Build your own!

[J0nG0m]

Can't be that hard, right? I'm going to start with that question.

So I'm hooked with ebikes, bought myself a RadRhino and just love the bike, it does everything I wanted it to do, which is a winter commuting vehicle, but it has it's limitations. So as I read around it just seems that idea of building your own bike doesn't seem to be that crazy, or is it?

My idea is to build my own full suspension carbon 27.5+ mid drive bike.

My questions:
- Alibaba/AliExpress full suspension carbon frames. Are they any good? Experiences?
- Bafang M620, service? Installation? Things to have in mind/consider?
- General things that could go wrong?

I sure have more questions but are more related to the bike building process more than ebikes related.

Thanks.

 

[linklemming]

It most certainly is possible and if you browse endless-sphere.com you will see alot of people doing their own thing.

I have done it on a bike (old GT zaskar MTB and TSDZ2 kit with opensource software). The ebike parts were $850 including a cheap hailong 48V/10ah pack. The pack latest 10 rides before a cell went bad so its useless to me now so I just bought a higher quality pack from luna cycles (about $500 with upgraded charger). This is a learning/tinker project for me. I wanted a cheap hardtail with no speed limit) and to even customize the software. It runs well although the motor is a little noisy. I use this bike for higher speeds and the noise isnt so bad once up to speed.

The TSDZ2 doesnt work well on all FS bikes, something like a bafang BBS02 might work well for you if you can live with the cadence only sensing (The TSDZ2 uses a torque sensor which is why Im using it).

You could do a rear hub motor but then need to work out some sort of torque arm setup. Im considering doing this to a 15yr old FS bike just for the heck of it.

All that being said, Im not sure if its really worth it unless you just like to tinker and the cable clutter just looks tacky. Something like the juiced bike Crosscurrent S can be had around $1800.

I dont see a reason to go to carbon for an ebike, just not worth the $$ for the 1-2 lbs saved.

Im looking forward to seeing how the bafang mid-drives work out. Would be great to have frames made for this motor and the ability to build your own bike from the frameset. Also would be nice if a end-user could buy parts directly instead of having to go thru a LBS on something like the brose/bosch/yamaha.

FLX bikes is using the bafang mid-drives. The bafang mid-drives appear to be configurable through software which could be a bonus.

There is also threads on endless-sphere on bikes bought with the bafang mid-drive.

 

[J0nG0m]

Hey... Thanks for the suggestion, this endless-sphere seems to be a forum with lots of info related.

 

[indianajo]

I did it to an old steel frame, that I was pretty sure the hub motor wouldn't bend the forks. $830 total for a competent battery and a low feature DD hub motor. (no PAS, no display). Works. 2 batteries costing about $330 didn't work, buy batteries from a big name dealer.
I have my doubts about carbon frame and hub motors. I built torque arms out of random scrap even with a steel frame.
I could give a **** about cable clutter. What I didn't want is to pay $2500 up for a bike I couldn't use. Nearest city with even two dealers is 110 miles away, and searches on here have proved nobody is stocking electric 18" or smaller frames, which I require. As you can see left I have a custom aluminum frame that fits me, will put enough weight on the front tire to not dump me over the handlebars as mountain bikes do, and now I have electric drive too. Weight of battery is on the front too, another plus on a bike that carries 50 lb supplies at times + 160 lb me.

 

[J0nG0m]

Yes, I totally agree with you @linklemming that this might not be cost effective, but DIY never is to be honest. But I might just don't see me buying another budget ebike, for me at least.


When received the RadRhino I was even considering the RadWagon, but now that I own a budget bike I can understand better all these companies (juiced, volt, m2s etc). All of those companies make bikes with a specific market in mind, same as the premium companies (bulls, haibike, R&M, etc) the thing is I'm just about in the middle, which is hard because budget bikes are good and they work fine and all, but their bike components are just cheap and underperforming, on the other hand premium bikes are good and perhaps I'm lucky enough that I might be able to afford one, but always there's also some compromise like: you don't have a seller around, or nice bike but that groupset is just not for me, or it might lack of some feature, buying an expensive bike so that in the end I have to change something like on cheap bikes makes no sense to me.


