Canyon and Bosch: Just confusing? .... or actually fradulent?

[Wookie]

So today I called Canyon to ask them about the motor on this particularly well-priced, well spec'd and generally really nice ebike, the Canyon Precede:ON 5 (https://www.canyon.com/en-us/electr...e-on-5/3350.html?dwvar_3350_pv_rahmenfarbe=GD). Also considering the carbon frame Canyon Precede:ON CF 8.

On the Precede:ON 5 (kinda goofy name but good looking bike): the specs say that the motor is a Bosch Performance Line Sport motor. The Performance LIne Sport motor was made in two flavors here: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/performance-line-sport. One of those flavors offers 65 newton meters of torque while the other offers 75 newton meters of torque. But on their website, Canyon says their motor has 50 newton meters of torque. But ONE of the photos of the same bike shows an Active Line Motor, while other photos on the same bike on the website show a Performance Line Sport motor.

SO, I called Canyon. The rep at first told me that she thought the 50 newton meters might be a typo and that maybe the Bosch specs were correct i.e. 65 or 75 newton meters of torque. After a minute or so talking about this issue she told me THEY (Canyon) "might have" rebadged the motors which might have been originally Active Line motors. According go her, they "might" have rebadged Active Line motors "because they had Bosch reprogram them." But the Performance Line Sport has higher peak torque than the Active Line motors. Different motor entirely. Has anybody heard of a major manufacturer taking Active Line motors and rebadging them and passing them off as Performance Line motors. Is this a "thing?"

Her comments were somewhat vague and so I asked her to dig deeper and confirm what motor this is EXACTLY. I asked her to please clarify the peak torque the motor offers. She's going to get back to me "next week." The customer service rep had a long list of calls to return today so she didn't really have time to get me an answer today.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So today I called Canyon to ask them about the motor on this particularly well-priced, well spec'd and generally really nice ebike, the Canyon Precede:ON 5 (https://www.canyon.com/en-us/electr...e-on-5/3350.html?dwvar_3350_pv_rahmenfarbe=GD). Also considering the carbon frame Canyon Precede:ON CF 8.

On the Precede:ON 5 (kinda goofy name but good looking bike): the specs say that the motor is a Bosch Performance Line Sport motor. The Performance LIne Sport motor was made in two flavors here: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/performance-line-sport. One of those flavors offers 65 newton meters of torque while the other offers 75 newton meters of torque. But on their website, Canyon says their motor has 50 newton meters of torque. But ONE of the photos of the same bike shows an Active Line Motor, while other photos on the same bike on the website show a Performance Line Sport motor.

SO, I called Canyon. The rep at first told me that she thought the 50 newton meters might be a typo and that maybe the Bosch specs were correct i.e. 65 or 75 newton meters of torque. After a minute or so talking about this issue she told me THEY (Canyon) "might have" rebadged the motors which might have been originally Active Line motors. So they rebadged Active Line motors "because they had Bosch preprogram them." But the Performance Line Sport has higher peak torque than the Active Line motors. Has anybody heard of a major manufacturer taking Active Line motors and rebadging them and passing them off as Performance Line motors. Is this a "thing?"

Her comments were somewhat vague and so I asked her to dig deeper and confirm what motor this is EXACTLY. I asked her to please clarify the peak torque the motor offers. She's going to get back to me "next week." The customer service rep had a long list of calls to return today so she didn't really have time to get me an answer today.

Wookie, go Specialized, Giant, Cannondale or Trek. You do not want an e-bike bought online from a German company that might not be able to provide local service or warranty handling. Germany is the closest neighbour of my country and do you think I would become a Canyon customer without an authorized dealer here? No way!

 

[Wookie]

Stefan there is a reputable local shop that does warranty service on Canyon. I'm just trying to determine what's on the actual f*cking bike because they seem to have misrepresented the motor that's on the bike. That -- to me -- is a very big deal. What else have they misrepresented? I find it amazing that Canyon would do this.

 

[BlackHand]

Almost certainly a copy/paste error but you are right to confirm. Canyon puts different motors on the bikes at different trim levels AND in different countries. The Precede ON 5 does come with the active line in Germany with the higher trim levels coming with Performance Line. Since the PL Sport is only a US/NZ motor doesnt surprise me that Canyon would swap it in for the US, but fail to fully update the marketing blurbs (its literally the same text as the German page but updated to show 28mph).

They did the same with the Grail ON a couple years ago. Listed it as the Performance CX, but they swapped in the Performance Speed for the US market. The US site listed the CX in the components for quite a while but with a 28mph top speed.

That is a good price, particularly if the larger sizes work for you since they come with a 625wh powertube.

 

[rich c]

Why not wait until you have answers before going on a rant? Just a waste of time reading.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

I believe big companies, sometimes, don’t even know what they are selling. Not the reps fault for being vague as your questions are not on their conversational flow chart. I’d be shocked if they followed up with you, but time will tell.

 

[Wookie]

So, follow-up: Received a follow-up email today from the service consultant at Canyon. Very prompt. The motor on the bike has 50 nm of torque. So its not a Bosch Performance Line Sport motor. The email didn't address the fact that they misrepresent the motor as a Performance Line Sport motor. So I can only assume that what the same rep suggested in last week's phone conversation is in fact the case: that is, they rebadged an Active Line motor with a "Performance Line Sport" cover. Either that bothers you or it doesn't I guess. It still seems fraudulent to me.

