concerns with ebikes laws and ways to improve them

[Taylor57]

This entire post is a non sequitur whose poopy purpose is to peddle pointless propositions promoting puerile prattling, proselytization, prevarication and pestering of the poor people in this pedaling ... phorum.

You're obliviously a man of great extinction per se as prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance!

 

[m@Robertson]

prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance!

F***K I totally missed that one and it was right in front of me.

Abashed, I retire from the field.

 

[Taylor57]

F***K I totally missed that one and it was right in front of me.

Abashed, I retire from the field.

 

[Ken M]

This is a post on ebike regulations so I have been out of context.

 

[Ken M]

6) Evidence: reports are showing that over the past 4-5 years (2018-2022) ebikes are more dangerous than motorcycles. This is largely due to motorcycle riders generally wearing much better protective gear. This should be a concern to everyone. In europe, ebikes are 250W and no faster than 25kph (15mph) and generally age restricted. Is it not time to consider learning something from countries that know much more about widespread bicycle transportation?

We don't know if ebike safety data indicates that cars are mostly to blame for the accidents. That needs to be assessed as maybe 28mph ebikes are safer in bike lanes that slower ebikes because they are typically going closer to the speed of the autos. Europe was heavily influenced by Bosch and Brose when setting the power and speed limits - keeping the ebikes restricted ensured they would not be as highly effective of getting more people out of cars (both Bosch and Brose make most of their money from car parts so they would prefer bikes remain leisure/recreation focused and not ideal urban mobility solutions.

 

[Ken M]

I like ebikes much more than cars, but I am concerned with the dangers they pose. It is a terrible shame that motor cars were ever allowed in the first place. They have gotten us into a situation where billions of people in the world are beginning to demand reparations for climate justice. This is really an embarrassing age to be an american. The world view of the american lifestyle is plummeting, and I am worried if I visited some places that violence may find me just for being american because people there are literally starving and they blame it on the emissions of the west.

I would like to replace cars with ebikes, but what I witness is that regular bicycles are being replaced instead. This is obvious as they are not re-designating road lanes for ebikes: instead they are taking already limited spaced from bicycles and the proportion of overweight americans continues its upwards trajectory.

I am suggesting that we need separate spaces for pedestrians that ebikes cannot go which is exactly the opposite of what was recently enacted. Now allowing motorized vehicles on sidewalks just because they are electric is absurd. It opens any kind of electric vehicle including one wheel, skateboards and so on. How is a 28mph ebike with obnoxious music blaring from it different from a mountain bike with 50cc gas motor running on pure ethanol (no harmful emissions) on it with the same top speed?

In the netherlands there are separate spaces for different speeds. Separate spaces for <15mph, 15-30mph, and >30mph. Class 1,2,3 ebikes fall into the second category, too fast to be in the space with pedestrians and too slow to share the space with cars. There are designated areas for each speed. It may be possible to pedal bicycles faster than 15mph but its just not at all normal, and when it is, the total kinetic energy is not comparable. Consider a 150lb rider on a 25lb bicycle compared to a 250lb rider on a 75lb ebike. Before the heavier (out of shape) riders were generally more limited in speed balancing this risk, and young children did not achieve those speeds either.

China recently had to update their own laws regarding ebikes (I wonder why):
"Under the new national standards, e-bikes must have pedals, travel at a maximum speed of 25 kph or less and sound alarms when they reach 15 kph. They must weigh no more than 55 kg, including the battery, and the rated output of the motor must be no more than 400 watts"

The primary issue is speed. above 25kph (15mph) and it poses a serious risk to pedestrians. The reason is that the pedestrian does not have time to jump out of the way anymore. I am seriously concerned of being hit by a fat-wheel ebike that weighs 100lbs with a 300lbs rider traveling at an unlocked speed.

Please stop trying to belittle me as biased when most of the world already has laws in place that would prohibit class 1, 2, and 3 from trails and sidewalks. Just because you want to drive a motor vehicle on one of the last nice places left to walk doesn't mean it does not detract from the experience from people who weren't using child-labor produced batteries charged by fracking power. These classes should simply not be considered bicycles for practical purposes, but they are great vehicles compared to cars. Furthermore, most of the ones I see have very fat tires, and are therefore energy-inefficient. There is no punishment for this extra consumption of resources which is a shame. I am not bashing all ebike as you may suggest, I only want to suggest appropriate changes in the United States before more people get seriously injured, and to not infringe on privileges of those who have lower resource use and use solely human power. There needs to be incentives for not using any motors at all. This means keeping sidewalks and greenways free from motorized vehicles. The only exceptions are very low speed motors for people legitimately disabled such as electric wheel chairs and so forth.

