Bosch CX and Yamaha PW-X

[net200777]

I'm curious why do dealers charge more for Bosch? Which system is the most preferred?(mountain biking) Which system has the reputation of lasting longer? Speaking of when a warranty runs out, which system is more expensive to maintain or are they about the same? Thank you

 

[Deleted member 803]

It really has nothing to do with the dealers. The bike manufacturers enter into oem agreements with part suppliers like Bosch. I suspect that Bosch has muscled its reputation for quality and durability into higher oem costs for the bike manufacturers. Another factor is volume. I am sure that Bosch has some level of tiered pricing for volume levels.

 

[Deleted member 803]

Not sure that modern day mid-drives have been around long enough to have a handle on repair cost history. I'm guessing the difference in repair costs, assuming the same issues, is de minimis. Probably a more important consideration is which mid-drive parts supplier offers better dealer training and assistance.

 

[Manu]

The TOP bosch engine is more electric power and naturally you pay more,350w.
It is the most prepared engine for the speed unlocked inside the pedelec of 25 km / h.
The most expensive is undoubtedly the emtb.
It is a periodical maintenance of 6 months / 12 months of the hydraulic suspensions and the only way to lower the cost is that the user knows mechanics and does the same, together, seals, inflator for suspensions, replacement of the hydraulic fluid and adjustment of the SAC to the weight of the client and the pedelec.

The double suspension emtb are the most expensive in maintenance but also the most durable in asphalt and greater comfort.
It does not have top speed but it has off-road conditions that are valid in 90% of the climates except for a lot of snow and sand where the big fat is the queen, the bad the cost to greater suspensions maintenances and a review of the rear tilting train.

 

[net200777]

The TOP bosch engine is more electric power and naturally you pay more,350w.
It is the most prepared engine for the speed unlocked inside the pedelec of 25 km / h.
The most expensive is undoubtedly the emtb.
It is a periodical maintenance of 6 months / 12 months of the hydraulic suspensions and the only way to lower the cost is that the user knows mechanics and does the same, together, seals, inflator for suspensions, replacement of the hydraulic fluid and adjustment of the SAC to the weight of the client and the pedelec.

The double suspension emtb are the most expensive in maintenance but also the most durable in asphalt and greater comfort.
It does not have top speed but it has off-road conditions that are valid in 90% of the climates except for a lot of snow and sand where the big fat is the queen, the bad the cost to greater suspensions maintenances and a review of the rear tilting train.

You say 350w for the Bosch CX I presume. How bout the Yamaha PW-X for example, it's rated at 500w. Strange thing is a lot of dealers say that Yamaha has almost 0 returns or problems motor wise. Could be due to the fact less people have them(not sure). Also I noticed that the battery cycle guarantee is 700 whereas the Bosch battery is only 500.

 

[rich c]

I suspect that Bosch has muscled its reputation for quality and durability into higher oem costs for the bike manufacturers.

Curious statement. I'd suggest they have to charge a premium because it costs more to produce something that reliable. Just my experience though. I'm a big Bosch fan, probably always will be now after more than a year of ownership. I have 3,000 miles on two Haibikes, and I'll gladly pay the premium in the future as they've been incredibly reliable. My friend just got back after a month in Florida. He also rides Bosch. He stopped in and talked to some local dealers and looked at renting while in Florida. He was told Bosch is about the only system that dealer sells, that holds up to the salt water fog and spray that covers that section of Florida almost every morning. My friend said a 2 year old traditional bike in that neighborhood looked like it was 10 years old.

 

[Manu]

One thing is the original design watts and otherwise the nominal power. I mean the design in watts of origin.100 watts more for the bosch cx.
As designed with 100 watts but exceed 500 watts is not always a problem.

I understand that specifications are that the battery is for 700 cycles but the most important from my point of view is the operation of that battery in more extreme temperatures such as -15 or -20º Celsius, as some Norwegians comment with Haibike and Yamaha PW.they comment positively.

To load it you need your 0º celsius or more.

The advantage of the Yamaha is that disconnected looks like a normal bicycle except that it weighs 23 kilos but you still get a good compromise in flat terrain and very good in descent with all that system off.
The second strong point is the support from zero speed, it is mandatary in climbing.

The third point is that it has a greater range with the same battery of 500w of other systems therefore the battery cycle equivalence, cost and kilometer travel changes. More kilometers traveled per battery cycle used. you take more time to buy a new battery.