@indianajo I'm 44 and I've been riding bike for at least 30 years, so I have enough experience to work on my bikes (but I'm not expert mechanic anyway), so the bicycle part is not so daunting, now the ebike side it is a bit. With that said I'm intrigued, interested to say the least.

There are plenty of frames compatible with the mid-drive engine Bafang G510 on Alibaba, unfortunately haven't found reviews (credible reviews) about it.

 

[indianajo]

With all that bike expertise, I have a question. My $180 amazon DD hub came with a *****y ****ese 7 speed freewheel, 14-28. That is with the male threads on the motor housing. My bodaboda left came with and 8 speed freehub & cluster, 11-32 which was a useful speed range. I could get the ****ese freewheel spun off the motor with the park tool, but the three 8 speed "freewheels" I have bought have been 1. 11 speed shimano cluster for freehub, (competitivecyclist.com) 2. sram 8 speed cassette for a freehub, although described as a freewheel on e-bay and 3. an 8 speed freewheel that was 45 mm thick, brand 3diamond. I obviously only have room for a 41 mm freewheel. I won't be spreading a cast aluminum frame. Aluminum with silicon in it fractures when bent (try it on home depot 1/8" strips). That frame was $1800.
As ebay considers freewheels to be exactly equivalent with clusters for freehubs, I've quit buying things. 8 speed devices with part numbers on e-bay are described in spec sheets from suntour, but the spec sheet doesn't specify whether they are freewheels or clusters or even how thick they are.
BTW my chain works fine with the 7 speed, but is really 8 speed chain. I don't even want an 11 speed cluster, all that shifting annoys me. But I need 11 tooth to assist the motor over 13 mph and I need 32 to get up 15% grades unpowered (which is part of my exercise program).

 

[harryS]

Cassettes and Freewheels. Most hub motors are freewheels. Cassettes come apart and can be reassembled with different gear clusters. I believe you can leave a few off, but you still have the height of the spindle. In any case, you have a freewheel.

DNP makes 7 speed and 8 speed freewheels with the small 11T gear. They're not known for durability though.

https://www.amazon.com/DNP-Epoch-Fr...&qid=1545105859&sr=8-5&keywords=DNP+freewheel

https://www.amazon.com/DNP-Epoch-Fr...MN10XQYRARF&psc=1&refRID=Q7W0WNEXYMN10XQYRARF

I use them on our e-folders. Little 20" wheels have you pedaling like a circus clown w/o the 11T gear.

 

[linklemming]

Yes, I totally agree with you @linklemming that this might not be cost effective, but DIY never is to be honest. But I might just don't see me buying another budget ebike, for me at least.


When received the RadRhino I was even considering the RadWagon, but now that I own a budget bike I can understand better all these companies (juiced, volt, m2s etc). All of those companies make bikes with a specific market in mind, same as the premium companies (bulls, haibike, R&M, etc) the thing is I'm just about in the middle, which is hard because budget bikes are good and they work fine and all, but their bike components are just cheap and underperforming, on the other hand premium bikes are good and perhaps I'm lucky enough that I might be able to afford one, but always there's also some compromise like: you don't have a seller around, or nice bike but that groupset is just not for me, or it might lack of some feature, buying an expensive bike so that in the end I have to change something like on cheap bikes makes no sense to me.


@indianajo I'm 44 and I've been riding bike for at least 30 years, so I have enough experience to work on my bikes (but I'm not expert mechanic anyway), so the bicycle part is not so daunting, now the ebike side it is a bit. With that said I'm intrigued, interested to say the least.

There are plenty of frames compatible with the mid-drive engine Bafang G510 on Alibaba, unfortunately haven't found reviews (credible reviews) about it.

Wasnt sure if you wanted to DIY just for the experience or to save money. If you really wanted to save money try to find ebikes on sale.

