Camping a felony? Tennessee Law

People don't seem to be willing to move to more affordable places. Yeah, I know that we get attached, family, work, scenery, etc. to places but if you can't afford to live somewhere, move elsewhere. That's the way capitalism is designed. If people move on, eventually there will be a shortage of workers for the low paid jobs, wages will rise, and towns should become affordable for those folks.

Reality needs to kick in. Yeah, I'd like to live in some mountain resort town, but I cannot afford so it I don't. We can't all live where we want to.

That's my rant.
 
People don't seem to be willing to move to more affordable places. Yeah, I know that we get attached, family, work, scenery, etc. to places but if you can't afford to live somewhere, move elsewhere. That's the way capitalism is designed. If people move on, eventually there will be a shortage of workers for the low paid jobs, wages will rise, and towns should become affordable for those folks.

Reality needs to kick in. Yeah, I'd like to live in some mountain resort town, but I cannot afford so it I don't. We can't all live where we want to.

That's my rant.
Unfortunately, mountain/resort towns need low-paid workers to affordably cater to the whims of their clientele... Would be nice if those places provided affordable housing to their serfs, even if just dormitory-style, during the season 😉.

Also, it takes resources (money) to move, and most homeless just can't afford to do so.
 
Unfortunately, mountain/resort towns need low-paid workers to affordably cater to the whims of their clientele... Would be nice if those places provided affordable housing to their serfs, even if just dormitory-style, during the season 😉.

Also, it takes resources (money) to move, and most homeless just can't afford to do so.
That first part is my point. If all the "serfs" moved away, that would create a demand for their work, which should increase wages and decrease housing values. Who would clean the McMansions? However, in reality, workers from other countries would be imported.

I actually worked at ski areas. I never ever even thought about it being a career. The pay was bad and I worked because I got to ski free on my days off. I shared a house with 2 other people about 30 miles down the pass from the ski area. We were all young 'uns. None of us planned to make it a career.

But if you can't afford to live there, then don't. Simple.

Also, so many homeless work so hard to be homeless, that they might as well get a job. There's a guy working hard panhandling over by the Walmart here. Meanwhile businesses and agriculture are hiring.
 
Also, so many homeless work so hard to be homeless, that they might as well get a job. There's a guy working hard panhandling over by the Walmart here. Meanwhile businesses and agriculture are hiring.
Agriculture? less than minimum wage for many and no overtime pay with mandatory overtime hours. I'm sorry but i think it's a callous attitude to make the false claim, that many work hard to be homeless.
I'll agree that any motivated white guy can make good, but to deny the realities of the mentally ill, addicted, and PTSD survivors are really missing the reality.
 

I'll agree that any motivated white guy can make good, but to deny the realities of the mentally ill, addicted, and PTSD survivors are really missing the reality.
yes. for some reason many people like to believe (maybe it makes them feel better?) that most homeless people are homeless because they’re lazy or something. most have major health or mental health issues. many are veterans. many have been institutionalized or are/were addicted, particularly to opiates. most are also harmless to everyone except themselves. it’s a tragic state of affairs for such a rich country, and the “just get a mcJob” argument is self-serving and offensive. nobody in this world is self-made. we all benefit and benefitted from the basic framework and infrastructure of society. especially white men.
 
I hear the argument around here at planting time that they just don’t want to work which really means the Mexican help has moved away. I’m a Vet with PTSD who neverthe less lives in a healthy surrounding and has financial security…yet have my own problems that keep me isolated. I was in a recent PTSD workshop and was startled by the extent of the afflictions. It’s no wonder some won’t come off the streets even in the cold…
There are avenues to address this social ill…In the New Yorker recently there was an article by Atul Gwande (sp) about the Costa Rican health care system. The key was local clinics, bare bones but with personnel they trust. Surely a network like this rural/urban would help people in the streets as well as those who might soon be there.
 
