Anything on Canbus protocol yet

[MartsEbike]

Not sure what you are saying? You think Watt Wagons shouldn't pay USA customs duty when importing these controllers from Germany to the USA? They should have faked UL certification? Also, I'm not sure you are truly comparing apples to apples when comparing prices.

Now you're acting obtuse Tom. No, I'm not saying that... I'm saying the main thing people care about is price. All of these other concerns are for the supplier, not the customer.

I'm all ears if you think WW is adding extra value in comparison to Innotrace themselves, but I don't see it. There isn't any mention of their website.

Given all the comments about the standard controller I'm surprised more people aren't using the X1 controller, and I feel a lot of that is because of price. We all know the promises of the X1 controller but its hard to gauge what exactly it is your buying... and with little chance of "try before you buy", spending around $1000 for the X1 controller on a bike probably worth $3-5k feels a bit strong to me.

 

[MartsEbike]

As far as smooth tune vs. Archon X1, it's a fair question, I would actually go back and test as I still have my original motor, but too much of a pain to swap it out. I'm sure Innotrace or Watt Wagons has or can run some tests vs. smooth tune. Other than the efficiency gains, the biggest surprise for me was not fighting the modulation when riding. It doesn't jump out at you until you aren't constantly fighting it.

Smooth tune doesn't dispense with the X1 controller, it tames the beast but it still has some shortfalls, the X1 controller will be the better option.

 

[TomD]

I wasn't being obtuse. I really wasn't sure what you were saying when you said "Nobody cares about import duties or compliance issues". I know it's fairly common in Europe to routinely evade customs and duties. And similarly for compliance issues, sounded like you were saying they should put fake UL stickers on the motors. Thanks for clarifying it was simply price. And you're right, some are happy to buy e.g. pirated Watt Wagon frames from Denfu without any conscience, price dominates.

Also, while you may not think Watt Wagons is adding any value, there would be far fewer users in North America able to benefit from the innotrace controller without Watt Wagons stepping up to the plate and making UL certification happen. Like I said, I'm happy to support small business like them, which is rare for me and I'm as frugal as they come.

 

[MartsEbike]

I'm starting to wonder about your impression of Europe Tom. This is one of the most regulated places in the world - we even have to pay for a TV licence in the UK .

 

[TomD]

Just saying what I see on the various forums e.g. users buying FREY bikes and going thru loopholes to evade customs. I'm not saying it isn't regulated.

 

[MartsEbike]

Just saying what I see on the various forums e.g. users buying FREY bikes and going thru loopholes to evade customs. I'm not saying it isn't regulated.

Nobody is using loopholes to evade customs as such, but its well known that Customs can't check every parcel coming into the country. Only something like 2-4% of all parcels are checked by Customs, so its regarded as unlucky to pay given the odds are in your favour. (Should note that most items are Delivered Duty Paid - so its not like taxes aren't paid)

That said, the worry for some was they didn't budget for Customs fees, and as such, being caught brought greater risk as they wouldn't have the ability to pay. Worst Case EU Anti-Dumping Fee's of around 82% meant Customs Fees could be thousands of pounds extra, so the threat was real, but luckily, most ended up paying just a few hundred in fees.

 

[ETinVT]

I'm in a unique position where I have both a CAN bus and UART ultra equipped bike. Can confirm the stock CAN bus is MUCH more power hungry in the stock settings than the UART. Eco 1 / CAN feels roughly equal to Sport / 3 UART. It also seems to take much longer to power down after you stop pedaling. I have a programming cable for the UART and have played with a good number of the alternatives floating around out there. I ordered the BESST tool in preparations for being able to tweak the CAN bus ultra when the time comes. I've seen at least one thread of alternate firmware being provided for CAN bus ultra settings: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ix-regarding-the-unprogrammable-canbus.44809/. I'm really hoping to get my hands on the stock firmware and at least one alternative to flash, any help locating such files would be GREATLY appreciated.

By the sounds of things on a couple of forums it looks like a good bit of progress is being made on the m500/m600 CAN bus front. Rumor has it these changes will also be applicable to the m620. I have yet to hear anyone sending programming codes to the Ultra CAN bus yet but I'm sure it's possible after reading up here: https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=110876.

Has anyone out there played around with CAN bus settings on the ultra yet? I'm itching to play around with it, just a matter of time until I have the files and cables...

 

[AHicks]

Watching for CANbus M620 news on ES pretty faithfully too. I haven't seen anything I would share, but agree there are some pretty smart guys messing with it constantly. I wouldn't mind having another M620 bike, but spoiled as I am with my current UART M620, bike #2 isn't happening until they get the CANbus mess straightened out.

 

[m@Robertson]

I think when V3 of the Cyc X1 comes out in May or June - followed soon after by the end of production for the current BBSHD and BBS02 - Bafang's dominance of the DIY market will be over. I don't see this CAN thing being resolved satisfactorily. In the automotive world, once the programming interface was hacked, the manufacturer introduced encryption. Once encryption was hacked, they went to rotating keys. After that it was phoning home. As I understand it a phone-home is already in place. I'll just say no to the arms race and move on.

 

[teskow]

I returned a beautiful bike because of the horrible power delivery of the CB system. It was not even possible to do a leisurely ride with out getting frustrated.

 

[ETinVT]

I returned a beautiful bike because of the horrible power delivery of the CB system. It was not even possible to do a leisurely ride with out getting frustrated.

