Canbus---- motor/parts replacement?

[AHicks]

As far as a bike stand, if it's on the ground with the kickstand down, you just need to push it over far enough to lift the rear tire off the ground. Would be pretty safe operation if you could borrow a second body to give you a hand for a minute.

 

[Gionnirocket]

As far as a bike stand, if it's on the ground with the kickstand down, you just need to push it over far enough to lift the rear tire off the ground. Would be pretty safe operation if you could borrow a second body to give you a hand for a minute.

I do that all the time, but I was hesitant to recommend it given Don's level of experience and age. Perhaps a bit overly cautious on my part. Two people definitely a good idea.

 

[Nvreloader]

Well Guys
I am not that talented to balance on the kick stand,lean over and peddle,
then film what's going on, as there would be ONLY a crash and burn filmed etc....LOL

But, in the last several days, I have been prowling around and found,
a new UART protocol Ultra 620/510 controller, and Uart Display,
this controller is the complete alum section with the boards/chips etc, etc.

Per the instructions, just unbolt the motor and take off the right side of the motor case and replace with this controller after plugging in all the plugs etc.
Then replace the display with the Uart display, and replace the wiring harness
so everything connects together etc.

Which I haven't found yet...... still looking.

Also found a Bafang Besst programmer box and connection cables
that has both the Uart and Canbus connections etc.
They don't give it away either.

The total tab for the Uart controller/display/programming box is right around
$300 with includes shipping here.

Am I stepping off the deep end??
Your thought and suggestions are appreciated,
Don

 

[AHicks]

Well Guys
I am not that talented to balance on the kick stand,lean over and peddle,
then film what's going on, as there would be ONLY a crash and burn filmed etc....LOL

But, in the last several days, I have been prowling around and found,
a new UART protocol Ultra 620/510 controller, and Uart Display,
this controller is the complete alum section with the boards/chips etc, etc.

Per the instructions, just unbolt the motor and take off the right side of the motor case and replace with this controller after plugging in all the plugs etc.
Then replace the display with the Uart display, and replace the wiring harness
so everything connects together etc.

Which I haven't found yet...... still looking.

Also found a Bafang Besst programmer box and connection cables
that has both the Uart and Canbus connections etc.
They don't give it away either.

The total tab for the Uart controller/display/programming box is right around
$300 with includes shipping here.

Am I stepping off the deep end??
Your thought and suggestions are appreciated,
Don

This is moving WAY beyond my experience level, but I would wonder why you might need the Besst box if going UART? The simple cable you already have should suffice.

 

[TomD]

No stand? Turn the bike upside down if you have to. This is not that hard. As far as controller, it's been explained more than once you cannot put a UART controller on a CANBUS motor without a translation chip. Do you even read any of the posts above? Happy to provide suggestions but you don't seem to be trying very hard with the ones provided.

 

[Nvreloader]

This is moving WAY beyond my experience level, but I would wonder why you might need the Besst box if going UART? The simple cable you already have should suffice.

Thanks Al
I posted this information, about the Bafang Besst tool, as I thought it,
MIGHT be a better option than the single cable option etc.
see photo here: https://s.alicdn.com/@sc01/kf/H3f2f1790d7564bf6bd38bb6d367271647.jpg?quality=close
I was hoping that I could exactly see, just what are the settings from this OEM bike,
as it has the Canbus connection cables, (which I have not seen/found yet),
so I might provide more information to these posts, and learn more, about this bike,
and the horrible programming it was supplied with .
Have you seen any info on the Canbus settings, (Layed out like the Smooth settings) so the actual number/info can be seen etc?
Tia,
Don

 

[Nvreloader]

No stand? Turn the bike upside down if you have to. This is not that hard. As far as controller, it's been explained more than once you cannot put a UART controller on a CANBUS motor without a translation chip. Do you even read any of the posts above? Happy to provide suggestions but you don't seem to be trying very hard with the ones provided.

