Anything on Canbus protocol yet

[TomD]

I think a fairer characterization is for years people have been grasping at straws as opposed to greatly improving the feel of the motor. Can you make it better? Sure, but there's a limit to how smooth you can make it. Ridetoglide was talking about buying a UART motor, just saying better to invest that in a controller upgrade which will be a sure thing as opposed to pipe dream.

 

[AHicks]

I think a fairer characterization is for years people have been grasping at straws as opposed to greatly improving the feel of the motor. Can you make it better? Sure, but there's a limit to how smooth you can make it. The OP was talking about buying a UART motor, just saying better to invest that in a controller upgrade which will be a sure thing as opposed to pipe dream.

Realizing full well not all riding habits are the same, but if Bafang were delivering the Ultra CAN BUS motor with something as civilized as the "Smooth" programming (specifics seen starting about half way through this article: http://frey-bafang.patransformers.com/2020/10/09/bafang-ultra-programming/), my bet is they would not be receiving the degree of push back they are receiving now. It may not be everyone's favorite, but it deals with the majority of the issues most often complained about - the ones I hear about anyway. Point being, IMHO, that programming would be a good first step if we only get one shot at getting a motor done right.

More discussion regarding the "Smooth" programming:

Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

So recently I decided to scrap all of my original ideas, which all seemed to dead end, and try something completely new. I went back to all of the original settings, and when I test drove that, it reminded me how bad those setting really are. No point detailing, if you're reading this you likely...

electricbikereview.com

 

[TomD]

And if you read the end of the article...

There are some inherent non changeable issues, motor engagement on start and low cadence low power motor assist been inconsistent. Both of those issues are related to hard coded firmware and cannot be addressed in user setting menu.

And the following nugget which I am told is BS and fake news:

We are excited about Bafang’s upcoming update of the controller in 2021-2022 with major redesign of PCBA and firmware with focus of refinement to match Big Brand Euros.

 

[TForan]

Are the early Ultras that much different from the new ones ? I've had mine for 4 years and never once wanted to change anything , except the throttle , which I removed immediately .

 

[AHicks]

And if you read the end of the article...

And the following nugget which I am told is BS and fake news:

And if you had actually tried the "Smooth" setup after riding the original Bafang supplied setup, you'd know that's a non event - "inherent non changeable issues, motor engagement on start and low cadence low power motor assist been inconsistent". If those issues ARE actually still in play, they've been masked to the point they are no longer apparent to the rider. THIS rider anyway.....

Agreed on the "fake news". That's a fancy add marketing way of saying they are going to CAN BUS.

 

[AHicks]

Are the early Ultras that much different from the new ones ? I've had mine for 4 years and never once wanted to change anything , except the throttle , which I removed immediately .

I haven't ridden one, but based on what I've read, the complaints are very similar to my reaction when first swinging my leg over an Ultra I received last October....

 

[TomD]

And if you had actually tried the "Smooth" setup after riding the original Bafang supplied setup, you'd know that's a non event - "inherent non changeable issues, motor engagement on start and low cadence low power motor assist been inconsistent". If those issues ARE actually still in play, they've been masked to the point they are no longer apparent to the rider. THIS rider anyway.....

Agreed on the "fake news". That's a fancy add marketing way of saying they are going to CAN BUS.

Well, good to hear smooth tune is working for you. And I agree, I don't know why Bafang sends out their motors with such shitty programming, or for that matter why their dealers don't change it to something like smooth tune, unless they are concerned it might void warranty.

 

[MartsEbike]

I think the Watt Wagons offering is a tad expensive. Especially when you add all the extras you'd want - like software upgrades and a 2 year warranty.

The WW X1 is $799 for a 2300w version. Its $1,099.00 if you include the upgrades and warranty. This is before taxes and shipping too. That's too expensive. For me in the UK that would be £806 at exchange rates today. Innotrace is charging £368 for a 2500w controller. including taxes and firmware upgrades.

