Another class needed?

[Timpo]

Okay so do you think we should add another ebike class?
Call it a Class 0, equivalent of European/Japanese class of 250W, 15mph?

Are Class 1 E-Bikes too Fast for Certain Trails? Some Think a Slower Class is Needed

With more than one type of electric mountain bike on the market today, some bikes might be more appropriate for certain trails than others.

www.singletracks.com

 

[pmcdonald]

I don't see the proposal going down well here but there's crazier ideas out there.

Yes, our 25 km/h limit is a tad draconian but the flip side is access to MUPs and MTB parks is a complete non-issue here in Australia. A minority chip their bikes for more speed, the majority live with the limit.

We don't have the freedoms of the various classes (it's 25km/h or go buy a motorbike that's subject to yearly safety checks), but the trade off is we also don't have the conflict and complex regulatory environment that comes with that tiered system. Vast swathes of the world get by with this simple system.

 

[6zfshdb]

Sure, 20 or 25 mph is too fast for many trails & MUPs but is 15 mph that much safer? I usually limit the speed of my class 2 bike to 12-15 mph on these paths and I'm constantly being passed by physically fit riders on conventional bikes.

Why further complicate the already unrealistic class system?

 

[Gordon71]

Are there any ebikes sold in the USA with a motor cutout at 15?

 

[jabberwocky]

As a longtime MTBer who owns a class 1 eMTB now, I'd lean towards not really necessary, though its not totally outlandish. I'm definitely faster on the class 1 than my normal bike (duh), but most of the speed increase happens in the 4mph-12mph range (i.e. climbing) where a lower speed cutoff probably isn't going to change much. On long flat trails I can see it maybe reducing conflict; cruising at cutoff isn't hard and 20mph is fast on flat singletrack. I don't think a new slower class is a realistic thing to expect though, everything seems pretty set in place now and largely seems to working fine.

From talking to trail liaisons in the area, most of the issues we've had in my area fall into two categories: people riding non-compliant bikes (electric dirt bikes like Sur-Rons) or ebike riders climbing trails that are generally considered directional (climbing stuff so steep that nobody has historically climbed it, surprising people doing fast DH runs). One is an enforcement and outreach issue. The other is probably an education issue.

 

[AHicks]

My vote- ban/trash can all of the classes and come up with something that makes much more sense.

Let's try to get out of this box we seem to be stuck in. It's should be clear to most, in the end, it's just too cumbersome to get the job done in a manner that makes any sense at all.....

Speed bumps on the MUP trails?

 

[jabberwocky]

My vote- ban/trash can all of the classes and come up with something that makes much more sense.

The issue is that MTB trails aren't currently going to accept faster ebikes or throttles; even class 1 can be a hard sell, which is a contributer to ebike access on singletrack still being very spotty. So either everyone needs to accept that the One True Class will be slower than what we have now or we need to largely give up on access to a lot of singletrack. The linked article is largely talking about trail access. I'm a longtime mountainbiker and would like to be able to ride my eMTB more places. Less than 50% of the trails I ride are legally open to ebikes in my area. Almost all MUPs and roads, on the other hand, are open to all classes of ebikes.

I personally disagree that the 3 class system is some major problem, it seems to work fine. What would you propose as making more sense?

 

[AHicks]

The issue is that MTB trails aren't currently going to accept faster ebikes or throttles; even class 1 can be a hard sell, which is a contributer to ebike access on singletrack still being very spotty. So either everyone needs to accept that the One True Class will be slower than what we have now or we need to largely give up on access to a lot of singletrack. The linked article is largely talking about trail access. I'm a longtime mountainbiker and would like to be able to ride my eMTB more places. Less than 50% of the trails I ride are legally open to ebikes in my area. Almost all MUPs and roads, on the other hand, are open to all classes of ebikes.

I personally disagree that the 3 class system is some major problem, it seems to work fine. What would you propose as making more sense?

Not up on MTB trails, so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on that scene. I WILL question why the other 90+% of us should be affected by issues that are likely unique to MTB's and some of the trails that were designed for them to run on? For example, regarding how rules that apply to them might be justified in a multi use path scenario....

Keeping in mind the age of the average e-bike rider, please explain how putting a throttle on a bike (effectively changing it's "class" in the current structure) makes any sense at all?

I'm a big fan of Florida's laws, allowing ANY e-bike anywhere a bike can go. Not that I think it's perfect, but it makes MUCH more sense than what we have now with this "class" system.

 

[m@Robertson]

Not necessary. On singletrack the trail itself generally regulates the speed and its well below 20 mph. The limits posed by the environment and practices are well-described by @jabberwocky above. Speeds in excess of 10-20 mph generally happen because downhill, and that is every bike thanks to gravity. As in not a problem unless some bozo is coming up a downhill trail. I literally just saw this happen riding with a friend this week where we were zooming down a hill and three ebikers were coming up at the same time. I don't think they were going faster than 10 mph if that, but being there at all was the problem.

The article is just about some people who think a new class might be in order because maybe something might happen. Seems like typical FUD from the analog MTB community. A holding action after the abandonment of attempts to deny access entirely failed.