When you say who cares what people in denmark think... consider that in the US, there are 10 times more injuries per capita related to transportation compared to northern europe. They use less than half the energy and resources but live longer and are happier. If our transportation network is different, it is time to improve it. I have pedaled across 6 different states, and I don't think the distance is relevant. It is obvious as well that in denmark people travel greater distances by bicycle than they do in the US. This is not about distances or size of a country but about inadequate infrastructure. Imagine giving every other street in cities to ebikes for example. This would really open things up for them more than putting them on the sidewalks.

Someone in good condition can ride at 20mph on a mostly level surface for some time. The world endurance record was over 30mph for over 1hr. The correct way to manage speeds on sidewalks is to have speed limits just like we have for autos on roads.

Power below 20mph should not be a concern because unless it's a cargo bike for heavy loads engineers aren't going to have 5000W drive systems on ebikes intended for true urban mobility. The federal definition for a compliant "low speed electric bicycle" (LSEB) actually does not limit power below 20mph - it specs a motor rating which has nothing to do with drive system peak power but almost everyone interprets it incorrectly because they are not engineers. It does limit assist power above 20mph to what "motor alone" power is needed to sustain 20mph with a 170lb rider on a level surface which is somewhere between 200-300W. This makes great sense at it eliminates the cut-off that no one likes and pretty much ensures that top speeds for most riders will remain less than 30mph (except going downhill which is where all bikes are most dangerous).

My goal it get everyone to read HR727 and understand the LSEB definition and the pre-emptive clause.

 

[Chargeride]

I rode my 1500w fattie in Windsor park London, I was tootling along the wide shared path at about 10mph and was overtaken by a pack of road cyclists who could only be described as olympic track cyclists with legs like body builders.

They went past in close formation at an unbelievable speed, I gave chase, my bikes tops out at 25mph in the cold, they left me for dead, easily touching 35mph.
They were switching the lead constantly and swooping through and around pedestrians.

I quickly backed off to 10mph, the combined weight of around seven large men in close formation would have caused carnage in a crash with walkers.

But Im the one riding illegally.

So what Im saying is pedal cyclists should be restricted to 15mph as well so I cannot be mocked for my slow ebike.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

So what Im saying is pedal cyclists should be restricted to 15mph as well so I cannot be mocked for my slow ebike.

Couldn't agree more. My hometown of Carlsbad, CA passed a raft of new bicycle ordinances in late 2022 after 2 fatal ebike-involved accidents that summer. Neither was the ebiker's fault.

Proud to say that almost all of the new rules applied to all bicycles, including the new speed limits and restrictions on passing pedestrians. The few ebike-specific rules involved things like age and helmet requirements.

As an ebiker, driver, and frequent dog-walker, all of the new laws struck me as reasonable. Many were frankly overdue.

This was a time when untrained school kids were routinely swarming through traffic on ebikes in exponentially increasing numbers — especially after school. A lot of people were upset at this unprecedented and rapidly growing threat to the safety of all road, bikeway, and MUP users, myself included.

So, hats off to the city council for acting without overreacting. I think these new rules and a more recent crackdown on Surrons, Super73s and the like on public infrastructure have had a positive impact.

 

[stompandgo]

I did tons of group rides when I was racing, and after I retired. A lot of them were worlds type rides that were flat out. Always on roads. Never on bike baths or MUPS. It's way too dangerous for everyone, and it's a really bad look for your club that's from the area.

 

[Roamers]

Curious, does anyone in the Heartland have issues with the law/regulation thing? Is this a east/west concern?

Around here, I see nothing in the news or publicized in any way on e-bike issues; we just ride like sane people and don't call attention to ourselves. I don't think I've even seen a youngster on an e-bike; powered skateboards, yes.

 

[Chargeride]

More Surronster ride out carnage in Australia, the culture difference is marked, kid on an emotorbike gets told off by his teacher for not wearing his uniform.
Worth watching as it shows the issue from both sides.
His interview with the press is near the end.

Ride out starts 9.17

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Worth watching as it shows the issue from both sides.

Two sides?? These kids think the world's their playground. Public streets and bikeways and MUPs are NOT playgrounds. The stakes are way too high for that.

 

[Chargeride]

As Ive said, this is nothing new.
Young men have been like this since we were apes in the jungle.
I read that Henry 8th organised them into groups with a salaried leader who took responsibilities for their behaviour.

Banning the bikes will just send them elsewhere lets not forget.

Looks like theres a good chance all non complaint ebikes and emotorcycles will be banned for sale and use in the UK.
This youtuber rides a road legal surron and posts the actual debate footage in parliament