You can make the uart based motor perfectly usable, so I'm sceptical upgrading at such cost brings much added value. Buying from Innotrace appears the better deal.

 

[TForan]

I haven't ridden one, but based on what I've read, the complaints are very similar to my reaction when first swinging my leg over an Ultra I received last October....

Complaints with the early ones ?

 

[AHicks]

Well, good to hear smooth tune is working for you. And I agree, I don't know why Bafang sends out their motors with such shitty programming, or for that matter why their dealers don't change it to something like smooth tune, unless they are concerned it might void warranty.

Even though we were told the dealers would be able to make changes early on, I'm left wondering if there's really much of anything available to the dealers? There's nothing but a deafening silence (crickets) coming from some that were fairly outspoken regarding the UART based programming as late as last year. And I doubt seriously the CAN BUS was much of a surprise to them. It's coming has been common knowledge for months. If they could make changes, it would SEEM like, they'd be capitalizing on that ability to maintain sales. As it is, IMHO, they're going to be sitting on a bunch of unsold CAN BUS equipped bikes starting very soon. The UART programmability was a HUGE deal for many of us. -Al

Complaints with the early ones ?

Been beat to death already....

 

[TomD]

I think the Watt Wagons offering is a tad expensive. Especially when you add all the extras you'd want - like software upgrades and a 2 year warranty.

The WW X1 is $799 for a 2300w version. Its $1,099.00 if you include the upgrades and warranty. This is before taxes and shipping too. That's too expensive. For me in the UK that would be £806 at exchange rates today. Innotrace is charging £368 for a 2500w controller. including taxes and firmware upgrades.

You can make the uart based motor perfectly usable, so I'm sceptical upgrading at such cost brings much added value. Buying from Innotrace appears the better deal.

Moot point because you don't really have a choice who to buy from. Yes, it's more expensive in the US due to import duties, cost of UL certification, and Watt Wagons has a North America exclusive so can charge whatever they feel is an appropriate margin. They made the investment for UL certification. Prior to that that Innotrace was unwilling ship to the US. I don't have any problem supporting a small business like Watt Wagons, pushkar is not raking in the bucks, believe it or not.

 

[MartsEbike]

Moot point because you don't really have a choice who to buy from. Yes, it's more expensive in the US due to import duties, cost of UL certification, and Watt Wagons has a North America exclusive so can charge whatever they feel is an appropriate margin. They made the investment for UL certification. Prior to that that Innotrace was unwilling ship to the US. I don't have any problem supporting a small business like Watt Wagons, pushkar is not raking in the bucks, believe it or not.

Not a moot point...Nobody cares about import duties or compliance issues. I can guarantee you this is costing sales, and adding to that is frivolous charges for things like Software updates.

Innotrace might not ship to US, but with such a price difference, you can almost fly it yourself! Get a free vacation while your motor is sorted out!

 

[TForan]

Been beat to death already....

What has ? Complaints with early Ultras ? Sorry, I don't keep up with it.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I have no doubt the Archon X1 is fantastic and greatly improves the Ultra. However, a great many of the most common complaints of the stock Ultra programming have absolutely nothing to do with its sampling frequency. For years these things could be fixed (tuned to taste), greatly improving the feel of the motor for those who wanted to put forth the effort--basically for free. So while the X1 is a solution and probably a very nice upgrade, don't be surprised if somebody who just wants to fix something he thought he could fix for free is still quite angry after being told the X1 is the only solution he should bother with.

I had asked about a comparison between a properly tuned UART controller Ultra and the X1 and got the same negative defensive pushpack.
Yet all those that answered had upgraded to the X1 without attempting any programing of their UARTs before doing so.
I have no doubt that the X1 is more sophisticated and can do a good job of taming the edges of an Ultra all while providing nice color graphs of bench top testing in the process... But that doesn't answer the question of what's the difference in the real world.
I had asked the question as I know unequivocally that programming changes alone have made my BBS smoother and more efficient.
Again not saying that the X1 isn't an excellent controller or have real value... But a true comparison between the two has yet to be shown.

