BarnBoy’s 24V EVG Battery Improvement Project…

[kauaikit]

Oh s*it....you are right, the 24v controller SHUT off the power from the battery as you hit LV, or around 21v?!? Battery is ok. So, yes you need a 7s to up your voltage to get the range with the increase ah batteries. DOH, why didn't I think of that?!? Oh wait, I never spent any time with a 24v except one I upgraded years ago with a later model Ultra Motors Tres Terra 36v controller/throttle, as the the stock 24v controller went south after someone had over volted it and blew the 26v capacitor! It was a trade. Ummm.....maybe I should ride it soon with a 12s4p EVG ebike battery pack?

So, what level speeds are you getting on P w/6s & how the hell did you get 27.4mph? And going 26.2mi distance, does that mean leg cramps tonight 'ol man?

I assume you upgraded the rear freewheel, and do you feel a difference from a 14t to a 11t? And what front chainring tooth size are you now running?

I rode my '13 A2B Shima today, a 28mph PAS ebike, and my niece rode my '00 EVG PE (Police Edition) eBike, upgraded with a MagicPie MP4 rear hub (all stock EVG electronics left intact) with a 14s4p (19.2ah) Tesla Mdl 3 21700 pack in a stock 36v battery box, and a 14s2p (8ah Samsung 21700 40t) in the stock EVG rear rack bag for a paralleled 27.2ah battery pack. She hit 30+mph level speed.

Kk

 

[BarnBoy]

Hi @kauaikit - hopefully I will get all questions answered...
I think I just stupidly pressed Cruze Control last time and drained the battery. It went to 32% after charger was attached and I suspect the pack BMS reset. On my test yesterday 59% of 28Ah is (0.41 * 28 =>) 11.5Ah of of use. I monitored the 2A charger and it went from RED to GRN in 5.5hours. That is 11Ah. So another tick in the positive column for this 28Ah pack from China. So what if EVG monitor LED is red as long as it doesn’t turn off. So far was battery shutdown before EVG. But I have more tricks to come to monitor and prevent this....
The motor will push me up to about 12MPH. Above 14MPH is me so I stop motor on flat and wind advantaged sections, and turn it on if less than 11MPH. Currently using the old 14-28 cassette ratio but got a new chain and 11-28 cassette (is needed before next ride!!). Will need to go to the LBS as I do not have the spanner wrench to remover the twist on. But yes I top the thing out at 19MPH so >20MPH is a clear down hill glide section...
And I am surprised that I feel good today. Will try for >30 miles later today. Same basic path for easy rescue until I get confidence and the power meter installed....
This was the EVG Touring model; <<20 miles is a small tour IMHO....
The new crank is a common 104 BCD so super easy to get low cost ring on ePay. Currently have a round 34 but thinking oval 34 or larger. I can hear the cyclical surging of the motor when matched. How big of a chain ring can I go without having to remove chain guard and/or customize the case?? I really like these low cost Ganopper cranks!

So do you spot weld your Mdl3 packs??
-BB

 

[kauaikit]

Hey BB.....my understanding is the LV (low voltage) cutout for the 24v EVG ebike controller, with SLA, was around 21v (12v-10.8v or 24v 21.6v). What was your battery voltage when it stopped? And did you let the ebike battery set a bit, then power up & try the throttle again?

So, you went 20 miles & used 11.5ah, wouldn't a 7s5p or 24ah (21700 cell @ 4800ah) pack handle any range anxiety? This is the size battery I'd suggest for the 24v EVG ebikes put inside the stock battery case. And, I'd even use the stock charger (after slight adj.), though I know it's setup for a SLA and may not be perfect for the lithium cell.

Not sure of the largest size for the front chainring before you have to remove the chain guard or do a bit of case trimming as I'm of the mindset to "GO BIG", or go home! Ha.

I order all parts needed to assemble a battery, but I have a local company, Fth Power (City of Industry) that assembles the packs ($100'ish) with the spot-welding & connecting the BMS. I now have 6 complete packs using the 21700 sized cells, and getting ready to put another two (11s5p & 13s4p) packs together. They work.

Any plans to update, or EV assist your 'ol Ford? I have a '15 Ford Pie/Paddy wagon & '19 Ford flatbed (w/elec. starter) which would be fun to add a little electrical assist. Though, I do have a '17 Couple Gear Electric trunk in the rear 3 vehicle garage, last driven 40 yrs ago, just waiting to be charged back up!