The concept of Yamaha is: not only is climbing the mountain as fast as possible, it is also lowering it as quickly as possible and without using the battery, reserve the battery for the next climb.

Analysis
Bosch: diesel engine developer and its evolution, automotive industry
Brose: specialist in specific electric motors, example Mercedes / Bmw wiper motors, etc.Industry automotive
Yamaha: Motorcycle engines, etc, Automotive industry
Shimano: Bicycle industry

All central engine.

This is not a Chinese rear hub engine, all these are good engines with their concept.

The automotive equivalent to the versions of cars and motorcycles.

What is missing is the regenerative brake option for all of them and not the abs they can carry in the future.

There are people who are 3 years old with bosch and now they have Yamaha and they are happy and maybe you put a Brose in their hands tomorrow and they are still happy

 

[rich c]

Analysis
Bosch: diesel engine developer and its evolution, automotive industry
Brose: specialist in specific electric motors, example Mercedes / Bmw wiper motors, etc.Industry automotive
Yamaha: Motorcycle engines, etc, Automotive industry
Shimano: Bicycle industry

Bosch is a diesel engine developer? They just make components. The company started by making magnetos. The early goal was to be a Workshop for Precision Mechanics and Electrical Engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH
https://www.bosch.com/our-company/our-history/

 

[net200777]

One thing is the original design watts and otherwise the nominal power. I mean the design in watts of origin.100 watts more for the bosch cx.
As designed with 100 watts but exceed 500 watts is not always a problem.

I understand that specifications are that the battery is for 700 cycles but the most important from my point of view is the operation of that battery in more extreme temperatures such as -15 or -20º Celsius, as some Norwegians comment with Haibike and Yamaha PW.

To load it you need your 0º celsius or more.

The advantage of the Yamaha is that disconnected looks like a normal bicycle except that it weighs 23 kilos but you still get a good compromise in flat terrain and very good in descent with all that system off.
The second strong point is the support from zero speed, it is mandatary in climbing.

The third point is that it has a greater range with the same battery of 500w of other systems therefore the battery cycle equivalence, cost and kilometer travel changes. More kilometers traveled per battery cycle used. You take more time to replace the battery.

Analysis
Bosch: diesel engine developer and its evolution, automotive industry
Brose: specialist in specific electric motors, example Mercedes / Bmw wiper motors, etc.Industry automotive
Yamaha: Motorcycle engines, etc, Automotive industry
Shimano: Bicycle industry

All central engine.

This is not a Chinese rear hub engine, all these are good engines with their concept.

The automotive equivalent to the versions of cars and motorcycles.

What is missing is the regenerative brake option for all of them and not the abs they can carry in the future.

There are people who are 3 years old with bosch and now they have Yamaha and they are happy and maybe you put a brose in their hands tomorrow and they are still happy

Is the Bosch not capable of the same "instant torque"? Wouldn't that make it less desirable for steep climbing?

 

[rich c]

Every electric motor is capable of instant torque, no matter who makes them.

 

[Manu]

You have not understood the basis of the diesel engine on which the German engines are based and developed by bosh, then every manufacturer adds to the engine what it considers, turbo high and low pressure, etc.


the bosch delivers power at 20rpm or cadence, it is not comfortable to be below that rate in certain gradients where you will not get that rpm or cadence.That is solved to a great extent with the cassette that reaches up to 46 t and the disk of 16 or 15 teeth.

But it has another drawback and is in the descent of the mountain where to be limited to 25km / h because in fast tracings is hanging, in fact in descent in a path within 25 km / h comparing it with a mtb without motor earns very Little time of the order of 1 second and this done by the same pilot.

If you put it unloked at 50km / h it spends battery but it greatly improves the time of descent.

 

[rich c]

You're right, it's hard to understand when engine is interchanged between diesel and an electric motor. Then you use a measure of speed that requires me to do a conversion. I really don't understand what you are saying with this first sentence, is the "German engines" a diesel or electric since you combine diesel and turbo high and low pressure, Plus I have no idea where Bosch even comes into play here? What parts did they design? I also have no idea what "fast tracings is hanging" means.

 

[Manu]

http://es.bosch-automotive.com/en/i...ssories/motor_and_sytems/diesel/diesel_4.html
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/es/index.aspx
https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/e-bike-systems/index.html


This is not developed by a small company, it is developed by large companies and their subsidiaries.

you have a mountain descent -40º is a long straight asphalt, as you will understand the 25 km / h of motor assistance were completed in the first meters of the route,You are out of drive unit bosch assistance, you have more than 25 km / h and the engine does not assistand you only have to fall by gravity and against the resistance of the wind and finish the road several kilometers.
Example you got a time of 20 minutes in finishing that road.


