Battery/Motor efficiency/range question

[Ebikelife72]

Other than software changes to the settings, what effects range and motor efficiency? I’m very aware of rider weight, terrain, wind, elevation, etc and how that effects the range. I’m specifically asking about cadence range. I’m asking because during a ride earlier with my wife, she on her Vado 4 and me on my Tero X 5, I noticed that she seemed to be getting better range than me though she used sport and turbo mode fairly often whereas I only used eco. Both bikes have the same battery/motor. I’ve taken her lower weight into consideration and it doesn’t seem to account for the total difference. I’m curious of if cadence range makes a difference. I always try to keep my cadence in the green area and typically have a cadence of 75-90. I don’t know wat my wife’s cadence is but I doubt she pays attention to such things. Understand I’m in no way upset with my range, I can comfortably get 65-75 miles per charge.

 

[harryS]

My wife weighs around 128 pounds, but I am 65 lbs more. Riding similar bikes with the same hubmotor, I seem to use 30-40% more power on the same route. This is based on the WH needed to recharge both batteries, I used the same meter to measure it. Based on quite a few comparisons,. Also have compared with our midmotor bike kits, which use the same motor. Also a 30% difference.

I do tend to get out ahead of her, and slow down to let her catch up. This will burn more power since I accelerate more weight than she does, and I do it more often.

 

[Ebikelife72]

My wife weighs around 128 pounds, but I am 65 lbs more. Riding similar bikes with the same hubmotor, I seem to use 40% more power on the same route. This is based on the AH needed to recharge both batteries, I used the same meter to measure it.

I do tend to get out ahead of her, and slow down to let her catch up. This will burn more power since I accelerate more weight than she does, and I do it more often.

Yes, I’m aware of the differences in weight effecting range, but I don’t our weight difference accounts for the total difference. I believe there is more at play and think it could be linked to cadence.

 

[BlackHand]

Are you close enough in size to swap bikes? That would tell you useful info.

As Harry alluded to riding style, including cadence, may have a lot to do with it.

All things being equal, I would think the Vado should get better range - I'm surprised its only listed as 5 miles max better range than the Tero X. The full suspension and knobby tires of the Tero X would introduce inefficiencies in addition to your weight difference.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Let me quote myself from one of the earlier Forum posts:

The famous Specialized motto is "Cadence is the King (or Queen)". Mid-drive motors are happy with higher cadence because they become more efficient and deliver more torque there.

You can try it on a short climb, say, up an overpass in ECO mode. If you are struggling at, say, 50 rpm, you would notice how reluctantly your e-bike provides the assistance. Downshift dramatically and start spinning (even you will feel silly about it). Suddenly, your e-bike will start, like, lifting you up the hill! One of my favourite tricks on group rides is dramatically downshifting and spinning the cranks like a madman. My e-bike (regardless Vado or Vado SL) shoots forward, and my buddies are left in the dust (some start sprinting to prove themselves!) I always tell them later I hadn't even touched the assistance handlebar remote: It was only the matter of spinning the cranks.

Your leg power input (simplistically saying) is how hard you are pushing the pedals (torque) times how fast you are rotating the cranks (cadence). It is often easier to produce greater leg power by spinning than by grinding the cranks. Also, the motor loves to be spinning, and it reaches it maximum efficiency above the cadence of 70 rpm. Specialized Mastermind display is even colour-coded to encourage you to pedal at higher cadence! Proper cadence means more efficient motor equals longer battery range.

Are you close enough in size to swap bikes? That would tell you useful info.

A splendid idea!

P.S. I have recently selected the ideal chainring size for my both Specialized e-bikes (based on my long time experience). As I currently ride at very low assistance or even unassisted, the chainring size keeps me at the cadence >80 rpm for the gears I'm using the most. The battery range has improved beyond my expectations on assisted rides!

 

[Ebikelife72]

I figured cadence was the main difference. It seems like my wife may keep her bike in lower gear and spinning at a higher cadence, I’d guess in the 85-95 range whereas I probably stay in the 75-80 range. I wish I could put a larger chain ring on the Tero but there’s just no room. I think when the cassette wears out I’ll likely replace it with a 10-50t to gain the extra high gear. The Vado is quite impressive with how easy it is to get up to speed. Were it not for wanting full suspension I’d have gone for the Vado for the speed alone, plus I find it to be a great looking bike. That said, I absolutely love the Tero X, it’s an extremely comfortable bike, much more so than my ‘21 Stumpjumper.