That's terrible, sorry to hear that. All the more reason to keep pushing to crack these motors wide open again. In my personal opinion I love the motor itself for it's build quality and power. Fortunately most of my adventures require the punch the can bus programming delivers. I mostly use it for abusive off-road use, winter snow and beach riding. The first 500 miles I put on it were pure torture. I've already shredded a cassette/chain/derailleur and rear thru axle. The motor started getting loud about a week ago so I dropped it and opened it up for a peek. The original grease was nuked and the bearings on the primary gear were not in the best of shape. I cleaned out all the grease and repacked it with JD corn head while I await a new gear from green bike kit. Can honestly say it's night and day after the regrease. Going to hammer on it pretty hard while I await the new gear and see how the new grease holds up.

That being said, spring and summer riding are right around the corner and I'd love to tone down the overkill power that even eco 1 outputs. I have a narrower wheelset and tires coming which I know that power will be extreme overkill for.

 

[tomjasz]

I think when V3 of the Cyc X1 comes out in May or June - followed soon after by the end of production for the current BBSHD and BBS02 - Bafang's dominance of the DIY market will be over. I don't see this CAN thing being resolved satisfactorily. In the automotive world, once the programming interface was hacked, the manufacturer introduced encryption. Once encryption was hacked, they went to rotating keys. After that it was phoning home. As I understand it a phone-home is already in place. I'll just say no to the arms race and move on.

Several Chinese resellers are claiming Bafanged is not discontinuing. But I trust none of them. I had great fun with BBSxx series but there were so many nightmares as a reseller. Even the largest importers never broke through their iron curtain of s*it support. Since I don’t need mids I jumped on a couple of mac 10T at dealer price before paul Lynch dropped them. I really wouldn’t have moved away as I really like the series, but the announcement of proprietary systems frosted my cake.A couple of bike sellers that used BBSxx motors have made large orders. I’m glad I know longer support them. It would be a real struggle for me to sell and not tell. I Bafang acts out as they have in the past it won’t be to long before the parts stream dies out.

Donwe know how different the new series is internally? Another debacle like the move to “B” versions? And no parts for the HD and “B”?

If no one here has had hands on I’ll chat with the fellows that figured how to use current controllers, a great move but won’t they force the batteries? Will there be bare motors? Seems like the hack will put them on guard. Nuts.

 

[m@Robertson]

Donwe know how different the new series is internally? Another debacle like the move to “B” versions? And no parts for the HD and “B”?

If no one here has had hands on I’ll chat with the fellows that figured how to use current controllers, a great move but won’t they force the batteries? Will there be bare motors? Seems like the hack will put them on guard. Nuts.

Cap'n Codswallop has done a deep dive inside the motors and they are identical internally except for the bolt pattern on the outside holding the motor shell together. And the controller of course. Swapping an old school controller into an M625 has already been tried with success. You have to do some drilling to deal with the new bolt pattern.

So literally the only thing they did was alter the platform to kill the ability to customize. It was even theorized that the change in bolt pattern was to break the 3rd party motor covers for the aftermarket controllers, as well as prevent an easy controller swap from the existing HD. that change serves no other functional purpose.

This commitment from Bafang to kill the customization of their motors is why I don't think it makes any sense to pursue programming them. Whatever solution is landed on will be broken fairly easily with a revision. So any solution will only be for that particular production run. Like I said... an arms race. Seen this before and its a losing battle for the little guy. Cyc on the other hand is making a point of catering to the build community. reportedly their next controller (they are replacing the problematic BAC's they are using now) will be VESC-based. Thats an open source project.

 

[tomjasz]

You have to do some drilling to deal with the new bolt pattern.

Yes, I think I posted the video. I’m glad to not need another mid. I just don’t care for the cyc. But I’m a flat lander and a gimp.

 

[ETinVT]

One step closer to playing around with canbus settings...

 

[tomjasz]

Good luck!

 

[mxer]

One step closer to playing around with canbus settings...

It's tough cookie to crack!! many who have tried have failed. Genuinely hope we have a breakthrough soon

 

[Robanco]

I have no doubt the Archon X1 is fantastic and greatly improves the Ultra. However, a great many of the most common complaints of the stock Ultra programming have absolutely nothing to do with its sampling frequency. For years these things could be fixed (tuned to taste), greatly improving the feel of the motor for those who wanted to put forth the effort--basically for free. So while the X1 is a solution and probably a very nice upgrade, don't be surprised if somebody who just wants to fix something he thought he could fix for free is still quite angry after being told the X1 is the only solution he should bother with.

Bafang Ultra M620 question . has anyone / Dealer found a way to program the CANbus controller ? Help please.

 

[AHicks]

Bafang Ultra M620 question . has anyone / Dealer found a way to program the CANbus controller ? Help please.

From a practical standpoint, the answer is still a very solid no......

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Cap'n Codswallop has done a deep dive inside the motors and they are identical internally except for the bolt pattern on the outside holding the motor shell together. And the controller of course. Swapping an old school controller into an M625 has already been tried with success. You have to do some drilling to deal with the new bolt pattern.

So literally the only thing they did was alter the platform to kill the ability to customize. It was even theorized that the change in bolt pattern was to break the 3rd party motor covers for the aftermarket controllers, as well as prevent an easy controller swap from the existing HD. that change serves no other functional purpose.

This commitment from Bafang to kill the customization of their motors is why I don't think it makes any sense to pursue programming them. Whatever solution is landed on will be broken fairly easily with a revision. So any solution will only be for that particular production run. Like I said... an arms race. Seen this before and its a losing battle for the little guy. Cyc on the other hand is making a point of catering to the build community. reportedly their next controller (they are replacing the problematic BAC's they are using now) will be VESC-based. Thats an open source project.

Don’t want to like, but I think you are BangOn