People don't seem to be willing to move to more affordable places. Yeah, I know that we get attached, family, work, scenery, etc. to places but if you can't afford to live somewhere, move elsewhere. That's the way capitalism is designed. If people move on, eventually there will be a shortage of workers for the low paid jobs, wages will rise, and towns should become affordable for those folks.

Reality needs to kick in. Yeah, I'd like to live in some mountain resort town, but I cannot afford so it I don't. We can't all live where we want to.
i'm not smart enough to have any answers to homelessness, but I'm pretty sure it's not, "Let them eat cake." As far as the way capitalism is designed, first, capitalism isn't a finished product. More to the point, It isn't perfect and really misses the target in some areas. Why, for example, would there be any homelessness in the system you describe?

Here's an idea that might work: Just like there are people on the losing end of the capitalism dichotomy, there are people on the other end. Tax them to help fill the gaps capitalism doesn't handle as well as we'd like. Maybe I'm talking about Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk types, but not just them by a long shot. And I'm not saying just give anyone who wants a warm place to sleep and three squares a blank check forever. Although there are certainly some people who need long term help. Anyway, there are a lot of great capitalists whose lifestyles and legacies would never be meaningfully impacted by higher taxes, which could have a huge impact on some of the people capitalism doesn't magically take care of.

TT
 
Agriculture? less than minimum wage for many and no overtime pay with mandatory overtime hours. I'm sorry but i think it's a callous attitude to make the false claim, that many work hard to be homeless.
I'll agree that any motivated white guy can make good, but to deny the realities of the mentally ill, addicted, and PTSD survivors are really missing the reality.
I live near @Cowlitz, and let me tell you if you are paying minimum wage nobody will come and pick your apples.

She is describing trying to beg in a hard-core right wing town of 5000 people where damned near everyone knows everybody else and all their business. So it doesn't seem to me to be a productive place to put up a sign asking for help. On the other hand you can almost always swing a job as a day laborer at the Home Depot next door and get enough for a bus ride out of town.
 
i'm not smart enough to have any answers to homelessness, but I'm pretty sure it's not, "Let them eat cake." As far as the way capitalism is designed, first, capitalism isn't a finished product. More to the point, It isn't perfect and really misses the target in some areas. Why, for example, would there be any homelessness in the system you describe?

Here's an idea that might work: Just like there are people on the losing end of the capitalism dichotomy, there are people on the other end. Tax them to help fill the gaps capitalism doesn't handle as well as we'd like. Maybe I'm talking about Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk types, but not just them by a long shot. And I'm not saying just give anyone who wants a warm place to sleep and three squares a blank check forever. Although there are certainly some people who need long term help. Anyway, there are a lot of great capitalists whose lifestyles and legacies would never be meaningfully impacted by higher taxes, which could have a huge impact on some of the people capitalism doesn't magically take care of.

TT
Two guys that could change the world.
 
I have a hard time with the homeless problem. On one hand, I feel sorry for some of them. I realize it's hard and all. But on the other hand, I despise the mess they make. There was one guy trying to survive in a van here. He started trashing his edge of the road, and then I noticed people were stopping there quite a bit. On a community forum, someone mentioned that the garbage pile would be taken care of soon. Anyway, it got real cold here and he left, but did not leave the usual mess behind. I suspect he got both help and threats.

It's a complex problem.

As far as ag work goes, ( I have done that work also) it is now hard for farmers to keep help on if they don't pay well. The crews keep in touch with cell phones and word gets out quickly about where the pay is better, and they'll pack up and go to the better paying orchards, leaving the cheaper orchardist crewless.

We have one housing project for ag workers. It usually has a no vacancy sign up. It's quite cheap but the renters have to be working in agriculture in order to stay there. I think the buildings are bunkhouse style.
 
There was a story in the news last week about an autistic kid, 16 or so when he disappeared some years ago…his family was ecstatic when the Co. police contacted them with the news of his location. The police cam showed a young man, the very picture of homeless…it wasn’t economics that put him there.
 