Tom
What good is turning the bike upside down going to do?
What am I supposed to photograph/video?
A SPINNING WHEEL?
Bolton wanted a video of the speedometer, I guess, to show what's going on.

Having the bike upside down is NOT going to show anything, is it?
as there is no resistance while peddling etc??. It is free wheeling, is it not?

What is a translation chip?
Where is it found?
In what part of the motor or controller?

Yes, I do do read all posts, it just may be my lack of experience/training etc etc,
as I have only had this eBike just over 60 days and have less than a 100 miles on it,
I have never seen or had ANY HANDS ON with a EBike, until I bought this one.
I am attempting to learn in this new area of NO experience etc.

It appears that you don't read any of these posts, also,
see the line just above my name =
"Your thought and suggestions are appreciated",

I have not read ANY SUGGESTIONS of yours, that you have posted reference above,
except to imply I can't/don't Read........... and post with a hostile attitude, towards me.
Tia,
Don

 

[TomD]

I do read. Note I was the first to point out the pink elephant in the room, that your 5 second overrun wasn't normal, and suggested it may just be a faulty controller as opposed to the canbus programming.

The reason you want to put the bike upside down is so you can do what Gionnirocket had suggested:

demonstrate the pedals stopping and the chain ring continuing on.

That's all you really need to do to demonstrate there is in an overrun. Who knows, maybe you'll find out there isn't actually an overrun and that it was just your imagination. Or maybe there actually is a 5 second overrun. I'm not trying to be confrontational but you seem to be all over the place, so stay focused, do some simple tests and report back. If it is a faulty controller or something else causing a 5 second overrun then the video should be enough to get warranty service. If there is only a 1 second overrun, and it's just unrefined stock programming, OK, fine, start looking at other options. In that regard your best bet would be to talk to Bolton about upgrading to the Watt Wagons controller since Bolton is one of their partners, or just contact Watt Wagons and ask how soon it will be until they have a canbus solution. You'll have to pull out your motor and send it to them (because the motor needs to be calibrated to the controller) but you'll have world class refinement. You'll have to do the same thing if you send your motor in for Bafang warranty service. Anything else like replacing controller yourself or buying the BESST tool or a UART motor is just going to be a waste of your time, money and sanity. I upgraded my UART Ultra to the Watt Wagons controller and never looked back, best money I spent, no regrets.

Also, it's not as if you were all that clear about what Bolton asked you to do. Sounded more to me like they just wanted a video demonstrating the problem, and you were just rattling ideas off the top of your head, so don't fault my reading comprehension. :p

I contacted Bolton and they want me to take a video showing the problem,
I am not sure what I am supposed to be showing,
the only thing is the speedometer and maybe I can get my legs to show I am not peddling and maintaining the speed, for that short time.
I know the Garmin GPS will show the speed etc.

 

[AHicks]

Thanks Al
I posted this information, about the Bafang Besst tool, as I thought it,
MIGHT be a better option than the single cable option etc.
see photo here: https://s.alicdn.com/@sc01/kf/H3f2f1790d7564bf6bd38bb6d367271647.jpg?quality=close
I was hoping that I could exactly see, just what are the settings from this OEM bike,
as it has the Canbus connection cables, (which I have not seen/found yet),
so I might provide more information to these posts, and learn more, about this bike,
and the horrible programming it was supplied with .
Have you seen any info on the Canbus settings, (Layed out like the Smooth settings) so the actual number/info can be seen etc?
Tia,
Don

Don, I try to stay up on all this CANbuss stuff, and I've never seen anyone post a word about their reading existing CANbuss settings. I can see the logic behind what you are trying to say/do, but at this point anyway, I don't believe it's possible - no matter what method or equipment is used. There are a lot of really intelligent young men, with a lot of expensive education/training/experience in this field playing with this, and they haven't been able to do what you are suggesting. I think maybe it's time to accept the fact that this Canbuss crap is totally locked down and move on.

Your "run on" issue is another ball game. Proving it's doing what you claim is going to take some thought. I don't know how recording your speedometer readings are going to get the job done here. Maybe ask Bolton to be more specific regarding exactly what he's wanting?