Kk

 

[BarnBoy]

@kauaikit - you must be laughing at me real hard by now. If not you, every LBS in the Pleasanton - Diablo Valley area is laughing at me. I bought a HG41 7speed cassette thinking that would work; WRONG! All LBS told me a 28-11 is not available. I know you showed me several on ePay and thus have one on order. Missed the point that these are DNP screw in style so the whole free wheel ratchet is replaced. Thank you for that lead!!!
And the curse continues! Looks like the ride yesterday took out 2 rear spokes. And none of the LBS had them in stock, so I am grounded for a week or two until they come in. Will post the length needed later. Grrrrrr.......
Notified that the power meter is out for delivery.....
Future packs will be 7s5p. My combiner and the little meters will allow that configuration! So anyone that follows this on their EVG, go 7s5p. You can fit x2. And I’m hoping to get a century out of my packs (if the second arrives!).....
To be continued....
-BB

 

[kauaikit]

BB.....actually NO, as a collector & rider of these 20'ish yo EVG ebikes, it's respectful that you have the "passion" to keep your 24v ebike running as designed and now doing the upgrades that should have been done when they first came out!

From memory, I have around 7 24v EVG ebikes, purchased for a song while looking for the 36v versions, and my personal choice the Tidalforce ebikes. Now, you can laugh.

"Everyone laughed @ me because I was different, though I laughed @ them because they were all the same!"

A shame you are so far away, as I'd assist you in your "hobby" and cardio machine, even loaning you a front or rear wheel while you get yours repaired.

Now, you do need a BACKUP EVG ebike to ride while one is down, or the wifey can ride too, and the collection begins!

Kk

 

[harryS]

This was a fun thread to follow. I just found it.

If I had been here earlier, I would have muttered something about those 5P 28AH Okoman packs, which would be using those 5.3AH 18650 cells that don't exist. You can barely get 5aH in the 21700 cells.

Worse than the blatant lies are that they usually put in really crap cells that fall apart when they hit 50% capacity. Voltage sag, or whatever. Let's say it's really a 10-12AH pack, but you can only get half of that.

I do admit to playing with cheap chinese packs to power my smaller motors. I pick a vendor with a reasonable claim, say a 2P 6AH pack, and am happy when I get 4.6AH. I would probably get over 5AH if it wasn't an ebike. Plus they work smoothly down to 20%, although I rarely run them under 50% .

 

[BarnBoy]

Hello again!
First tidbit of information that maybe handy is the rear 24V motor uses 212mm 13gage spokes on either side. I will have ton of spares...

So in the down time I made a couple of resistor battery loads to test the Okoman and other batteries. I also got the power meter. It is rather large so I placed it up where the SLA charger resided. Also added the battery gage for the second battery. So when/if it comes, the battery box will be ready. Looks good,eh?



The two tests were at 20W and 50W loads. I generated voltage -vs Ah plots. They basically look identical and clearly indicate the pack is not 28Ah but 6Ah. I am in contact with seller....

@harryS - you are correct, below 50% operation is not going to last long! This explains why I needed a rescue....

Hopefully spokes will arrive soon!
-BB

 

[kauaikit]

Hello again!
First tidbit of information that maybe handy is the rear 24V motor uses 212mm 13gage spokes on either side. I will have ton of spares...

So in the down time I made a couple of resistor battery loads to test the Okoman and other batteries. I also got the power meter. It is rather large so I placed it up where the SLA charger resided. Also added the battery gage for the second battery. So when/if it comes, the battery box will be ready. Looks good,eh?

View attachment 87506

The two tests were at 20W and 50W loads. I generated voltage -vs Ah plots. They basically look identical and clearly indicate the pack is not 28Ah but 6Ah. I am in contact with seller....

@Harry- you are correct, below 50% operation is not going to last long! This explains why I needed a rescue....
View attachment 87507
View attachment 87508

Hopefully spokes will arrive soon!
-BB

Hey BB.....if you use Facebook, you can check out Mark (Utah) and his "upgrades", and parts for the EVG ebikes.

Electric Wheels of Utah

Electric Wheels of Utah. 109 likes. Dedicated to keeping the old Ebikes going that lee Iacocca built between 1999-2004 new and used pa

www.facebook.com

Kk

 

[BarnBoy]

Hello all!
Sorry for a lack of any updates. I suspect I was rather disappointed with the Okoman pack I decided to buy a bunch of battery welding and testing equipment intent on building my own packs. Doing cost analysis and with current GOOD 18650 cell availability and gouging, I decided to try a company that claimed realistic pack results using Samsung or Panasonic cells. But this time as advised by @kauaikit, I did two 7s5p packs! I did a lot of discussion via ePay and email with this provider and had them customer with an XT60 connector. Well, they arrived today and I have them on the chargers. Both chargers measured 2A (don’t get hot like Okoman!) and packs came in at 74%. So if they charge in >2 hours, each pack is 16Ah as advertised. But I do have load tests before I ride. Not going to have a wife rescue me again….

