Batteries batteries batteries, one big reason why choose an established ebike brand with good reputation.
- Thread starter Trail Cruiser
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Most battery fires are caused by mechanical damage to battery - not BMS and not a charger. Usually after car accident. Internal short in the cell causes it to ignite, - may happen days and months after the accident. Don't be cheap, don't buy Li batteries from scraped cars - there are plenty on Ebay and Craigs, stay away from it. Li battery CAN be dangerous.
Established good brands... Mark, I hear you about the rise of China - when most companies decided to move manufacturing there - and the resulting demise of most manufacturing sectors in the US and Europe. Yes, greed and stupidity, welcome to capitalism, what else is new?...
99.9% of chance that a good established brand of ebike will still be made of Chinese parts - INCLUDING BATTERY - and largely assembled in China too. Bosch is about to stop making EV batteries (or have already stopped, this year). You can't compete with people working for $1.50 an hour. Should've thought about it earlier, before giving them the technologies.
Established good brands... Mark, I hear you about the rise of China - when most companies decided to move manufacturing there - and the resulting demise of most manufacturing sectors in the US and Europe. Yes, greed and stupidity, welcome to capitalism, what else is new?...
99.9% of chance that a good established brand of ebike will still be made of Chinese parts - INCLUDING BATTERY - and largely assembled in China too. Bosch is about to stop making EV batteries (or have already stopped, this year). You can't compete with people working for $1.50 an hour. Should've thought about it earlier, before giving them the technologies.
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tomjasz
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Great! I thought the too, and more...
Or that these weren't Lipo? ALL but a very few batteries come from China. I'd bet 95% or MORE OEM's use China builders. AND they buy fairly cheap, but set standards. I buy direct from China and know my builder. Even those fellas in California that CLAIM to build batteries in the USA are China batteries for the most parts. Lets be careful to not confuse and fear monger without clear explanations and data.
rich c
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Chinese factories can make excellent quality parts, but they build to the ordering companies specifications. When the ordering company insists on a certain price point, the Chinese have to do something to meet that cost. Insist on junk level costs, you have to get junk parts. Customers are the second driving factor in pricing. Even enthusiasts on this forum complain about the price of eBikes. A long post here was about why we can't get cheap bikes like they do in the Far East. Insist on an eBike for less than $1000, guess what quality of components you are going to get? Also guess why you can't get it made in a country where cost of living is high. Same reason junk aftermarket battery packs are sold. Nearly everyone cries about an $800+ replacement battery pack.
Asher
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That's an exaggeration.
To an outsider, it's impossible to tell what is too low to get decent quality. Juiced sells batteries for half the price of Stromer. And half that is Sondors. I know Juiced is quality. Is Sondors? And below Sondors? Stromer would love to have you believe you need to spend $2k on 1 kwh to avoid burning your house down. So would Juiced on its $1k battery.
There is a line somewhere, obviously, but every seller is going to say its just below him, so therefore he is the best value.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
rich c
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Which part is an exaggeration?
Absent buying utter crap bikes from Amazon or Alibaba, it's not a worry, as nobody is willing to risk a brand selling junk batteries
There are batteries and then there are batteries. Can buy lower Grade B or C cells for cheap because they have lower power density. Similar idea with computer chips - only a certain small percentage perform at optimum range, and they command a premium price.
Sondors surely isn't selling Grade A battery packs, any more than their bikes are Grade A.
That said, Chinese are notorious for relabeling used/inferior cells and buying random battery packs w/out ability for on-site QA and independent testing is just asking for trouble.
The bikes that I'd never have in my house are those sold on Amazon/Alibaba - $600 delivered - yikes.
The very term "brand" becomes vague, this days. Factories in China cobble out thousands of bikes and batteries under hundreds names.
Example 1.
Company A is based in China and sells a bike on Alibaba for $900 (a bike can be $600, but shipping from 'baba is not cheap). Other than replacement within 2 weeks, there is no support - you have to locate and buy a replacement controller, battery or motor.
Example 2.
Company B has a "front" in Canada or US, keeps one or two clerks, and sells essentially same bike made on the same factory, or aptly cloned at the factory next door, for $1,200 shipped directly to buyer. Controller is dead on arrival or battery poops out within a week - they ship you a replacement. Some do this better, some worse. Some want you to pay for replacement after one month, some after 6 months. I can name several "brands" like this - no, wait, they've already been named above
Example 3.
Company C does same thing as company B, only keeps brick and mortar stores and dealers, and sells essentially same bike or a very similar clone for $2,000. The cost of battery increases accordingly too, from $300 in #1 to $400 in #2 to $700 in #3.
Both company B and C invest in "some" design work prior to taking your money - they need to locate a suitable factory, size of controller, motor and battery. There is little to invent, all parts already exist, but some leg work needs to be done. They also provide support - though you you have to pay for any support after a few months, not to mention paying more up-front. "Usually" they also invest more in QA.
I'm not saying that item A is the same as the one in B and C, just to point out how little "brand" means these days. Thomas mentioned a Hong reseller of batteries who is not a brand by himself, and neither are those batteries, - just somebody with good business reputation that you may deal with, and get same results as with B and C, for fraction of the cost.
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rich c
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You are assuming there is no A, B, or C quality parts. I know more about woodworking machinery. Big brand companies have their machinery made in the same factory as the cheap brands. When Delta Machinery was still an American company, they had quality control people on staff in the company. They rejected cast iron castings when it did not meet spec. They didn’t scrap the parts, they were put in the cheap brand machines. No idea if bike companies do the same. I knew executives in woodworking companies, I know no one in the bike companies.
Asher
Well-Known Member
People want low prices but not when it means their bike will self detonate.
The problem is no one really knows what is good and what isn't, at least until it's been around for a bit. So people want the champagne of batteries at the cost of Miller Lite ones.
Asher
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Do you know what Sondors uses? What is the difference between say Juiced and Stromer? If any, besides custom engineering for the case.
rich c
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According to this site; (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
How is it possible for the range to vary so much in two packs exactly the same size, both containing name brand 18650 cells?
There is a big difference in the performance of different 18650 cells even when they are made by big name makers like Samsung or Panasonic. For example the stock Sondors pack contains this Samsung cell which has very poor energy density 2200mah and also very low price.
The Luna pack uses the Panasonic NCRB cell, which has a very high energy density 3400mah and also a high price.
How is it possible for the range to vary so much in two packs exactly the same size, both containing name brand 18650 cells?
There is a big difference in the performance of different 18650 cells even when they are made by big name makers like Samsung or Panasonic. For example the stock Sondors pack contains this Samsung cell which has very poor energy density 2200mah and also very low price.
The Luna pack uses the Panasonic NCRB cell, which has a very high energy density 3400mah and also a high price.
Asher
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rich c
Well-Known Member
Huh? Mister M was talking about battery packs, and you asked, Do you know what Sondors uses? What were you referencing?
Asher
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Asher
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Any ideas why their battery is so much cheaper? Much cheaper than Luna.
tomjasz
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You paint with to broad of a brush. China is a big place with many good builders. It just takes some work, reading and checking ou5 videos and YouTube sites and one can sort out the junk. A maker can make many levels of quality, all based on the buyers demands.
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