 

[Gionnirocket]

What has ? Complaints with early Ultras ? Sorry, I don't keep up with it.

The major complaint is that only 1 perfectly tuned, extremely quiet plastic geared Ultra was ever produced.

 

[Jon A]

Are the early Ultras that much different from the new ones ? I've had mine for 4 years and never once wanted to change anything , except the throttle , which I removed immediately .

I don't know if the tune has changed over the years, but some of the difference in opinions probably comes down to use/user desires. I think the stock programming on mine wouldn't have been bad for lots of road riding/commuting (acting much like a cadence sensor bike). But for my use/desires it wasn't very good. The throttle is another good example--I've found it to be an extremely useful tool in some nasty offroad conditions so being able to change how it operates is quite useful (it was way too touchy at low speeds and I've tamed that down a fair amount). But if you aren't using the throttle at all the stock programming of it naturally wouldn't bother you.

if Bafang were delivering the Ultra CAN BUS motor with something as civilized as the "Smooth" programming (specifics seen starting about half way through this article: http://frey-bafang.patransformers.com/2020/10/09/bafang-ultra-programming/), my bet is they would not be receiving the degree of push back they are receiving now.

I agree with that. My current tune is largely based on the Frey Smooth values shown there and it suits me well. I can use the higher power modes at low speeds with lots of control, but when I put the hammer down all the power of that mode is available--very dynamic. It allows me to pick a mode and leave it there the entire ride. Again, not what everybody would want but I think it would make a lot of people happy--especially for bikes aimed at offroad/mountainbiking type of use.

You can make the uart based motor perfectly usable, so I'm sceptical upgrading at such cost brings much added value. Buying from Innotrace appears the better deal.

And it shouldn't be overlooked that having a spare motor on the shelf is not without value for anybody who swaps his entire motor. It would offer peace of mind for people who ride in a lot of bad weather, lots of water crossings, etc. You'd have spare parts or could simply throw the other motor in if you toast your first. And by the time you need to do that, maybe people will have cracked the canbus code and it'll be programmable.

I had asked about a comparison between a properly tuned UART controller Ultra and the X1 and got the same negative defensive pushpack.
Yet all those that answered had upgraded to the X1 without attempting any programing of their UARTs before doing so.

I think you have a good point. Like I said, I'm sure the X1 is great...but my stock motor is pretty great right now as well. It's certainly not perfect, but my complaints of it now are pretty nit-picky.

 

[AHicks]

^^^ Nicely said. I agree completely on all points.

The only thing I would like to add is that my bike is not ridden hard or abused in any way. My HOPE is I'm able to service anything I break or wear out, rather than having to resort to a spare motor sitting on a shelf.

 

[TForan]

^^^ Nicely said. I agree completely on all points.

The only thing I would like to add is that my bike is not ridden hard or abused in any way. My HOPE is I'm able to service anything I break or wear out, rather than having to resort to a spare motor sitting on a shelf.

Not me. My poor bike. I often turn it up to 5, if I haven't downshifted properly. Of course I ride in 5 most of the time, anyway.

 

[TomD]

Not a moot point...Nobody cares about import duties or compliance issues. I can guarantee you this is costing sales, and adding to that is frivolous charges for things like Software updates.

Innotrace might not ship to US, but with such a price difference, you can almost fly it yourself! Get a free vacation while your motor is sorted out!

Not sure what you are saying? You think Watt Wagons shouldn't pay USA customs duty when importing these controllers from Germany to the USA? They should have faked UL certification? Also, I'm not sure you are truly comparing apples to apples when comparing prices.

 

[TomD]

As far as smooth tune vs. Archon X1, it's a fair question, I would actually go back and test as I still have my original motor, but too much of a pain to swap it out. I'm sure Innotrace or Watt Wagons has or can run some tests vs. smooth tune. Other than the efficiency gains, the biggest surprise for me was not fighting the modulation when riding. It doesn't jump out at you until you aren't constantly fighting it.