Oh- as far as the Okoman, well ePay forced seller to provide a shipping label. Would have cost more than the pack. Eventually seller had to refund money for an item that was not as advertised. The process is painful but you should feel save buying battery packs on ePay…. (Waiting for next green waste day to rid myself of the Okoman! May take it apart first…)


Nice tight fit!!!!

Stay tuned- more fun to come!
-BB

 

[kauaikit]

Nice......and with those two 7s5p packs, range should not be an issue, and the savings for being out for a few hours with the wind in your hair will be "yuge" from your court ordered therapy sessions!

A couple of days ago I took out my mostly stock '00 EVG SX ebike, with an upgraded 46t front chainring/11t-28t freewheel/12s4p Tesla mdl 3 21700 celled battery pack (18.8ah) in the original battery box, for a quick cardio run (6mi uphill & 6 mi back). Noisy.

Batt. @ 50.4v
End @ 46.1
----------------
Used 4.3v

Cateye:

Dist. @ 11.80 mi
TSpd@ 27.5 mph level spd @ 23.5 mph
Time @ 32:36 min.
Ave @ 21.7 mph

Then today I took out one of my '05 Tidalforce ebikes, for a bit longer cardio ride up hill 6 mi, bike trail, bike lane, and then back. Absolute dead silent sine-wave internal hub controller.

Batt. @ 45.5v (11s4p - 18.8ah) on rear rack, and a 11s3p (14.1ah) in handbar bag for a 11s7p 32.9ah 21700 celled battery!
End @ 41.4v
----------------
Used 4.1v
Cateye:

Dist. @ 14.62 mi
ODO @ 777.10 mil
TSpd @ 38.5 mph
Time @ 40:15 min.
Ave. @ 21.8 mph

So much fun, just to get out and ride.

 

[BarnBoy]

Well I started a load test on the packs just after the packs charged before dinner. Packs took about an hour longer to charge than theory as charger current reduces near charge max. Well my wife woke me at 2am (53%) so I stopped testing and restarted after a nice nap in bed. I could have just left it run. These buggers gave 15Ah per pack or 30Ah combined (770Wh logged for 100% to 10%).


The chart is below, but I can definitely recommend the Laudation battery packs on ePay or direct via www.laudation.cn

Now time for some long rides!!!
-BB

 

[BarnBoy]

And for anyone considering an Okoman pack after the charts above, then the photos below should convince you otherwise. Ties are very thin 8mm and magnetic (plated steel). Note the lack of positive terminal insulators. What else can you spot wrong…..
-BB

 

[kauaikit]

Well.....get those spokes on, and rim tuned, as you have people on this forum waiting for an update after your FOUR hour ride with a 30ah battery pack!

I see you are @ 93% ROC (28.3v), playing it safe?

Oh, personally I use the female XT-90s (spark arrester) for discharge & a male XT-90 in the battery box, and a XT-60 for the charger on my battery packs (small hole drilled in lid). I forget the capacitor voltage (60v-spark arrester?) in the 24v ebike battery boxes. You should be good.

RIDE!

 

[BarnBoy]

LMAO- The 93% photo above was while charging the first time for load testing.

Cap in the EVG battery box is 47mF and 35V rated. Should be good…

Oh- wheel was fixed a bit ago and I have been riding with the -pack but limited if wind or hills. I don’t think I have limits anymore; except maybe my arse!

Have posted the rides/routes and photos in the ‘21 Show and Tell forums…. (Sorry!)
-BB

 

[BarnBoy]

Hi folks!
First THANK YOU for following this project; it has been fun. But 44miles and still lots of room to go has me ready to close this chapter in the BB EVG project. I believe all of my goals for less weight, approx same battery cost and MORE MILES have all been accomplished. The two Laudation 7s5p packs are AWESOME!!!

I have added a water bottle cage pair off the stem and despite the LOW COST, got a GUB phone holder. The thing is easy to remove and tighten the phone in a simple screw stage without a special case. The Cranberry girl is about as perfect as she can be. Well maybe some Tranus tires so no more flats….
-BB

PS may post one more if I hit 100 miles or km…

 

[BarnBoy]

Oh! I completely forgot to mention I purchased a small 18650 cell tester. All x30 cells in the Okoman 6s5p measured between 1070mAh and 1205mAh. Thus driving the nail in the coffin for this pack proving no how, no way is it 28Ah as advertised but really <6Ah as I measured. And once the cell wrapper was removed, the cells are all actually laser etched with 1200mAh… (ePay seller is still telling me they are 5600mAh cells strictly regulated by China….despite the photos below)

Since nickel and steel are both magnetic, I tossed the Okoman tie strips in water. In less than a day; rust. So crappy plated steel….