I DIY myself having built my own MTBs from the frameset since the early 90s (except for a specialized FSR FS bike I bought in 2000 and my new Bulls eMTB). Cost more but I get exactly what I want and have the tools to fix 99% of the problems I have.

The Bulls had an issue with the Suntour Fork (seals leaked due to bad assembly) and it was such a hassle to get fixed/replaced. The shop I go to is about 40 minutes away and when you figure in time at the shop its 2 hours round trip. Then there is the issue of trying to get the shop to correctly diagnose the problem which didnt happen the first time so it will require 3 round trips to get completely fixed. Its all being done under warranty except for shop time and the shop seems really helpful but I could have solved this quite awhile ago if I could buy the Suntour shock parts. Im waiting to find a takeoff RockShox for on ebay to replace it so I will have a shock I can work on and get parts for. I love every part on the bike except for the fork which I didnt like from the getgo. Time will tell how well the proprietary brose motor holds up.

The 2000 Specialized FSR had an issue with the bottom bracket backing out during a ride about 3 months into ownership. Specialized replaced the frame with a higher grade s works frame (frame cost about the same as the original whole bike) at no cost to me at all. That being said, Im a huge specialized fan and the LBS that sells them. IF they open more MTB trails around me I will be getting a 2019 base model turbo levo.

My TSDZ2 zaskar I built as a speed pedelec project just because. I wanted to try the opensource software and just fiddle with it. It has worked out well although not as cost effective as I would have liked. As an example, I can get a new 2017 Raleigh Redux IE brose equipped speed pedelec for $2200 locally. Although not as well equipped component wise a Juiced CCX is still a bargain and I love the potential range of that battery but whats up with a 9mm quickrelease on the front, seems sketchy to me for a speed pedelec. I would probably replace the fork with a rigid thru axle front fork but would then need to replace the front wheel with a new hub or just buy a new front wheel.

I went to the local ebike shop (not the same as I bought my bulls from) and talked with the owner for several hours about ebike stuff while he helped customers. He sells stromers, bintelli, haibike, yamaha, easymotion and magnum bikes. The amount of budget ebikes he sells is remarkable (over 350 magnum bikes this year).

 

[indianajo]

Can't be that hard, right? I'm going to start with that question.


My idea is to build my own full suspension carbon 27.5+ mid drive bike.

My questions:

- General things that could go wrong?

Okay I've converted two bikes. Things that can go wrong, both e-bay and amazon batteries have been garbage. You have 31 days to figure it out and get your money back. You are not an authorized hazardous material shipper so you can't send the battery back. I finally bought a good battery from Luna-cycle, twice the price of the garbage.
Amazon & e-bay power wheels seem to be okay. I got a geared motor from ebikeling.com that stranded me twice but see batteries above, that was the problem. It had a nice display with settable parameters. $320. It is 24 miles away so I can't prove it good until May. The PAS magnet wheel didn't fit my 1970 crank so I had to bore out the middle, then mount it to the crank with glued wood strips. I had to mount the PAS pickup to the frame with a bracket I made from an old lawnmower, that screwed to the kick stand boss. The first time I mounted the PAS sensor I put it on backwards since there were no instructions. The hub motor did not fit in the front fork, I had to grind the slot out 2 mm with a 4 1/2" grinder. Use safety glasses. The nuts tended to loosen on the motor, I put on second ones from the motorcycle shop, 14mm x 1.75. Had to take the hall effect sensor connector off to do that, use a pick and make a drawing of the colors on the back before disassembly. Note some power wheels have double thick plastic wheels, requires a long stem tube only available on e-bay or amazon. I made a bracket to hold the LCD display up over the stem since it wouldn't fit on my handlebar anywhere I could see it.
I bought a second DD wheel from e-bay, no display, no PAS, works fine, $180. Nuts slip in the frame making tire rub, so I put on second ones I had to make since the motorcycle shop changed owners. I used a tap from victornet.com on 12 mm nuts. Takes a 1/2" drill.
The DD motor drags quite a bit but at least it works reliably. Pushing throttle all the time hurt my thumb on a 22 mile all power trip, building a twist throttle out of garolite tubing and steel wire.
The DD motor bound up on me requiring a friend to pick me up. Covers may be collapsing on the armature, no thrust bearing inside. I ground back the fat flange on the axle 1 mm on each side to fit through my $1800 frame then cut oblong holes in washers and thinned them out to fit inside the frame. So the pinching of the frame is now resisted by the washers inside the frame supported by the fat part of the axle. I used a 3"x1/16" wheel on a mandrel in a drill motor to grind back the axle flange. Use a vise-grip pliers on the back to keep the axle from rotating while grinding down. I make axle shaped holes in the washers and also metal strips for torque arms with nicholson triangle and round files. ****ese **** files from harbor freight will cost you 3 hours.
Wiring of the motor was obvious. To extend the power cables from battery to the controller mounted under my seat out of the rain on the geared hub drive I used dorman bullet connectors from oreilleys auto supply crimped on 14 ga wire . The DD hub motor had screw clamps for the wires, I crimped ring terminals on those 14 ga wires from battery to controller under the seat. I made brackets out of spam can lids to mount the controller to the seat post and frame. Use safety glasses when drilling or grinding. Stainless #10 screws with elastic stop nuts make fairly permanent mounting with the brackets.
As far as building the bike, I'm no help, there is enough junk on the curb or at the charity resale to keep me busy two lifetimes. I don't see the point of a carbon frame to save weight on an electric bike. The battery is 10-18 lb, the DD motor is about 10 lb. Pedaling that weight around helps me keep my own weight down, a real problem at age 68.

