Class I--15 vs. 20 mph

[Steve Porter]

I am sure this has been discussed but I can't find it by searching. I know there is a difference in upper speed for Class I bikes between Europe and the U.S. as described:

"Class 1: Pedal Assist
The electric drive system on the ebike can only be activated through a pedaling action and is limited to relatively low speeds. The sensor usually measures pedal movement, pedal torque or bicycle speed (sometimes all three) and sensors are located in the bottom bracket, rear hub or rear wheel. In parts of Europe this class is limited to 15 mph (25 kph) with motor wattage <= 250 watts. In America, because of our more liberal vehicle definition, this class is limited to a motor powered speed of 20 mph (32 kph) with motor wattage of <= 750 watts. Due to the low speed of operation and required pedaling action this class should benefit from the same rights and access privileges as non-assist bicycles and should be able to be used on streets, bike lanes, multi-use bike paths and off-road trails."

And I know that often the same model marketed in Europe has a top speed of 15 mph and in the U.S. that same model has a top speed of 20 mph. Am I correct in assuming in such instances this is a software rather than hardware difference? And can that be changed by a dealer? My specific question: If I get a bike from Europe that is later marketed in the U.S., could a dealer adjust the upper speed? Or would I literally have to buy a new model if I wanted 20 mph? Thanks!

 

[itsaulgoodman]

I am sure this has been discussed but I can't find it by searching. I know there is a difference in upper speed for Class I bikes between Europe and the U.S. as described:

"Class 1: Pedal Assist
The electric drive system on the ebike can only be activated through a pedaling action and is limited to relatively low speeds. The sensor usually measures pedal movement, pedal torque or bicycle speed (sometimes all three) and sensors are located in the bottom bracket, rear hub or rear wheel. In parts of Europe this class is limited to 15 mph (25 kph) with motor wattage <= 250 watts. In America, because of our more liberal vehicle definition, this class is limited to a motor powered speed of 20 mph (32 kph) with motor wattage of <= 750 watts. Due to the low speed of operation and required pedaling action this class should benefit from the same rights and access privileges as non-assist bicycles and should be able to be used on streets, bike lanes, multi-use bike paths and off-road trails."

And I know that often the same model marketed in Europe has a top speed of 15 mph and in the U.S. that same model has a top speed of 20 mph. Am I correct in assuming in such instances this is a software rather than hardware difference? And can that be changed by a dealer? My specific question: If I get a bike from Europe that is later marketed in the U.S., could a dealer adjust the upper speed? Or would I literally have to buy a new model if I wanted 20 mph? Thanks!

You are correct that it is limited in the software. In Canada, 32km/h bikes are the only ones that are permitted. Those are typically powered by the same motors as the 25km/h ones in Europe (250w nominal). I seriously have my doubts a dealer would be able to update the software for you, and if you didn't buy the bike from them - they likely won't want to help you much at all. Your best be would be to research what delimiter options are available for that specific bike, and completely remove the limitation. However that obviously comes with it's own risks (legality, warranty, etc).

 

[Steve Porter]

Thanks for your reply. I ask not because I want to do any funny business, but because in my experience it might be a couple of years before the model I want is brought to the U.S. Manufacturers will say it is coming but the timeline is often open-ended, and one ends up waiting and waiting. If I knew if was only going to be 6 months fine, but it often doesn't work that way. So I was just wondering if this was possible if I moved ahead from Europe when it did eventually get marketed here.

 

[itsaulgoodman]

Curious, which bike are you looking at?

 

[Steve Porter]

Orbea Gain D10

 

[itsaulgoodman]

Nice looking bike, hub based motor rather than mid drive. The motor is from ebikemotion out of Spain. Looks like a 36v 250w motor with 40nm of torque (a little weak), and the battery is just 250w. That little hub motor might not be able to handle speeds greater than 25km/h, and with that small of a battery - your range wouldn't be great either.

Personally I find ebike road bikes a bit of a conundrum. Small light bikes can go greater than 25km/h easily on leg power, I get passed by road bikers all the time when clipping along at 32km/h on my ebike. So unless you are dealing with a lot of steep hills, the extra weight from a battery and motor are a disadvantage since you'll likely be doing all the work (above 25) anyways.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/electric/product/orbea-gain-d10-review-51522/

https://www.ebikemotion.com/web/

 

[Steve Porter]

Thanks. Yeah I really only want an assist on steeper hills. What attracts me about this bike is that it is significantly lighter than most, so I would be more able to ride it with motor off most of the time (which is what I want to do). I am 61 and my hip will not let me climb some of the steeper hills that I used to and still want to do. So what I want is just enough assist to make a 12% grade, for example, more like an 8% grade as I am climbing it. Obviously I can do that on a myriad of other ebikes out there, but at generally 50 lbs or so, it is not trivial to climb the 5-6% grades unassisted which I want to do. Where I live all my routes have significant hills, and that's what I like to ride. Just can't handle the really steeper ones anymore, but I still want a cardiovascular workout going up those--not looking for an easy ride. I agree I often pass ebikers on flat stretches where I am often going faster than 32 km/h on my carbon road bike--that's not the issue for me. Just the steep hills where I need a little not a lot of assist.

