Are battery packs and charger system like good and bad neighbors (cells) randomly huddled together in cold weather around a fire (charger) ?

BikeMike

Active Member
Foul weather (25F - 45F temperatures, NW wind 15 - 25mph) battery performance is my primary concern. I vaguely understand this subject. I will journal information as my understanding grows.

The question I hope we can converge on an to answer, is:
  • What makes for a good or poor performing foul weather battery pack, charger and battery management system.
    • Rack mounted can be an enclosed, heated unit that is protected from direct wind.
    • Large capacity. Optimal number of cells and series/parallel configuration?
    • Charging process information easily accessed and battery health graphically presented.
  • What is missing from existing systems that make them unreliable in foul weather, e.g., redundancy, chemistry, heater, fairing, etc...
    • Is design appropriate?
  • What role does the motor controller play, e.g., unsuitable power assistance levels for foul weather.
    • Might eMTB power assist adapt better to foul weather?

The starting points:

  1. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures
  2. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_803a_cell_mismatch_balancing
  3. * https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
  4. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/battery_calibration
  5. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/archive/the_smart_battery
  6. Smart battery fuel gauges: http://www.ti.com/download/aap/pdf/batt_mgmt_3q00.pdf
  7. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/battery_test_equipment
  8. https://batteryuniversity.com/index..._604_how_to_process_data_from_a_smart_battery

This subject depresses me. My hope was to use an electric bike in nasty Denver weather. November through March are the months most likely to have highest winds and lowest temperatures. I escape the harsh conditions by seeking shelter in low-lying bike paths. I really do not like these paths because they are slow. Too many dog-walking pedestrians who take up the entire bike path give-or-take 50 feet of extendable dog leash lines. Much less what I would like to do to the super aggressive dogs and comatose owners.

The last thing I want to do is get tangled in those lazy leash lines.

I will incrementally expand on this topic. I hope I have not reached a dead end in my search for an eBike. Bosch does not seem to advocate using their batteries below 50F. I am looking for a "foul-weather" bike. eBikes do not seem to be the foul-weather solution that I seek.

Glossary from Battery University:
  • Cell reversal - Since the cells in a battery pack can never be perfectly matched, a negative voltage potential can occur across a weaker cell in a multi-cell pack if the discharge is allowed to continue beyond a safe cut-off point.
    • Going empty first causes their strong brothers to overrun their feeble sibling to the point where a high load can push the weak cell into reverse polarity.
  • Recharge cycling - will not significantly improve the capacity of the low-end cell, and the buyer should be aware of differences in capacity and quality, which often translate into life expectancy.
  • Cell matching - according to capacity is important, especially for industrial batteries, and no perfect match is possible.
  • Capacity tolerance - between cells in an industrial battery should be +/– 2.5 percent. High-voltage packs designed for heavy loads and a wide temperature range should reduce the capacity tolerance further. There is a strong correlation between cell balance and longevity.
  • Passive balancing bleeds high-voltage cells on a resistor during charge in the 70–80 percent SoC curve;
  • Active balancing shuttles the extra charge from higher-voltage cells during discharge to those with a lower voltage.
  • Protection circuit - assures that serially connected cells do not exceed 4.25V/cell (most Li-ion) on charge and that disconnect when the weakest cell drops to 2.80V/cell or lower.
    • The discharge disconnect prevents the stronger cells from pushing the depleted cell into reverse polarity
  • Equalizing charge - a charge on top of a charge that brings all cells to full-charge saturation.
  • Depth of Discharge - (DoD) determines the cycle count of the battery. The smaller the discharge (low DoD), the longer the battery will last.
  • Battery analyzers serve as a valuable tool to calibrate a smart battery. An analyzer fully charges the battery and then applies a controlled discharge that provides the all-important capacity readings of the chemical battery. This discharge measurement is a truer reading than what coulomb counting provides by capturing past discharge events of the digital battery.
  • impedance tracking - This is a self-learning algorithm that reduces or eliminates the need to calibrate. If calibration is required, however, several cycles instead of only one may be needed to achieve the same result as with a standard system.
  • Max Error - The accuracy between the chemical and digital battery is measured by the Max Error.
  • Full charge capacity (FCC), coulomb count that is hidden in the table among tons of other information. FCC can be used with reasonable accuracy to estimate battery SoH without applying a full discharge cycle to measure capacity.
  • SMBus - is the most complete of all systems. It represents a large effort from the electronics industry to standardize on one communications protocol and one set of data. The Duracell/Intel SBS, which is in use today, was standardized in 1993.
 