As far as tipping the bike to allow the rear wheel to spin with the bike in place, both myself and another both suggested this was not safe without a second person giving you a hand. We both realize that's not going to work well when attempted alone. That's why we suggested you get a hand!

As far as converting your bike to UART, let's make that another topic. Don't try to pack this all into one issue. It's confusing for us, and clearly you aren't following our replies real well either. Let's separate these issues.....

 

[Gionnirocket]

Don

I have to agree with Tom and that you may need to take a step back and reset as you seem a bit overwhelmed.
Not trying to pick on you, but judging by this thread and others you have posted to that you may have bitten a bit too much at once and smaller steps would serve you better.
I didn't suggest turning the bike over to test as you need to be careful about possibly damaging the display and anything else mounted on the handlebars if not set up properly. That said... With a little thought it to can be done safely and easily.
Another way of testing the presumed 5 second over_run is to remove the chain from the front chain ring and then demonstrate the pedals turning, then stopping and see how long the front chain ring continues to turn under power. With the chain removed from the front sprocket you don't have to worry about the rear wheel turning.
That that said... 5 seconds is an extremely long time for over_run and I've felt all along that you are most likely mistaken. When riding your perception, especially with new tech and not haven riden in a long time might be bit screwed.
It is possible that I am wrong and the controller is defective. Couple that with everything else you've questioned and it's easy to see why you're a bit flustered.

 

[Nvreloader]

OK guys
I tipped the bike over on the kick stand, since I couldn't peddle,
I use the thumb throttle and ran the speed up to between 10 and 15 mph,
my usual peddling speed, in the 3rd 17T gear @ Eco 1 setting.
The peddles did not stop spinning around, until the speed was around 2 - 4 mph.

My gear ratio/tooth count on rear wheel,
Big main peddle gear = 44T
Big gear on back sprocket =34
next smaller = 30
next smaller =26
next smaller =23
next smaller =20
next smaller =17
next smaller = 15
next smaller = 13
last smaller =11

Questions,
1. Can I ratchet strap the rear of the bike up off the ground,
hanging from the big Apple tree limb,
then I can hand peddle to the approximate speed that I normally peddle at.
I can video everything, I think.
I tried this inside the shop, but did not have enough light to film by,
so I'll have to do this outside etc.

2. Does it make a difference which gear I use?
I was thinking the 1st selection = 11T, 2nd choice = 20T, and last choice = 30T,
and check all 5 Eco settings,
then change to the Sport setting, and repeat the 3 choices, checking all 5 Sport settings.

Will it hurt to also check, the thumb throttle setting, using the above info?
I'll make notes of what I find in all settings etc.

Yes, I am frustrated/flustered/over whelmed and very disappointed so far.
I just want a decent reliable ride............

THANK YOU all,
Your thoughts and suggestions..............
Tia,
Don

 

[TomD]

You want to demonstrate that when you stop pedaling (or stop applying throttle) the chainring keeps moving, so hold the pedals fixed rather than let them spin which could simply be due to inertia and not the motor continuing to apply power. The chainring will move if the motor is applying power, so that's all you should need to observe. I don't think gear should matter unless the overrun issue manifests at higher or lower speed. You could slip the chain off from the chainring f you wanted to see if speed makes a difference. With the chain off the chainring, your rear wheel won't move and speed should register as zero (I think).

 

[AHicks]

Don, tests made using the throttle are not going to be valid. You need to start the test by pedaling (I don't think it makes any difference what gear you are in), then stop pedaling. If you are actually experiencing this "run on", the chain will continue to move AFTER you stop pedaling. If it does not, if the chain stops moving when you stop pedaling, there is no issue.

If you have the rear tire off the ground, there is no law that says your feet have to do the pedaling. It could just as easily be your hand turning the crank, which I think might simlify things for you? Just hang on to the pedal when you are simulating coasting.