Tourism is a big part in Hawaii's economy it is illegal to camp on beaches or parks but a lot do, and they are rounded up by LEOs. and are given option to move on some lucky who qualify are placed in Homeless Camps like this , Away from popular tourist destinations.

Most homeless are from out of State
I guess if you had to pick a spot to be homeless, Hawaii would probably be a pretty good choice...
 
Homeless folks come in basically four categories:
  1. People who are bounced onto the street because of a short-term financial problem, like a medical bill or emergency car repairs.
  2. People with serious mental health issues.
  3. People with serious substance abuse problems.
  4. Criminals who prey on #1-#3 or hide among them.
The first category is the easiest and most cost-efficient to "help". And providing short-term assistance to them keeps them from sliding into one of the other three categories.
 
We have a Union of Homeless around our town.. They work in groups.. Take turns on certain corners where they beg for donations... Its been hard for them lately with Covid (which no restrictions on homeless in our state). The one guy carries a sign that says "Hard Times" ... These guys are the same ones I have seen for many years around the same corners. A group Of about 6 or 8 and another group that handles the corners by my old house.. I watch them while I sit at the lights waiting on traffic.. They get some money from People and I watch as they pull a wad of cash out of there pockets to put the Donations away before anyone sees. After they fulfill the predetermined hours at the corner They go next door to my office and buy Pot.

Others I see with the tracks up and down there arms and the swollen hands from the heroin use.. and so on... These guys will stand on a street corner for 10hr days sometimes I see them on weekends .. Why not just have a job? They dont want to work or pass a drug test..

I have offered a job to many of them.. None have shown up... One guy asked what he would be paid and told me he makes More than that standing on the corner.. TAX free...

There used to be a Indian looking lady at the Corner years ago... Found out she was married to a local Attorney.. She was dropped off in there BMW every morning and picked up by the same car every night...

I had a guy that I knew who was a thief, who would hang around our area of town and he was caught at home depot stealing stuff... Seen his wife on the street corner with her kids doing the Homeless thing.. Heard she had been on drugs a few weeks before as I had tried to help her and her husband..

So it is a Complex problem.. What can be done? I have my thinking but My ideas wouldnt be accepted by most liberals... But one thing I have found that when someone Has No Self Worth... They dont amount to much.

Then I have ran into some that have been on just really tough times... Time will tell at each corner and how long they hang. Helped one lady at Walmart that had the "Need Gas" sign... she was in the same spot for a few months.

I could go on and on.. Ok, one more... My cousin was going through a drive through and a homeless guy was standing at the road entrance to the Restaurant with the will work for food sign...So she bought him a meal as she went through the line.. She handed the meal to him and he asked what this was for? She told him she had read his sign... He turned and through the food under the bushes and told her he needed cash not food... When she looked under where he through the food.. There was boxes and bags of food..

Sad that one has to be a cynic ... but a lot of people have used the "Homeless" banner and abused it..

Just a couple stories..
 
We have a Union of Homeless around our town.. They work in groups.. Take turns on certain corners where they beg for donations... Its been hard for them lately with Covid (which no restrictions on homeless in our state). The one guy carries a sign that says "Hard Times" ... These guys are the same ones I have seen for many years around the same corners. A group Of about 6 or 8 and another group that handles the corners by my old house.. I watch them while I sit at the lights waiting on traffic.. They get some money from People and I watch as they pull a wad of cash out of there pockets to put the Donations away before anyone sees. After they fulfill the predetermined hours at the corner They go next door to my office and buy Pot.

Others I see with the tracks up and down there arms and the swollen hands from the heroin use.. and so on... These guys will stand on a street corner for 10hr days sometimes I see them on weekends .. Why not just have a job? They dont want to work or pass a drug test..

I have offered a job to many of them.. None have shown up... One guy asked what he would be paid and told me he makes More than that standing on the corner.. TAX free...

There used to be a Indian looking lady at the Corner years ago... Found out she was married to a local Attorney.. She was dropped off in there BMW every morning and picked up by the same car every night...