 

[GBananas]

The main thing you should be doing is research. I'm a big proponent of building your own battery packs and bikes. If you do your due diligence and buy the right components, not only will you save money but you'll get exactly what you want.

Just to give you a reference point, I'll skim through the costs of my build and problems I've had.

I started off with a Trek marlin 5, which was $539.99 from the Trek website. I chose it mainly because a - it's good looking, and b - it has a 7 speed rear cluster, which is ubiquitous with hub motor kits.

Got an idiot proof hub motor from Ebay - $173.99

I then moved on to the battery, which was one of my only problems before finding this forum. I got a cheap sunkko spot welder - $118. I then ordered 24, yes only 24 Samsung 30q cells from Vruzend. com. This was a nightmare, make sure your battery is rated for more amps than your controller can pull, otherwise it will get HOT, hot enough to melt your hot glue (which I hope no-one else uses) and probably short the battery. So I upsized the pack to 70x cells, no more heat problems.

The reason I hope no-one else uses hot glue is because my battery pack literally broke in half after hitting a pothole in the road. As another member has suggested, it's not the best engineering idea.

All in all, with 70x Samsung 30q cells, cell spacers, nickel strip, shrink wrap, a bms, xt60 connections, and a charger, the battery cost $406, with an expensive cell choice.

That leaves the bike rack, frame bag and pannier, which was like $90 all together.

So my total cost was $1327.98

Not only did I end up with a bike that rips up the trails, (uninhabited) has a top speed of 40mph, looks badass, and sparks good conversation, I got the learning experience. Worth it.

 

[J0nG0m]

Wasnt sure if you wanted to DIY just for the experience or to save money. If you really wanted to save money try to find ebikes on sale.

I DIY myself having built my own MTBs from the frameset since the early 90s (except for a specialized FSR FS bike I bought in 2000 and my new Bulls eMTB). Cost more but I get exactly what I want and have the tools to fix 99% of the problems I have.

The Bulls had an issue with the Suntour Fork (seals leaked due to bad assembly) and it was such a hassle to get fixed/replaced. The shop I go to is about 40 minutes away and when you figure in time at the shop its 2 hours round trip. Then there is the issue of trying to get the shop to correctly diagnose the problem which didnt happen the first time so it will require 3 round trips to get completely fixed. Its all being done under warranty except for shop time and the shop seems really helpful but I could have solved this quite awhile ago if I could buy the Suntour shock parts. Im waiting to find a takeoff RockShox for on ebay to replace it so I will have a shock I can work on and get parts for. I love every part on the bike except for the fork which I didnt like from the getgo. Time will tell how well the proprietary brose motor holds up.

