS they will produce that product because that is much on the market. That segment is just too big. It is like junk food. People want it. You can't make people listen to good music or eat good food when they demand crap. People want cheap batteries.

Good point. You can just about make people use unleaded gasoline. Maybe it would be possible to impose some sort of enforceable safety regulations on the battery industry. Or figure out how to hold crap battery makers and users accountable. I can only imagine how difficult either of those things might be to do. The latter largely because it seems a bike battery is just a bike battery to most fire investigators. When there's nothing left but ashes that may be understandable but a good starting point would be to differentiate between (for lack of better terms) quality batteries and cheap after-market or DIY batteries. I would love to see the statistical difference of fire caused by each. Those statistics don't exist, best I can tell.

TT

 

[PedalUma]

Good point. You can just about make people use unleaded gasoline. Maybe it would be possible to impose some sort of enforceable safety regulations on the battery industry. Or figure out how to hold crap battery makers and user accountable. I can only imagine how difficult either of those things might be to do. The latter largely because it seems a bike battery is just a bike battery to most fire investigators. When there's nothing left but ashes that may be understandable but a good starting point would be to differentiate between (for lack of better terms) quality batteries and cheap after-market or DIY batteries. I would love to see the statistical difference if fire caused by each. Those statistics don't exist, best I can tell.

TT

@Art Deco had two Specilaized Comos. One is suspected by investigators of burning down his house. The finishing touches of the rebuilt home are happening right now. It is a corporate lawyer war. I suspect it was because some accountant wanted to save a couple of bucks per unit and maximize profit. Marketers know that no one sees the inside of a battery. The bike's color is more important to most buyers. I hope he jumps in to correct me where I am off base here. He has a lot to contribute to this thread.

 

[J.R.]

Just that I generally have on my person, I usually have 4 or 5 such devices all the time. My overall list would be at least as long as those already posted, and generally very similar. Never had a fire or anything close. Knock on wood. The thing is, store-bought, name brand rechargeable batteries are very safe. Can they cause problems? Yes, but mostly in theory. There are probably dozens of at least as risky things we deal with every day. Now, DIY batteries, or bargain batteries from China or EBay, are something more to worry about.

As for 120v electric lawn mowers, I'd be afraid I run over the cord and electrocute myself. I'm sure some would argue that's an unreasonable fear. The point remains, with all of the dozens of rechargeable batteries we each have and the billions of batteries out there, these batteries are very safe.

I guess some people won't get close to a Tesla or a Prius. They are relatively atomic compared to a bike battery. And yes, they do catch fire occasionally. So do gasoline automobiles....

I'm sure I have unfounded fears, and even unfounded confidence in some things. I'll continue to use normal care and precautions with batteries. That's what I do when I handle my chainsaw, my letter opener, and when taking a shower....

TT

Fear and concern are very different emotions and motivators in people. I have concerns and I research what we are doing about these concerns. In my opinion we aren't doing enough for what we currently have. And we aren't teaching best practices to the masses. We also have few controls on importation of most battery powered consumer goods.

I dislike nanny regulations for many things. For 40+ years I've been in manufacturing and industrial services as a tech, production employee and a production manager, I'm hazmat certified in dangerous materials handling and in this arena regulations are needed and important. I've never seen anything like this with other dangerous goods. There are tighter controls on domestic sealed lead acid batteries (SLA car batteries). There are states that ban chemicals like oil based paints, solvents like MEK (methyl ethyl keytone) and others to be sold over the counter. You can't even buy a normal gas can anymore, but if you bring in a container of ebikes or batteries, they are classed as consumer goods. They just let them into the country to be sold to anyone, whether they are fit for purpose or not. Even a Ryobi, Makita, Dewalt battery tool is UL Certified.

My concerns aren't just related to fire. Safety, quality, value, sustainability, source and end of useful life solutions are just some of the issues. I also don't want these issues to hurt the ebike movement or access.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Fear and concern are very different emotions and motivators in people. I have concerns and I research what we are doing about these concerns. In my opinion we aren't doing enough for what we currently have. And we aren't teaching best practices to the masses. We also have few controls on importation of most battery powered consumer goods.

I dislike nanny regulations for many things. For 40+ years I've been in manufacturing and industrial services as a tech, production employee and a production manager, I'm hazmat certified in dangerous materials handling and in this arena regulations are needed and important. I've never seen anything like this with other dangerous goods. There are tighter controls on domestic sealed lead acid batteries (SLA car batteries). There are states that ban chemicals like oil based paints, solvents like MEK (methyl ethyl keytone) and others to be sold over the counter. You can't even buy a normal gas can anymore, but if you bring in a container of ebikes or batteries, they are classed as consumer goods. They just let them into the country to be sold to anyone, whether they are fit for purpose or not. Even a Ryobi, Makita, Dewalt battery tool is UL Certified.

My concerns aren't just related to fire. Safety, quality, value, sustainability, source and end of useful life solutions are just some of the issues. I also don't want these issues to hurt the ebike movement or access.