I had a guy that I knew who was a thief, who would hang around our area of town and he was caught at home depot stealing stuff... Seen his wife on the street corner with her kids doing the Homeless thing.. Heard she had been on drugs a few weeks before as I had tried to help her and her husband..

So it is a Complex problem.. What can be done? I have my thinking but My ideas wouldnt be accepted by most liberals... But one thing I have found that when someone Has No Self Worth... They dont amount to much.

Then I have ran into some that have been on just really tough times... Time will tell at each corner and how long they hang. Helped one lady at Walmart that had the "Need Gas" sign... she was in the same spot for a few months.

I could go on and on.. Ok, one more... My cousin was going through a drive through and a homeless guy was standing at the road entrance to the Restaurant with the will work for food sign...So she bought him a meal as she went through the line.. She handed the meal to him and he asked what this was for? She told him she had read his sign... He turned and through the food under the bushes and told her he needed cash not food... When she looked under where he through the food.. There was boxes and bags of food..

Sad that one has to be a cynic ... but a lot of people have used the "Homeless" banner and abused it..

Just a couple stories..
I would say that over 75% or more of the homeless population in general suffer from some form of mental illness. Hell, for that matter, probably 75% of this message board do too:)
 
In 1969 I was discharged from the USN honourably under medical conditions. I was entitled to collect unemployment checks for a number of months. After 30 minutes of bullshit I tore up the paperwork and threw the confettied scraps on the floor and NEVER, and vowed NEVER to lower myself to ever grovel for a free dollar again. In 1978 we moved to Montana to attend UM and had married student housing. I’d always managed to find work and was willing to do ANY work but no one would hire me. We paid forward for our housing and wouldn’t be homeless for 3 months but had nothing to eat or money to buy food. I went to the food stamp office in Missoula and was issued food stamps. The process and the way I was treated in the grocery store convinced me I’d never again ask for a hand up. well we made it through, And never did ask anyone for a hand up. We both created new lives and careers. We discovered that 6 figure incomes were much more comfortable, but never forgot what the poverty felt like.

I have nothing but empathy for those needing a hand up. Those asshat politicians continuously what to divide us and make each of us enemies because the least amoung us are lazy. I’m firmly in the camp that believes most would use a hand up to move forward, but those divisive bastards instead peddle discord and claim the least of us are always on the dole.

A fraction of our military spending could feed every hungry child. But we’d rather twist the intent of every reiligulous text to demean the least among us when those texts clearly teach followers to care for those less fortunate.

in later years we parented group home for chemically dependent teens. We saw first hand the success possible when kids were offered a path forward. We tried and often were successful in imparting the idea that hustling drugs was harder wotk than being successful in school and work habits.

EVERYONE deserves a hand up. Every “holy” book clearly points out this is the most basic of premises in faith. But the covenient interpretations have scuttled our faith in helping those less fortunate.

in the end we were able to retire at 55 and 57. Warm, well fed and comfortable. Due to our own hard work. But I’ll be damned before I ever deny a child or anyone a decent Neal and safe housing, we piss more away on war toys in a day than feeding our future.

i couldnt make it on a 40 hour work week so I took night jobs and part time weekend jobs. I’m white and any healthy whites guy with a modicum of motivation and sense can find a pearl. And with even more focus s diamond or two.

to me there’s nothing more disgusting than an able bodied shiny ass white guy. He oughta be painted up like John Howard Griffith author of Black Like Me and sentenced to a month in Mississippi.

Black Like Me, first published in 1961, is a nonfiction book by journalist John Howard Griffin recounting his journey in the Deep South of the United States, at a time when African-Americans lived under racial segregation. Griffin was a native of Mansfield, Texas, who had his skin temporarily darkened to pass as a black man. He traveled for six weeks throughout the racially segregated states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, and Georgia to explore life from the other side of the color line. Sepia Magazine financed the project in exchange for the right to print the account first as a series of articles.