The 2000 Specialized FSR had an issue with the bottom bracket backing out during a ride about 3 months into ownership. Specialized replaced the frame with a higher grade s works frame (frame cost about the same as the original whole bike) at no cost to me at all. That being said, Im a huge specialized fan and the LBS that sells them. IF they open more MTB trails around me I will be getting a 2019 base model turbo levo.

My TSDZ2 zaskar I built as a speed pedelec project just because. I wanted to try the opensource software and just fiddle with it. It has worked out well although not as cost effective as I would have liked. As an example, I can get a new 2017 Raleigh Redux IE brose equipped speed pedelec for $2200 locally. Although not as well equipped component wise a Juiced CCX is still a bargain and I love the potential range of that battery but whats up with a 9mm quickrelease on the front, seems sketchy to me for a speed pedelec. I would probably replace the fork with a rigid thru axle front fork but would then need to replace the front wheel with a new hub or just buy a new front wheel.

I went to the local ebike shop (not the same as I bought my bulls from) and talked with the owner for several hours about ebike stuff while he helped customers. He sells stromers, bintelli, haibike, yamaha, easymotion and magnum bikes. The amount of budget ebikes he sells is remarkable (over 350 magnum bikes this year).

I agree 100% with in terms of cost, the easy is always going to be the Branded product, whether you buy for a short or large budget. Now what I see is that bikes are not perfect either cheap or expensive ones, and as you've said is all about getting what you want. I have few frames laying around, but I don't want a hub drive because already have the Rad, so I'm focusing on the Bafang M620 mid drive system. Now that would be like half way DIY, but the Bafang system seems at least open enough for my demands, if I can play and tweak the system is a thing yet to discover

 

[J0nG0m]

Okay I've converted two bikes. Things that can go wrong, both e-bay and amazon batteries have been garbage. You have 31 days to figure it out and get your money back. You are not an authorized hazardous material shipper so you can't send the battery back. I finally bought a good battery from Luna-cycle, twice the price of the garbage.
Amazon & e-bay power wheels seem to be okay. I got a geared motor from ebikeling.com that stranded me twice but see batteries above, that was the problem. It had a nice display with settable parameters. $320. It is 24 miles away so I can't prove it good until May. The PAS magnet wheel didn't fit my 1970 crank so I had to bore out the middle, then mount it to the crank with glued wood strips. I had to mount the PAS pickup to the frame with a bracket I made from an old lawnmower, that screwed to the kick stand boss. The first time I mounted the PAS sensor I put it on backwards since there were no instructions. The hub motor did not fit in the front fork, I had to grind the slot out 2 mm with a 4 1/2" grinder. Use safety glasses. The nuts tended to loosen on the motor, I put on second ones from the motorcycle shop, 14mm x 1.75. Had to take the hall effect sensor connector off to do that, use a pick and make a drawing of the colors on the back before disassembly. Note some power wheels have double thick plastic wheels, requires a long stem tube only available on e-bay or amazon. I made a bracket to hold the LCD display up over the stem since it wouldn't fit on my handlebar anywhere I could see it.
I bought a second DD wheel from e-bay, no display, no PAS, works fine, $180. Nuts slip in the frame making tire rub, so I put on second ones I had to make since the motorcycle shop changed owners. I used a tap from victornet.com on 12 mm nuts. Takes a 1/2" drill.
The DD motor drags quite a bit but at least it works reliably. Pushing throttle all the time hurt my thumb on a 22 mile all power trip, building a twist throttle out of garolite tubing and steel wire.
The DD motor bound up on me requiring a friend to pick me up. Covers may be collapsing on the armature, no thrust bearing inside. I ground back the fat flange on the axle 1 mm on each side to fit through my $1800 frame then cut oblong holes in washers and thinned them out to fit inside the frame. So the pinching of the frame is now resisted by the washers inside the frame supported by the fat part of the axle. I used a 3"x1/16" wheel on a mandrel in a drill motor to grind back the axle flange. Use a vise-grip pliers on the back to keep the axle from rotating while grinding down. I make axle shaped holes in the washers and also metal strips for torque arms with nicholson triangle and round files. ****ese **** files from harbor freight will cost you 3 hours.
Wiring of the motor was obvious. To extend the power cables from battery to the controller mounted under my seat out of the rain on the geared hub drive I used dorman bullet connectors from oreilleys auto supply crimped on 14 ga wire . The DD hub motor had screw clamps for the wires, I crimped ring terminals on those 14 ga wires from battery to controller under the seat. I made brackets out of spam can lids to mount the controller to the seat post and frame. Use safety glasses when drilling or grinding. Stainless #10 screws with elastic stop nuts make fairly permanent mounting with the brackets.
As far as building the bike, I'm no help, there is enough junk on the curb or at the charity resale to keep me busy two lifetimes. I don't see the point of a carbon frame to save weight on an electric bike. The battery is 10-18 lb, the DD motor is about 10 lb. Pedaling that weight around helps me keep my own weight down, a real problem at age 68.