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There will need to be some adaptation on your side; first and foremost, storing the battery indoors while at work or home or stopping anywhere for very long to help keep the battery temperature as close to room temp as possible. That will help any Li battery function better in colder temps. Accept that the range is going to be impacted and plan for that. The typical Li battery chemistry is not designed for cold weather although there are a couple of chemistries that are but no one fabricates ebike batteries that way; not really practical.

Find or make some type of battery 'blanket', a sleeve designed to fit around the battery pack on the frame to help keep it warm in the winter. Most that I've heard of are made out of Neoprene with velcro which helps cut the wind and insulate the battery. I've got to go do my research to remind myself what those products were and I suggest you search our site for some of that. A lot are simple homemade but there may be commercially manufactured ones at this point. Again, need to do a bit more research on this.

Funny you should create this thread today; I've seen a couple of pre-winter posts here and have been wondering if the OP's are like me, stuck in 100 degree temps wondering when it will be cooler :D

I do suggest that you talk with the owner of SmallPlanetEbikes, Tom, or some of his team that are serious winter riders. They have 2 stores in Colorado, one in Denver and one in the Boulder/Longmont areas. There are other Denver area ebike shops that will have experienced winter ebike riders that will be a valuable resource for you.
 
There will need to be some adaptation on your side; first and foremost, storing the battery indoors while at work or home or stopping anywhere for very long to help keep the battery temperature as close to room temp as possible. That will help any Li battery function better in colder temps. Accept that the range is going to be impacted and plan for that. The typical Li battery chemistry is not designed for cold weather although there are a couple of chemistries that are but no one fabricates ebike batteries that way; not really practical.

Find or make some type of battery 'blanket', a sleeve designed to fit around the battery pack on the frame to help keep it warm in the winter. Most that I've heard of are made out of Neoprene with velcro which helps cut the wind and insulate the battery. I've got to go do my research to remind myself what those products were and I suggest you search our site for some of that. A lot are simple homemade but there may be commercially manufactured ones at this point. Again, need to do a bit more research on this.

Funny you should create this thread today; I've seen a couple of pre-winter posts here and have been wondering if the OP's are like me, stuck in 100 degree temps wondering when it will be cooler :D

I do suggest that you talk with the owner of SmallPlanetEbikes, Tom, or some of his team that are serious winter riders. They have 2 stores in Colorado, one in Denver and one in the Boulder/Longmont areas. There are other Denver area ebike shops that will have experienced winter ebike riders that will be a valuable resource for you.

Here's a truly professional thread to start with:

https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/winter-battery-cover-flir-one-measurements.3457/

I think you might be thinking of this line of product:


https://www.rosebikes.com/bike-accessories/e-bike-accessories/protection
 
There will need to be some adaptation on your side; first and foremost, storing the battery indoors while at work or home or stopping anywhere for very long to help keep the battery temperature as close to room temp as possible. That will help any Li battery function better in colder temps. Accept that the range is going to be impacted and plan for that. The typical Li battery chemistry is not designed for cold weather although there are a couple of chemistries that are but no one fabricates ebike batteries that way; not really practical.

Find or make some type of battery 'blanket', a sleeve designed to fit around the battery pack on the frame to help keep it warm in the winter. Most that I've heard of are made out of Neoprene with velcro which helps cut the wind and insulate the battery. I've got to go do my research to remind myself what those products were and I suggest you search our site for some of that. A lot are simple homemade but there may be commercially manufactured ones at this point. Again, need to do a bit more research on this.