If you need a good pack, go Laudation. Stay far away from Okoman, NaiLiTe or any other unrealistic Ah pack….
-BB

 

[Art Deco]

it's nice to see a well documented project completed and working.

 

[kauaikit]

Hi folks!
First THANK YOU for following this project; it has been fun. But 44miles and still lots of room to go has me ready to close this chapter in the BB EVG project. I believe all of my goals for less weight, approx same battery cost and MORE MILES have all been accomplished. The two Laudation 7s5p packs are AWESOME!!!

I have added a water bottle cage pair off the stem and despite the LOW COST, got a GUB phone holder. The thing is easy to remove and tighten the phone in a simple screw stage without a special case. The Cranberry girl is about as perfect as she can be. Well maybe some Tranus tires so no more flats….
-BB

PS may post one more if I hit 100 miles or km…

View attachment 91592

Hey BB
.....why is your power level on E instead on ALWAYS on P......push to the LEFT, to the left!?!

 

[BarnBoy]

LMFAO - thanks @kauaikit think I forgot all about that button. On the 6s5p, was no difference. Will advise!!!
-BB

 

[Shaunpro3]

UPDATE!
Thank you for the positive encouragement! I really expected to talk to a wall....

Well something happened and the 6s5p packs I thought I bought yesterday appear to contain unobtainium as the order was not accepted. So off to eBay as I didn’t like the wheel chair packs from Alibaba. Unfortunately I couldn’t find two of the same Ah spec packs so got a 28Ah Okoman with 2A charger and 3 year warranty for $115.30 and a 33Ah NaiLiTe with 2A charger for $107.61. Thus <$215 for batteries and chargers at 61Ah (1.46kWh).

The theoretical max current draw per series cell is practically nothing (2A) and I expect it is actually much less. If I had to do this again, I would consider making my own pack with higher capacity cells and a 6s5p battery build kit & BMS ($23 each) and a bulk pack of 9900mAh cells (<<$100 total). That would have made a 99Ah (2.37kWh) pack! Another Rabbit Hole, another day.... (don’t have @greeno tools!)

With the SLA packs I would start by getting almost 20 miles on a charge. I’m guessing/hoping my new packs will give me almost 100 miles per charge on the Cranberry Girl. Too bad the charge time is going to be 17 hours!

As of now, I’m going to use a bridge rectifier (I have them!) to isolate the two batteries from each other and use the diodes to balance the loads from the two packs. The diode drop will also give a bit safer EVG battery monitor as the actual battery voltage will be higher. I’m also looking at another option from @pushkar that might help in this project.... (TBD!)

Stay tuned!!!
-BB

You sound very educated and maybe able to help me which might possibly help yourself , helping me

So,
I have a EBIKE kit, 48v 1000w and trying to for 1 thing to extend my range and the speed I traveled as sure ya know, the faster ya go, the shorter distance able to reach.

So,
I recently learned of and bought a 48v DC PMA ( permanent magnet alternator ) and dreamed how wonderful it could be...

At 1st was dreaming of running my bike off the PMA w no batteries.
Then woke up a bit and determined that if could just keep my batt.s charged better , enabling greater range and better speeds I would be so happy...

I am now seeing it's not so easy !
So to not overcharge my batt.s , I got a charge controller and relay that are set to 55v low and 57.6v high.
I just got batt.s fully charged and I tested this morning going about 17 mph only to find I wasn't able to get as far as usual !
So charged batt s again and un hooked the controller & relay running PMA directly to batt.s .....as while riding I watched my voltage meter and noticed I didn't go fast enough to produce but about 48 - 50 volts ...so trying to do better I only went about 12 mph on way back,. Did make it home and still had some power left...

Not sure if ya know of these pma yet, I sure hope so..
I was wondering of relay wiring, passive or active, rather running the hot or neg. From pma to the relay,
My pma is a super core DC 2 terminal unit at 1800 amps max. And when used and has a load, the pma becomes harder to turn.

So, I am guessing my 1000w bike uses more power than can be made going the speeds I'm able to travel. Guessing.

If you have any suggestions or referrals I'm so greatful !
And today I thought of a diff. Way that may work better.
Instead of trying to reach power needed to charge my batt s with the pma,
Why not only worry of producing 12 strong volts, hook up a 12v inverter and run the household charger used each day..?

Guessing that prob. Won't work for reasons not considered...?

Again I Thank You !

Shaunpro3