Thanks for sharing, sounds like you had fun with that build and that's exactly what I'm all about the experience of the building, looking forward for the part when you throw things against the wall on frustration and yet the Silver lining among those problems, is all about that.

The carbon frame it is also an experience for me, I have never experienced owning one (even though I have probably own more than a dozen bikes in my whole life) with their issues and benefits. Yes it might be an overkill for an ebike, hey but isn't it doing something custom always a bit like doing it for the sake of doing it?

 

[J0nG0m]

The main thing you should be doing is research. I'm a big proponent of building your own battery packs and bikes. If you do your due diligence and buy the right components, not only will you save money but you'll get exactly what you want.

Just to give you a reference point, I'll skim through the costs of my build and problems I've had.

I started off with a Trek marlin 5, which was $539.99 from the Trek website. I chose it mainly because a - it's good looking, and b - it has a 7 speed rear cluster, which is ubiquitous with hub motor kits.

Got an idiot proof hub motor from Ebay - $173.99

I then moved on to the battery, which was one of my only problems before finding this forum. I got a cheap sunkko spot welder - $118. I then ordered 24, yes only 24 Samsung 30q cells from Vruzend. com. This was a nightmare, make sure your battery is rated for more amps than your controller can pull, otherwise it will get HOT, hot enough to melt your hot glue (which I hope no-one else uses) and probably short the battery. So I upsized the pack to 70x cells, no more heat problems.

The reason I hope no-one else uses hot glue is because my battery pack literally broke in half after hitting a pothole in the road. As another member has suggested, it's not the best engineering idea.

All in all, with 70x Samsung 30q cells, cell spacers, nickel strip, shrink wrap, a bms, xt60 connections, and a charger, the battery cost $406, with an expensive cell choice.

That leaves the bike rack, frame bag and pannier, which was like $90 all together.

So my total cost was $1327.98

Not only did I end up with a bike that rips up the trails, (uninhabited) has a top speed of 40mph, looks badass, and sparks good conversation, I got the learning experience. Worth it.

Yes researching is where I'm at right now, I don't even know when exactly I want to do this, hopefully at least I will start to buy some stuff in the beginning of next year, frame and the motor at least.

Like I have answered to others here, maybe this is just a half DIY, because I know that I could pretty much do everything on my own but I want to start at this time around the Bafang M620 system which comes with: battery, sensor(s), display, crank, mid-drive motor, wires etc. And because I want to use the Bafang system then I need to find a frame for that specific G510 motor, so the only source for that is China.

As I read seems that a lot of issues are battery related, dont know how good or bad the Bafang battery can be, hopefully I can replace it if I need to.

Anyhow, for what you ended up paying for OWN bike seems quite good, and I bet that when people asks about it you proudly answer that you are the father of it, IT'S ALIVE!... And that's what I want, the experience even if I suck at it.