Funny you should create this thread today; I've seen a couple of pre-winter posts here and have been wondering if the OP's are like me, stuck in 100 degree temps wondering when it will be cooler :D

I do suggest that you talk with the owner of SmallPlanetEbikes, Tom, or some of his team that are serious winter riders. They have 2 stores in Colorado, one in Denver and one in the Boulder/Longmont areas. There are other Denver area ebike shops that will have experienced winter ebike riders that will be a valuable resource for you.
I am pretty set on a 2019 Trek Powerfly 5. I am open to good advice. The problem fundamentally has to do with electrolytes. Liquid responds to freezing temperatures by expanding and inducing electrical resistance.

I am just looking for a reasonable solution or to avoid bad solutions. seems like i am swimming againt the current, based on fundamental science.
 
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I think the downtube needs a heater. Whether a downtube heater is practical is an engineering question, that i am unqualified to answer. Some cars have engine heaters. I doubt motorcycles or scooters have the equivalent. My father used to keep the engine heated in frigid conditions.
 
Although these tactics won't help a hardened outdoorsman camping in the wilderness, they should work to improve cold weather battery performance for an occasional winter rider like myself.

I anticipated the possibility of winter riding when I bought my Pedego. I purchased the high capacity 15 ah battery which, with the type of riding I do, gives me a range of 40 to 50 miles. A typical outing for me is around 30 miles (perhaps shorter in colder temps) so I can afford a 25 - 30% loss of capacity.
I plan to charge and store the battery indoors or in a heated vehicle until starting a ride. It takes the battery some period of time to reach ambient temperature and this time is extended a bit by the internal heat generated by discharge.
If these measures aren't enough, the rectangular shape of the Pedego battery & rack assembly is easily wrapped with insulation material if necessary.

Again, these ideas won't work for everyone but they were a consideration for me when e-bike shopping.
 
Although these tactics won't help a hardened outdoorsman camping in the wilderness, they should work to improve cold weather battery performance for an occasional winter rider like myself.

I anticipated the possibility of winter riding when I bought my Pedego. I purchased the high capacity 15 ah battery which, with the type of riding I do, gives me a range of 40 to 50 miles. A typical outing for me is around 30 miles (perhaps shorter in colder temps) so I can afford a 25 - 30% loss of capacity.
I plan to charge and store the battery indoors or in a heated vehicle until starting a ride. It takes the battery some period of time to reach ambient temperature and this time is extended a bit by the internal heat generated by discharge.
If these measures aren't enough, the rectangular shape of the Pedego battery & rack assembly is easily wrapped with insulation material if necessary.

Again, these ideas won't work for everyone but they were a consideration for me when e-bike shopping.

I think one could have a little more certainty for the limitations with more information about the batteries in the pack and the Battery Management System. I think cold weather is an opportunity for Bosch to distinguish itself from competitors. Simply display some diagnostic information about all cells in the pack on the Nyon display.

I think i might be able to gain insight from snowmobile technology, or something similar.

Given my limitied knowledge, this means postponing the purchase until i can test ride the bike on a cold days. I wonder if a sunny or cloudy day makes a difference? I often ride on sunny 25F days, rarely on cloudy ones. The 15-25 NW winds may also greatly affect battery temperature.

There must be a solution. I discussed the matter with two bike shops yesterday. Neither had encountered this question before.
 
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I sent the following email to [email protected] <[email protected]>, head of Bosch ebikes for North America.

Good morning,



I postponed my plans to buy an ebike until I better understand how Bosch systems work in 15F to 25F temperatures. Bosch categorizes sub 50F degree temperatures as "difficult conditions".



The main reason for buying an ebike is for "foul-weather", or the Denver conditions from November through March. This period seems to be the weather conditions that are most unsuited for an ebike. I sold my car because I only logged 1,000 miles per year. I get around Denver so quickly and easily on a conventional bicycle, year round, that I do not need a car. I do need a foul-weather eBike to replace my car.



I think this is an opportunity for Bosch to gain an advantage over the competition by displaying the health of all battery pack cells on the Nyon display. I would simply like the BMS to display when it is unadvisable to ride. Does sun, clouds or winds play a role in 15F to 25F temperatures?



Does the Bosch Dual Battery system have any advantage over carrying a second battery in the rack carrier?



Does the Bosch PowerTube 500 wh, have any advantages over a typical frame mounted battery?