 

[Nvreloader]

Well Guys
Here is what I found,
I hung the bikes rear wheel from the big apple tree limb.
I hand peddled up to speeds of between 10 - 15mph,
(my usual peddling speeds) in Eco 1 thru 5, using the 11T-13- 15t gears.

I could get the chain ring to spin for a very short time
1-2 seconds approximately, in the above gears.

Did the same tests for the Sport 1 thru 5 , using the same gearing,
I could get the chain ring ring to spin for about the same time period approximately.

I then test drove and used both power modes
using 11t - 15T - 20T gears, in both settings,
I could hear the motor and strongly FEEL the power surge,
in both power modes and was MOST noticeable in the 11T thru 13T gears,
for approximately 2-4 seconds.

After the above tests, (and hanging from limb)
I used the thumb throttle only,
and used Eco 1 thru 5 and Sport 1 thru 5 settings,
and ran up the speeds to the maximum speeds possible,
using 11t - 15T - 20T- 26T - 34T gears, for both settings,
and noted the maximum speeds indicated by the speedometer.

The thumb throttle was used in a gradual increase for power, to max speed,
then the Thumb throttle was mashed for max power to the max speed possible,
the same settings/gears were used in both tests.

I was shocked to see some of these readings, which are posted below,
Throttle as used = G= Gradual > M = Mashed
Power settings = Eco 1 thru 5 > Sport 1 thru 5 for maximum speed noted
Battery voltage = 50.6v start = 48.7 finished

Gear = 11T = 11T = 15T = 15T = 20T = 20T =26T =26T= 34T = 34T
---------G-----M-----G------M-----G-----M-----G-----M-----G-----M
Eco 1= 44.7= 44.7 = 40.6 =33.0= 29.6 =29.3 =33.3=23.4=17.9= 17.9
Eco 2= 44.7= 44.7= 29.8 = 33.3= 29.2 =35.8 =23.4=23.4=17.9= 17.9
Eco 3= 31.1= 52.0= 35.9 = 29.0= 26.4 =26.3 =23.2 =23.4=17.8=17.8
Eco 4= 30.1= 53.3= 33.0 = 40.6 =29.0 =35.7 =26.5 =26.4=17.9=18.1
Eco 5= 31.2= 53.4= 31.7= 35.8 = 26.4 =26.4 =20.3 =20.3=17.8=17.9

Spt 1= 29.3= 54.7= 32.9 = 40.1 = 29.1 =30.1= 23.4= 23.3=17.8=17.9
Spt 2= 30.0= 53.1= 28.7 = 40.0 = 30.3 =30.3= 23.4= 23.3=17.9=17.9
Spt 3= 29.4= 54.7= 38.0 = 45.1 = 35.5 =35.9 =23.3 =23.4=17.8=17.9
Spt 4= 44.5= 44.9= 31.9 = 29.0 = 26.4 = 26.4 =20.1=20.3=17.8=17.9
Spt 5= 44.5= 44.7= 32.2 = 40.0 = 35.5 = 29.3 =26.4=26.5=17.8=18.0
There are no errors noted above, checked several times.

Do you see any areas of concern?
Your thoughts and suggestions....
Tia,
Don

 

[AHicks]

Don, do you feel you can get that continued chain ring spinning for 1-2 seconds on your phone/camera? That's the only relevant test/area of concern I see in all that data. -Al

 

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Al
I'll attempt to get some video, I got to find a back road that is quite with no traffic came real close to having a crash/burn yesterday.......LoL

Question for you,
Did you notice the uniformity of the speeds of 20T thru the 34T,
in both the Eco and Sport settings? Fairly uniform thru all gears/speeds.

Then check the speeds of the11T thru 15T of the Eco/Sport settings?
(This is where I spend most of my riding time at/in Eco setting)
There is a hell of differences in surges of power and a lack of consistency
of the speeds, road tested and could feel these surges, when riding etc.

IMHO, I think there is an awful settings/tuning thru this area.
I'll finish out this batteries power that is left and recharge it back to full power
and retest again using all the gears from 11T thru 17T, as I did above.
Then I'll have some complete test Data.