We seem to be more in agreement than we understood in the past. Especially if we can agree that there is, and should be, a major distinction between top-tier, original manufacturer batteries and, for lack of a better word, cheap batteries on the market from secondary and tertiary vendors. Again, I wish there was a way to know what kind of batteries cause fires, etc. And I'm not saying the best battery in the world can't cause problems, but I'll bet those problems are way off at the end of the bell curve compared to "cheap" batteries.

Another thing to hope for is better battery technology. Better in all ways, including safety and price. One of the big things driving this issue is that good batteries are expensive. Too expensive for many people. It seems like an obvious choice to some people, I'm sure, to choose a $250 battery instead of an $800 battery.

TT

 

[PedalUma]

$800 battery

I agree. And some $900+ batteries are 70% or more profit. It is the mystique of brand. They are made in the same exact factory with the same materials as a $450 battery. They are like a Gucci sock. This one is $135 for the left.

 

[retiredNH]

I agree. And some $900+ batteries are 70% or more profit. It is the mystic of brand. They are made in the same exact factory with the same materials as a $450 battery. They are like a Gucci sock. This one is $135 for the left.

I don't agree.
It's much more complicated than just 70% profit. Some brands are fashion brands, with influencers and all the rest in our celebrity focused world. But "fashion brands" for bike batteries? I don't think so. I also doubt name brand batteries are made in the same factories as the cheap no name Asian imports.
The "same factory" concept does apply to some consumer products such as cereal and canned goods, (think store brands vs nationally advertised brands), but batteries????

Back to the original topic. Residential fires are all to common, so we don't hear much about their causes, unless the fire is a rare unicorn, like when an ebike battery is suspected. It's entirely possible that the batteries aren't as dangerous as we on this board think, given how many bikes there now are and how few fires are being reported with an ebike battery source. IDK, but something to pay attention to. After all, we live in a media echo chamber, where the same event will be reported multiple times in multiple ways as long as it gets clicks...

 

[Gordon71]

If a battery burns there is nothing left to analyze to determine if it was the battery or human error. Was it damaged and they tried to charge it anyway? Were they using the wrong charger? Seems to be too many variables to blame it on an inexpensive battery if there is no way to determine why it burned in the first place.

 

[PedalUma]

Here is an Orbea battery that is 36V, 5.777Ah and 208Wh. It is made in a large Chinese factory that makes many other batteries and it lists for $649. It is proprietary and brand named like Gucci socks. There is nothing special about it. It is like Hormel Vs Store brand canned Chili.

X35 RANGE EXTENDER KIT

X35 Range Extender Kit

www.orbea.com

 

[Tars Tarkas]

If a battery burns there is nothing left to analyze to determine if it was the battery or human error. Was it damaged and they tried to charge it anyway? Were they using the wrong charger? Seems to be too many variables to blame it on an inexpensive battery if there is no way to determine why it burned in the first place.

I said that above. But sometimes there are identifiable remains and, for whatever good it might do, investigators can ask the people involved.

It may not be possible to know the difference after a fire, but there are good batteries and there are bad batteries (over-generalized), and they are two very different things in terms of likelihood of starting a fire. Again, a dumb generalization, but some people die and some people are murdered. What''s going on with bike batteries is like saying everyone who dies was murdered. Or if I'm in accident in my car, I must have been drunk, because we all know drunk people cause accidents. Could have been road conditions, mechanical failure, a hundred other things, or even the other guy's fault. With bike battery fires, all we know is "bike battery fire". Best I can tell, no one looks any further.

TT

 

[Gordon71]

Perhaps I'm not remembering it correctly but the stories I read seem to be about some enterprise where someone is charging a bunch of batteries at the same time rather than an individual charging his own battery before going for a ride.

 

[PedalUma]

Perhaps I'm not remembering it correctly but the stories I read seem to be about some enterprise where someone is charging a bunch of batteries at the same time rather than an individual charging his own battery before going for a ride.

That is the thing with the food delivery riders in NYC. Bikes will be charging in an alleyway clubhouse with a bank of chargers running from extension cords. A mix up between what charger goes with each battery is likely. Those guys have a tough life. And the app could send them 40 blocks and across a bridge without a tip. Yet they are essential workers for the city to function. They also get mugged frequently and sometimes have bikes stolen, even at a red light. And they cannot wash their hands or use a restaurants' restroom while they wait for an order.

 

[Asher]

Perhaps I'm not remembering it correctly but the stories I read seem to be about some enterprise where someone is charging a bunch of batteries at the same time rather than an individual charging his own battery before going for a ride.

That, plus repacking batteries under questionable conditions/with questionable sourcing, and using off-brand no-name mystery motorized bicycles. Even the cheap direct sale brands like juiced and rad don't have this issue en masse.

Notice how these fires are extremely concentrated in NYC. Ebike fires happen elsewhere, but the confluence of factors above is limited to NYC.