 

[Asher]

So its not a Bosch Performance Line Sport motor. The email didn't address the fact that they misrepresent the motor as a Performance Line Sport motor. So I can only assume that what the same rep suggested in last week's phone conversation is in fact the case: that is, they rebadged an Active Line motor with a "Performance Line Sport" cover. Either that bothers you or it doesn't I guess. It still seems fraudulent to me.

Wouldn't this violate some agreement with Bosch? IMO I'd ask Bosch to explain what's going on. It is possible Bosch made a special run just for them, just seems implausible, and a brand liability to call a cheaper product the same thing.

As for the photo, I also contacted them about the confusing photo showing a different motor than what's stated. They said it was a European photo but it just seems like they're mailing it in...

That said, even with a 50nm motor, it's a crazy deal compared to anything else on the market for that quality, assuming there's nothing wrong with the bike.

 

[rich c]

Well put your money where your mouth is and retain a lawyer to sue them for this horrible transgression. The lawyer can probably get the job done for $20,000.

 

[PedalUma]

Put an open-source 90nm torque sensing cargo motor on it. Thru-frame. Ditching the proprietary Bosh. For something better! You will like it more. And you will initially save bout $1,000 bucks and have a better bike for many years. It will cost 3x3x3 less to maintain. There is nothing wrong with a Canyon, nice bikes, but improved, more refined, alternatives remain as a viable option.

 

[Wookie]

Yeah I thought there were a few other characteristics that were different between the Performance Line and Active Line motors other than torque. But Canyon did say they "reprogrammed" the motors so that they're 28mph capable whereas before they were not as Active Line motors (just their words, not mine). But maybe as a result of the reprogramming torque is the only thing different about these motors from ACTUAL Performance Line Sport motors. If anymore has any more info I'm all ears. Re the suggestion of a lawsuit, well I worked for litigators in a career that spanned quite a few years so I'm more than a little familiar with that process -- if this were GM and there were 100,000 units sold. Also, states will assert and settle fraud claims and often settle them with consent decrees. If they could clarify that the motors are completely like all other Performance Line Sport motors except for torque maybe that would make it a more acceptable practice? I dunno. Usually when you buy mayo, you expect mayo. Not mustard. I think what they did was unethical. As has been mentioned, apart from this issue, it looks like a great bike with really decent components at a super price (on sale).

 

[Vim Fuego]

Website says 50nm. 28mph which is correct.

 

[Asher]

Bosch states that this motor gets "up to" 75 nm. So any value between 0 and 75 nm inclusive is potentially accurate. So the Canyon spec is not fraudulent.

Honestly I don't understand why the nm would vary, or why manufacturers would limit it - maybe Bosch charges more for a higher nm spec? Do motors of the same model with different nm spec have different hardware, or just different firmware?

Given that motor failures of Bosch models are pretty low generally, I can't imagine the warranty coverage risk differs much by nm spec. A little like carmakers charging you more to activate your seat heater when every car already has the capability built in...

Performance Line Sport (US/NZ)

Read News about Performance Line Sport (US/NZ) for Bosch eBike Systems.

www.bosch-ebike.com

 

[PedalUma]

That is very funny. I had a car with a dummy plate on the instrument panel. Behind it was the connector for a fog
lights switch. At the front of the car were dummy plates for fog lamps. I installed the whole thing and nothing. It required the dealer's fog light firmware.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

It required the dealer's fog light firmware.

Sounds like a $300 upgrade. Lol.

Recently, I got a 2018 Mazda 3. The previous owner paid, The Dealer, $500 for Apple CarPlay upgrade and installation. I’ve found out that I could’ve done that for under $100.

 

[Wookie]

Bosch states that this motor gets "up to" 75 nm. So any value between 0 and 75 nm inclusive is potentially accurate. So the Canyon spec is not fraudulent.

Honestly I don't understand why the nm would vary, or why manufacturers would limit it - maybe Bosch charges more for a higher nm spec? Do motors of the same model with different nm spec have different hardware, or just different firmware?

Given that motor failures of Bosch models are pretty low generally, I can't imagine the warranty coverage risk differs much by nm spec. A little like carmakers charging you more to activate your seat heater when every car already has the capability built in...

Performance Line Sport (US/NZ)

Read News about Performance Line Sport (US/NZ) for Bosch eBike Systems.

www.bosch-ebike.com

So if a motor is said to provide up to 75 nm of torque, if it can provide only 50 nm of torque and no more, is does not "provide up to 75 nm of torque," rather it provides up to 50 nm of torque. See how that works?

 

[Asher]

So if a motor is said to provide up to 75 nm of torque, if it can provide only 50 nm of torque and no more, is does not "provide up to 75 nm of torque," rather it provides up to 50 nm of torque. See how that works?

Have you asked Bosch yet for clarification?

 

[Wookie]

I have not asked Bosch for clarification.

 

[peterh_nz]

Unless I've missed it in the above comments, have the LBS connect the bike to Bosch diagnostics. Surely that would give you the required information.

I does on mine, that is: motor type, max assist speed, and max torque, etc

 

[Asher]

I have not asked Bosch for clarification.

Why not? They would have more info than a forum of nobodies.