Griffin kept a journal of his experiences; the 188-page diary was the genesis of the book. When he started his project in 1959, race relations in America were particularly strained. The title of the book is taken from the last line of the Langston Hughes poem "Dream Variations".
'
 
I would say that over 75% or more of the homeless population in general suffer from some form of mental illness. Hell, for that matter, probably 75% of this message board do too:)

Everyone's Crazy Except You and Me...And I'm Not So Sure About You

 
It sure would be easy to fix (well, more precisely easier to fix) with infinite money. I think the kicker is that the dollar cost to fix it is going to be uncomfortably large and a lot of people are going to scream bloody murder about it.

Beyond that, I'd suggest a triage system. Some of the interventions are pretty straightforward, some aren't. Some will require legal changes.

If a homeless person still has a job, and has lost their housing because of some recent drama, intervene early and provide temporary housing to get them on their feet again and keep them working. If a working person loses their housing for some reason, they are at high risk for losing their job. Intervening before more damage is done is money well spent.

In the same vein, identify people who are employable if they were not homeless, and hook them up with services to get a permanent address and a phone number so they can get a job. Again, this is expensive but less expensive than letting that person's situation worsen and require more expensive interventions down the road.

Now it gets more complicated and you'd likely need legal changes far beyond my expertise. It would help if there were laws in place that allowed authorities (not necessarily police) to temporarily detain homeless people for mental health and substance abuse screenings. Ideally during that process they would be relocated as well (more on that below).

Provide camps where we relocate still-homeless people to. Ideally those camps would be far from population centers and indeed any population at all (if you inspect a map you can find quite a few good candidates). Those who need mental health care, substance abuse care, or regular health services would be offered them. Everyone there would be under shelter, adequately fed, and adequate provisions for hygiene and sanitation would be provided. People who wanted to work would be offered jobs. Before I make this sound too much like paradise I'm basically describing a refugee camp. I'd expect spartan conditions. At the same time everyone brought there would be free to leave under their own power after say 48 hours -- long enough to get some square meals, a shower, medical checks, and have their clothes washed.

As a last-ditch measure, we need to update our rules on institutionalizing the mentally ill. A lot of the reason we have this huge, festering homeless problem is that we made it from very difficult to impossible to institutionalize homeless people in the 1970s. We closed our mental hospitals for the most part. But we didn't fund the network of outpatient services we'd need to substitute for those mental hospitals. We need to bring back institutionalization in some form.

So if people don't want to stay in the camps, say after the third time they've been detained they can be involuntarily committed at a mental institution.

Note that this will require a deep pocketbook and some strong stomachs. It is likely that conditions both in the camp and institutions would be appalling by our standards. But we need to be realistic and remember that "living" under a pile of blue tarps in a wal-mart tent and pooping in the bushes in Roanoke Park is pretty appalling too.

Another axis of this problem to consider: we need a PR campaign to discourage people from giving money directly to homeless people on the street and to discourage homeless people from begging. In India begging is basically industrialized, and they will blind or maim children so they are more profitable beggars. So we need to encourage people to help homeless people not by directly giving them money, but rather by donating to well-ran organizations that help them. We might consider a voucher system where you can buy a coupon book and give the coupons to homeless people. That keeps the money from being funneled up the chain to some small-time crime lord or spent on drugs or alcohol.
I have often said if I were given unlimited time and resources, I probably couldn't solve the problem of homelessness. Maybe I could fix certain parts of it, but not all of it. Mr. Coffee's post is one of the more thoughtful pieces on the subject. Well done.
 

Everyone's Crazy Except You and Me...And I'm Not So Sure About You

I have a plaque on my office wall that is very close to that. It reads:

" All fisherman are liars except for you and me and sometimes I'm not so damn sure about you"

Lee Vining, CA
 
I have a plaque on my office wall that is very close to that. It reads:
My office at The Mirage had this one,

FREE LUNCH TOMORROW

But I do believe it’s fixable. All that would be necessary is for those religulous folks to actually follow the precepts they claim to embrace.

1650972657325.jpeg
 
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