Thanks,
Your thoughts and suggestions
Don

 

[AHicks]

Don, internally there are a total of 9 power settings. That's it. ECO starts at 1 and uses every other to 9. "Sport" starts at 2, and does the same thing. There no magic/smoke/mirrors/programming in play there. Each step up in those 9 power levels supply a slightly elevated amount of power over the previous level. Other than the slight difference in the 2 PAS 1 power levels (which is actually 1 and 2 when using 9 levels) the ECO and Sport modes are more advertising hype than anything else.

There is no question Bafang has left a TON of performance and potential on the table the way they are supplying the motors. Unfortunately, there is very little anyone owning the CANbus versions can do about it. As there is currently NOTHING that can be done about that, hopefully something happens on that front soon.

 

[TomD]

What happened to putting the bike upside down? It's by far the easiest way to take a video of the overrrun in the comfort of your home, garage, or back yard. No need to hang your rear wheel from a tree or find a road without traffic. Not that sound matters here, just rotate the pedal by your hand, then stop, hold, and demonstrate the motor continuing to run (chainring moves). No need to time it either, the video clips will self document that.

As far as eco vs. sport, they are different torque sensing recipes. If there is some fault in the controller, programming, or torque sensor causing the overrun it very well could manifest differently between eco and sport.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I say hang it upside down from a tree on a deserted road... then do a high frame rate slow motion video while documenting the time, decibel level, temperature, chain ring rotation and tooth count past center for each PAS.. and then again for each gear.
Doing the same with the throttle is probably overkill.

 

[Nvreloader]

Hi Guys
Al
Thank you for explaining the operations of the Eco/Sport power settings.
I find the difference of power settings quite interesting on how much power is provided etc, only in that middle settings, 11T area, (see the chart at the end of this post).

Tom
I just got my handle bars set up with a double tier to provide enough space
for all the extra equipment I wanted on the handle bars,
I am not going to disturb this arraignment, unless absolutely needed etc.
I found out when I did the first test (hanging) I couldn't get the peddle overrun
for more than 1-2 sec.
Yet when I ride the bike the overrun is greater and can be felt/heard (engine noise) very easily, so my thoughts are to film the over run when under (peddle power) riding the bike. I am attempting to find/make a good camera holder showing the chain drive etc.
"If there is some fault in the controller, programming, or torque sensor causing the overrun it very well could manifest differently between eco and sport."

See the chart at the end of this post, you can see a very different settings of something?

GR
You are asking for the almost impossible feat,
"I say hang it upside down from a tree on a deserted road."
Finding that combinations is impossible in NV,
as around here there is very few trees around, except on private property,
but we have lots of deserted roads.......LOL

Here is the chart I was talking about,
I colored coded what I thought was very interesting to me,
look at the differences in the speeds noted and the overall pattern laid out.

Eco setting 3 thru Sport 3 settings all have roughly the same speeds,
while using the gradual thumb operation.

Yet the the speeds of the mashed throttle settings jump over 20+ mph between the above setting of E3 and S3. WHY? Anyone have a possible answer?

I wished I had charted the 13T results, to see the difference.
I may go back and do that 13T gear just to see the results.

Gear = 11T = 11T =
---------G-----M-----
Eco 1= 44.7= 44.7= 00.0 mph Dif
Eco 2= 44.7= 44.7= 00.0 mph Dif
Eco 3= 31.1= 52.0= 20.9 mph Dif
Eco 4= 30.1= 53.3= 23.2 mph Dif
Eco 5= 31.2= 53.4= 22.2 mph Dif
Spt 1= 29.3= 54.7= 25.4 mph Dif
Spt 2= 30.0= 53.1= 23.1 mph Dif
Spt 3= 29.4= 54.7= 25.3 mph Dif
Spt 4= 44.5= 44.9= 00.5 mph Dif
Spt 5= 44.5= 44.7= 00.2 mph Dif

Thank you guys,
Thoughts and suggestions
Don