Does the bike frame need some type of heater? I am considering the 2019 Trek Powerfly 5, with about $2000 in accessories for winter riding.



https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...-hardtail/powerfly-5/p/23180/?colorCode=black



The issues is the following articles are what needs to be understood. The issues simply may be physical limitations of any electrolyte chemical solution.



I do understand that a neoprene cover will provide some insulation. It is unclear to me what thickness I need for different Denver conditions.



https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures



https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_803a_cell_mismatch_balancing


Thanks,

Mike
 
Although these tactics won't help a hardened outdoorsman camping in the wilderness, they should work to improve cold weather battery performance for an occasional winter rider like myself.

I anticipated the possibility of winter riding when I bought my Pedego. I purchased the high capacity 15 ah battery which, with the type of riding I do, gives me a range of 40 to 50 miles. A typical outing for me is around 30 miles (perhaps shorter in colder temps) so I can afford a 25 - 30% loss of capacity.
I plan to charge and store the battery indoors or in a heated vehicle until starting a ride. It takes the battery some period of time to reach ambient temperature and this time is extended a bit by the internal heat generated by discharge.
If these measures aren't enough, the rectangular shape of the Pedego battery & rack assembly is easily wrapped with insulation material if necessary.

Again, these ideas won't work for everyone but they were a consideration for me when e-bike shopping.
You are on the right track. The next question becomes, what is the appropriate assistance level to select in cold temperatures. The answer is unclear to me, but certainly not Turbo mode, or high voltage. Probably, the middle level? The answer might be inferred from these links.

  1. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures
  2. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_803a_cell_mismatch_balancing
  3. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
  4. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/battery_calibration
  5. https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/archive/the_smart_battery
 
I wonder if ebike makers might come up with weather-related climate control systems for batteries sold in very hot or very cold places? It could be some kind of heating or cooling pack, designed into the bike (perhaps as an optional add-on for customers who have climate-related needs), situated alongside/around the battery, and operated with a thermostat. Of course, it would reduce range by drawing on the battery, but if it would substantially increase battery life it might be worth it.
 
Although these tactics won't help a hardened outdoorsman camping in the wilderness, they should work to improve cold weather battery performance for an occasional winter rider like myself.

I anticipated the possibility of winter riding when I bought my Pedego. I purchased the high capacity 15 ah battery which, with the type of riding I do, gives me a range of 40 to 50 miles. A typical outing for me is around 30 miles (perhaps shorter in colder temps) so I can afford a 25 - 30% loss of capacity.
I plan to charge and store the battery indoors or in a heated vehicle until starting a ride. It takes the battery some period of time to reach ambient temperature and this time is extended a bit by the internal heat generated by discharge.
If these measures aren't enough, the rectangular shape of the Pedego battery & rack assembly is easily wrapped with insulation material if necessary.

Again, these ideas won't work for everyone but they were a consideration for me when e-bike shopping.

The battery is only part of the solution. The battery needs to be periodically calibrated with the charger. Is your battery/charger a "Smart" system? Intel and Duracell have established the SMBus standard.
 
I wonder if ebike makers might come up with weather-related climate control systems for batteries sold in very hot or very cold places? It could be some kind of heating or cooling pack, designed into the bike (perhaps as an optional add-on for customers who have climate-related needs), situated alongside/around the battery, and operated with a thermostat. Of course, it would reduce range by drawing on the battery, but if it would substantially increase battery life it might be worth it.

You are on to something. Fuel gauges, or Texas Instruments chips, are already available. See the links in the first post. The charger is a part of the solution.
 
I wonder if ebike makers might come up with weather-related climate control systems for batteries sold in very hot or very cold places? It could be some kind of heating or cooling pack, designed into the bike (perhaps as an optional add-on for customers who have climate-related needs), situated alongside/around the battery, and operated with a thermostat. Of course, it would reduce range by drawing on the battery, but if it would substantially increase battery life it might be worth it.

I think part of the solution already exists, but is not exploited: assistance levels. Rather than power assistance, i need "cold weather assistance". Program the assistance levels for cold weather temperatures.