 

[Steve Porter]

BTW I have read all the reviews. I think using it like I want to the battery range would likely be fine for me. I rarely ride more than 100 km and again I don't want to use the motor on downhills, flats, and hills of less than 7-8% gradient. I ride my non-electric mountain bike (which weighs about the same as the Gain D10) up 10% gradients using approximately the same gear ratio as the second gear on the D10.

 

[itsaulgoodman]

If that's your use case scenario, then even the 25km/h limitation should be fine. Do you need to go any faster than 25k going up hill?

That's the great thing about all the new ebikes coming out these days. There really is something for everyone

 

[Solom01]

Steve, I think I see what you're looking for. Just wondering, if you like your current road bike have you ever considered adding a kit to it such as: https://electricbikereview.com/add-e/250w-kit/? It seems like it would give you the little bit of extra power you need at times and is supposedly pretty easy to remove when you don't want it on the bike. The price seems kind of steep, but I believe there is a version of this on one of the funding sites such as Kickstarter that's going for about $160?

 

[Steve Porter]

No I certainly don't need to go faster than 25 km/h uphill but all things equal more flexibility is a good thing--especially if it is just a software issue. For example on my ride today I was on a stretch by the water where there often is, and was today, a brisk headwind. So I was putting out the same amount of effort but instead of going my usual say 35 km/hr I was going more like 25 km/hr. So it might be nice to put out that effort and go my usual speed. Not a deal breaker but again all things being equal the added flexibility would be nice.

I have only cursorily looked at the add-on kits and have not seen this one. For my route I did today there are two short (1 km) 10% climbs and one 5 km or so 8% climb that I ride fine on my barely 7 kg road bike--though in a few years I may well need help on this one as well! I'm hesitant to add anything to it but if it were easy to remove (like this one appears to be) I should consider it. But would really like to have a separate bike solution.

 

[itsaulgoodman]

You might want to consider looking at a different bike then. Like I mentioned, that is a pretty low power hub motor. If you want 32km/h, take a look at something setup for it, there are plenty of options out there.

 

[Steve Porter]

Thanks!

 

[Steve Porter]

So would you guess given the power of this motor that even if marketed in the US the max speed limit will remain 25 km/hr? That's the speed stated in the x35 ebikemotion documentation.

 

[itsaulgoodman]

So would you guess given the power of this motor that even if marketed in the US the max speed limit will remain 25 km/hr? That's the speed stated in the x35 ebikemotion documentation.

That's the line of thought I had when I looked up the specs, yes. When I read your original post, I was thinking along the lines of popular mid drive motors such as Bosch, Yamaha, Brose. You could always reach out to the manufacturer though, and get the word straight from the horses mouth.

 

[Steve Porter]

I already tried that. They haven't given specific timing of release in the U.S., and won't comment on what the specs will be when (vs. if?) that happens.

 

[Ed B]

So would you guess given the power of this motor that even if marketed in the US the max speed limit will remain 25 km/hr? That's the speed stated in the x35 ebikemotion documentation.

Steve - what did you end up deciding? We now know that the Orbea Gain series is rated for 32kph in the US. And I've confirmed with eBikeMotion that the component specs are identical in the EU vs US... the US controller is just programmed differently to allow a 32k top speed... which will lower total range by a small amount (depending on the total output over 25K) . I've also been told by eBikeMotion that the controller is not 'end-user' programmable. But the US price premium over EU bikes equipped with the X35 system is close to $500** for the Orbea line and even greater (in excess of $1,000) if looking at a Ribble etc. (**part of this could now be US tariffs on Chinese exports etc.)

I'd be surprised if there were not a work around for programming the X35 controller... but I haven't found it yet.

The newly announced iGo Carbon Road with the Bafang M800 will certainly do 20mph+ however frame sizes are limited and its closer to a 29lb complete package! Leaving the Orbea Gain M20 as the best weight to power to cost ratio that I've found yet.

 

[Steve Porter]

At the end of the day I have stuck with my Haibike Race S 6.0, which I ride daily to the tune of 20-40 miles and 2000-4000 feet of climbing. I have sort of changed my approach from my original thinking, when I felt like I needed to get something as close to my carbon road bike in weight as possible so I could only use the motor on climbs when I needed to. But with the basically infinitely adjustable assist levels using the Bosch Nyon I now recognize that I can achieve my goals regardless of the bike weight. What I care about are my heart rate and power output targets, not whether I am riding with the motor off. So for some climbs I will use 15% assist, other's 30%, etc. most I ever use is about 90% on steep grades. But even when I use that level of assist I am still putting out my 300 watts, but in a higher gear than normal and at a higher cadence than normal. That last part is probably what I find most useful about my ebike--being able to trade a little torque for a little cadence while still putting out the same amount of power.

BTW I also find after a year of riding that I would not be happy with an assist system that cuts out at 20 mph instead of 28 mph. A lot of time on my way home I have to ride through city traffic moving at 30 mph and I like to move with it. I originally did not think that would matter to me but it does.

 

[Feliz]

i notice quite a few newer bikes are user adjustable for speed. Biktrix and Juiced Bikes are a couple

 

[Steve Porter]

You mean user-adjustable for speed or assist level?