As a cheap bicycle with four less price to a pedelec bosch simply by having a plate or disk of 30 teeth or 48 teeth improves the time of descent of the bosch.

And the road ends in 15 minutes for example.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
https://www.haibike.com/es/ES/bikes/626/2018-seet-dwnhll-9-0


And they do not have a drive unit.


The bosch is only good at the mountain descent when the route has many curves and does not exceed 25km / h.

In a mixed mountain descent of many curves and long straights it does not adapt well because it only gives good results within 25km / h in the zone of curves.


In descent of mountain, in straights, it loses time against systems of plate and disc bigger in other ebike, because you are outside the range of the drive unit bosch of 25km / h and your human pedaling does not contribute more speed.


In mountain bike there is no plate or discs smaller than 20 t.
15 t, 16t, 18t, these are special dishes designed by bosch for pedelec and are very limited to exceed 25km / h with only the human pedaling.

The option is to unlock the speed at 50km / h,and spend more battery in the descent.
Bosch should equip a second plate with more teeth

 

[rich c]

But it has another drawback and is in the descent of the mountain where to be limited to 25km / h because in fast tracings is hanging,

Still curious what "fast tracings is hanging" means.

 

[Nova Haibike]

I am not a dealer, so I do not have experience or numbers. But given that Yamaha has been doing e-bike systems for 25 years, I would think their products should be as reliable as Bosch, even if the PW system was not introduced until well after Bosch had captured the lion's share of the mid-drive market.

 

[Dmitri]

I own both Bosch CX and Yamaha PW bikes so maybe I can weigh in here:

• Bosch has an infuriating delay between when you start turning pedals and when contact - even mechanical contact - engages. This is infuriating after you try Yamaha.
• Bosch often over/underestimates the amount of torque that I need. In particular, when I'm in low gear, it sometimes gives way too much
• The experience of starting up from stationary on Yamaha is buttery smooth. On Bosch, it's a lot less comfortable.
• The small front sprocket on Bosch means you cannot efficiently pedal with no battery power. On Yamaha it's easy.

On the other hand, Bosch has DualBattery, (arguably) better displays and is generally more technologically advanced. Also, I think Bosch themselves realize that a small sprocket is not the way to go, so they'll probably shift to a larger one as time goes by. I doubt they'll move over to support a front derailleur, though.

Now, speaking of the front derailleur, even though there's really no problem in putting a 1x11 or Rohloff on an ebike, what the 2x systems lets you do is put a 7-speed (DH-type) sprocket on the rear of the bike. This is already done on some ebikes anyway (e.g., the kids' Haibike has a Yamaha and an 11-32 in the rear).

To sum up, what I want is Bosch with Yamaha's speed of drive engagement, a large front sprocket, and the support for a front derailleur, while probably unnecessary for all practical purposes, is also nice to have.

 

[net200777]

I own both Bosch CX and Yamaha PW bikes so maybe I can weigh in here:

• Bosch has an infuriating delay between when you start turning pedals and when contact - even mechanical contact - engages. This is infuriating after you try Yamaha.
• Bosch often over/underestimates the amount of torque that I need. In particular, when I'm in low gear, it sometimes gives way too much
• The experience of starting up from stationary on Yamaha is buttery smooth. On Bosch, it's a lot less comfortable.
• The small front sprocket on Bosch means you cannot efficiently pedal with no battery power. On Yamaha it's easy.

On the other hand, Bosch has DualBattery, (arguably) better displays and is generally more technologically advanced. Also, I think Bosch themselves realize that a small sprocket is not the way to go, so they'll probably shift to a larger one as time goes by. I doubt they'll move over to support a front derailleur, though.

Now, speaking of the front derailleur, even though there's really no problem in putting a 1x11 or Rohloff on an ebike, what the 2x systems lets you do is put a 7-speed (DH-type) sprocket on the rear of the bike. This is already done on some ebikes anyway (e.g., the kids' Haibike has a Yamaha and an 11-32 in the rear).

To sum up, what I want is Bosch with Yamaha's speed of drive engagement, a large front sprocket, and the support for a front derailleur, while probably unnecessary for all practical purposes, is also nice to have.

Well written. Does your opinion carry over to the pwx?

 

[Dmitri]

@net200777 I have no experience with PW-X so really cannot comment.