I picked up my bike from the shop yesterday. I played with the watt meter on display, which I believe was broken. I could easily generate 800 watts! I stopped because i thought the product was a toy. Even if can generate half that amount, 400 watts, i do not need power assistance.

I need the ability to repurpose the power assist levels for cold weather to prevent the battery from dropping voltage. A voltage drop cuts power to the motor. Consequently, i am stuck in the cold.
 
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I built my bike using a powered rear wheel kit and store the controller and batteries in a triangle bag. batteries will be kept warm from the waste heat generated by the controller. Any way to use that heat to warm the down tube?

If the downtubes are aluminum they need to be insulated, think a cozy on a cold beer can. Going 20 mph that tube will get COLD and that cold will go directly to the batteries. No heater can overcome the amount of cold that's transferred through an aluminum frame.
 
I built my bike using a powered rear wheel kit and store the controller and batteries in a triangle bag. batteries will be kept warm from the waste heat generated by the controller. Any way to use that heat to warm the down tube?

If the downtubes are aluminum they need to be insulated, think a cozy on a cold beer can. Going 20 mph that tube will get COLD and that cold will go directly to the batteries. No heater can overcome the amount of cold that's transferred through an aluminum frame.

Now we are making progress. Perhaps, a carbon frame is a better solution for me?

I think you could help answer the question, if you happen to have access to a FLIR camera. An excellent, professional level discussion, starts here:

https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/winter-battery-cover-flir-one-measurements.3457/
 
When it g
I sent the following email to [email protected] <[email protected]>, head of Bosch ebikes for North America.

Good morning,



I postponed my plans to buy an ebike until I better understand how Bosch systems work in 15F to 25F temperatures. Bosch categorizes sub 50F degree temperatures as "difficult conditions".



The main reason for buying an ebike is for "foul-weather", or the Denver conditions from November through March. This period seems to be the weather conditions that are most unsuited for an ebike. I sold my car because I only logged 1,000 miles per year. I get around Denver so quickly and easily on a conventional bicycle, year round, that I do not need a car. I do need a foul-weather eBike to replace my car.



I think this is an opportunity for Bosch to gain an advantage over the competition by displaying the health of all battery pack cells on the Nyon display. I would simply like the BMS to display when it is unadvisable to ride. Does sun, clouds or winds play a role in 15F to 25F temperatures?



Does the Bosch Dual Battery system have any advantage over carrying a second battery in the rack carrier?



Does the Bosch PowerTube 500 wh, have any advantages over a typical frame mounted battery?



Does the bike frame need some type of heater? I am considering the 2019 Trek Powerfly 5, with about $2000 in accessories for winter riding.



https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...-hardtail/powerfly-5/p/23180/?colorCode=black



The issues is the following articles are what needs to be understood. The issues simply may be physical limitations of any electrolyte chemical solution.



I do understand that a neoprene cover will provide some insulation. It is unclear to me what thickness I need for different Denver conditions.



https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures



https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_803a_cell_mismatch_balancing


Thanks,

Mike
Insulate the downtube. That is the best thing you can do to keep the tube batteries warm. Store it inside.

Crazy idea. If it's really cold make a heating pad out of rice that fits the frame, heat in a microwave, put around the tube and use an elastic bandage to hold it in place next to the frame. You can make one to keep you warm as well!
 
Although these tactics won't help a hardened outdoorsman camping in the wilderness, they should work to improve cold weather battery performance for an occasional winter rider like myself.

I anticipated the possibility of winter riding when I bought my Pedego. I purchased the high capacity 15 ah battery which, with the type of riding I do, gives me a range of 40 to 50 miles. A typical outing for me is around 30 miles (perhaps shorter in colder temps) so I can afford a 25 - 30% loss of capacity.
I plan to charge and store the battery indoors or in a heated vehicle until starting a ride. It takes the battery some period of time to reach ambient temperature and this time is extended a bit by the internal heat generated by discharge.
If these measures aren't enough, the rectangular shape of the Pedego battery & rack assembly is easily wrapped with insulation material if necessary.

Again, these ideas won't work for everyone but they were a consideration for me when e-bike shopping.


If these measures prove unsatisfactory, carrying a second battery is always an option.
 
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