 

[Nubnub]

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the difference is the tires. Vado has pathfinders, Tero X has ground controls. On my Tero (no x) the original Ground Controls range was around 20-40% less than the S-Works pathfinders that I replaced them with for awhile. Later I replaced the pathfinders with Rhombus tires. Those are better than the ground controls but worse than the pathfinders. This is all on the same bike with the only variable changed being the tires.

 

[Ebikelife72]

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the difference is the tires. Vado has pathfinders, Tero X has ground controls. On my Tero (no x) the original Ground Controls range was around 20-40% less than the S-Works pathfinders that I replaced them with for awhile. Later I replaced the pathfinders with Rhombus tires. Those are better than the ground controls but worse than the pathfinders. This is all on the same bike with the only variable changed being the tires.

That very well may be the difference. I didn’t take the differences of the tires into consideration. For the riding I like to do I’m better off with the ground controls. I really like the stock Vado tires and am considering getting a Vado 4 for myself in addition to the Tero. I’ll probably wait and see what they do for 2024.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I probably stay in the 75-80 range.

It is a very good figure of the cadence. You do not need to improve on that!

I think when the cassette wears out I’ll likely replace it with a 10-50t to gain the extra high gear.

If I'm not wrong, it would require installing the SRAM xD freehub body. After doing that (and installing the 10-50T cassette), you would be probably riding mostly in the top gear, meaning the smallest cassette sprocket would be wearing out first and at an alarming rate. SRAM cassettes are not serviceable, meaning significant maintenance cost to you. Please reconsider that idea

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the difference is the tires.

It makes a lot of sense.

I really like the stock Vado tires and am considering getting a Vado 4 for myself in addition to the Tero. I’ll probably wait and see what they do for 2024.

Meanwhile, enjoy your Tero X! It is such a good e-bike! You say you like the range, so why worry at all?

My Vado 6.0 is different from the current Vados but it came with a 48T chainring (same as the current Vados) for speed. After years of experimenting, I standardized on a 44T chainring that:

• Allows me for easier climbs at low assistance levels
• Has increased my cadence above 80
• Ensures higher acceleration (at the cost of higher cadence)

However, if I were to go to the high mountains for vacation, I promise I would replace the chainring with a 38T one as yours!

 

[Ebikelife72]

It is a very good figure of the cadence. You do not need to improve on that!

If I'm not wrong, it would require installing the SRAM xD freehub body. After doing that (and installing the 10-50T cassette), you would be probably riding mostly in the top gear, meaning the smallest cassette sprocket would be wearing out first and at an alarming rate. SRAM cassettes are not serviceable, meaning significant maintenance cost to you. Please reconsider that idea

It makes a lot of sense.


Meanwhile, enjoy your Tero X! It is such a good e-bike! You say you like the range, so why worry at all?

My Vado 6.0 is different from the current Vados but it came with a 48T chainring (same as the current Vados) for speed. After years of experimenting, I standardized on a 44T chainring that:

• Allows me for easier climbs at low assistance levels
• Has increased my cadence above 80
• Ensures higher acceleration (at the cost of higher cadence)

However, if I were to go to the high mountains for vacation, I promise I would replace the chainring with a 38T one as yours!

I absolutely will be enjoying my Tero X, hopefully for years to come. I’m not worried about the range, but was more just curious about the difference and also how to best maximize the efficiency through cadence. Good point on xD freehub, I’ll need to look into that but hopefully not anytime soon. The Tero X is a fantastic all around bike and does what it was designed to do extremely well. It’s certainly a better bike for my purposes than the Vado, but I just really also like the Vado. My wife loves hers.

 

[dougth]

I got a Tero 3.0 a couple weeks ago and am very happy. I was a fast road biker for 30+ years and loved it, but after a bad crash at 66 and a knee replacement at 70 I lost a lot of strength and lost a lot of the enjoyment of biking. Moved to gravel biking for more adventures, but my speed was disheartening. Hated the idea of moving to an ebike but after last year's annual 400 mile ride across western Ne. I started rethinking that. Ended up with the Turbo Tero 3.0 and have rediscovered enjoying biking/training. Lots of hills around here and l was concerned about range on a 60+ mile ride Last Fri. I did 62 miles and ended up with a battery reserve of 42 miles when done so I'm happy. I ride with no assistance when possible, and will go up to 30% assistance on climbs, which makes them way more palatable. Gearing isn't low enough to keep my cadence above 70 on those climbs but it still gets me up there so I'm not too sure about changing out cassettes. My only concern would be battery life on an 80 mile day with an all-day killer headwind, that would require judicious battery monitoring. Bottom line-the guy who said he'd never ride an e-bike is glad he made the switch! Still not sharing that fact with all of my younger past riding buddies from all over the country though......