 

[Gordon71]

Not necessary. On singletrack the trail itself generally regulates the speed and its well below 20 mph. The limits posed by the environment and practices are well-described by @jabberwocky above. Speeds in excess of 10-20 mph generally happen because downhill, and that is every bike thanks to gravity. As in not a problem unless some bozo is coming up a downhill trail. I literally just saw this happen riding with a friend this week where we were zooming down a hill and three ebikers were coming up at the same time. I don't think they were going faster than 10 mph if that, but being there at all was the problem.

The article is just about some people who think a new class might be in order because maybe something might happen. Seems like typical FUD from the analog MTB community. A holding action after the abandonment of attempts to deny access entirely failed.

That can be a problem on the trail I ride on. Signs say class 1 only and 20 MPH speed limit. Problem is 20 mph is too fast on 90+% of the trail. When you have a downhill section with plenty of curves that you can't see around, what are you going to do when you go around said curve at speeds even close to 20 and you encounter another bike or hikers approaching from the opposite direction. To confound the problem the signs at the beginning of the trail that say "keep right except to pass" are often ignored by both hikers and kids on bikes.

 

[jabberwocky]

Not up on MTB trails, so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on that scene. I WILL question why the other 90+% of us should be affected by issues that are likely unique to MTB's and some of the trails that were designed for them to run on? For example, regarding how rules that apply to them might be justified in a multi use path scenario....

Keeping in mind the age of the average e-bike rider, please explain how putting a throttle on a bike (effectively changing it's "class" in the current structure) makes any sense at all?

I'm a big fan of Florida's laws, allowing ANY e-bike anywhere a bike can go. Not that I think it's perfect, but it makes MUCH more sense than what we have now with this "class" system.

I'm unfamiliar with Florida, but somewhat skeptical that they blanket allow ebike access everywhere bikes can go in the whole state. Most states that have enshrined definitions in the state code (like my home state of VA) basically say that for the purpose of the vehicular code, ebikes are bikes, but does have exceptions (local jurisdictions can still ban them in locations they control if they choose) and in any case doesn't apply to locations not directly governed by the state code, like parks and such. Like, VA says my class 1 eMTB is a bike, but that doesn't mean I can ride it on trails in the GW National Forest near me because thats a different governing body (the National Forest Service, which is under the Department of Agriculture, which still basically bans all ebikes on natural surface trails). My local MUP is managed by a multi-county parks department (NoVA Parks) who decide what sort of access they will allow. Etc.

My understanding is the throttle/class 2 cutoff is because the federal definition for electric bike says that it can't travel past 20mph under motor power alone. So the throttle class (2) is capped at 20mph, but class 3 allows the higher speed because its pedal assist only and you have to be supplying some of the power yourself. Class 1 creates an ebike with the 20mph cap but no throttle, which is important if you want trail access on them. For a variety of reasons, throttles are a very difficult sell on natural surface trails, at least for the moment. I think the future is class 2/3 for road/commuting duties, and class 1 is eMTBs. Not there yet because some states don't have/allow class 3s (my home state of PA, for instance, only allows 20mph bikes at the moment, though it seems likely they will adopt the 3 class system soonish).

Not necessary. On singletrack the trail itself generally regulates the speed and its well below 20 mph. The limits posed by the environment and practices are well-described by @jabberwocky above. Speeds in excess of 10-20 mph generally happen because downhill, and that is every bike thanks to gravity. As in not a problem unless some bozo is coming up a downhill trail. I literally just saw this happen riding with a friend this week where we were zooming down a hill and three ebikers were coming up at the same time. I don't think they were going faster than 10 mph if that, but being there at all was the problem.

The article is just about some people who think a new class might be in order because maybe something might happen. Seems like typical FUD from the analog MTB community. A holding action after the abandonment of attempts to deny access entirely failed.

Dunno man, around me most of the MTB world is cautiously optimistic about ebikes. There are some die-hards that don't think they should exist, but the majority opinion seems to be to allow access, even among people with no interest in owning one. The issue is mainly that many governing agencies and land managers really don't like/are scared of the idea of motorized vehicles on singletrack. I think we will get there, but its definitely happening at a slower pace than the rest of the cycling world.

That said, if you asked me 10 years ago where the speed cutoff should be I probably would have picked something closer to 15mph than 20. 20 is pretty fast on singletrack. Even after riding my class 1 for a few years I sometimes think "damn this thing is fast" on trails.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

My vote- ban/trash can all of the classes and come up with something that makes much more sense.

That's fine. Specifically what would that something be?

It is much more work to build plumbing than it is to burn down an outhouse. You might want to do the former before the latter.

 

[kevinmccune]

Not necessary. On singletrack the trail itself generally regulates the speed and its well below 20 mph. The limits posed by the environment and practices are well-described by @jabberwocky above. Speeds in excess of 10-20 mph generally happen because downhill, and that is every bike thanks to gravity. As in not a problem unless some bozo is coming up a downhill trail. I literally just saw this happen riding with a friend this week where we were zooming down a hill and three ebikers were coming up at the same time. I don't think they were going faster than 10 mph if that, but being there at all was the problem.

The article is just about some people who think a new class might be in order because maybe something might happen. Seems like typical FUD from the analog MTB community. A holding action after the abandonment of attempts to deny access entirely failed.

One way trails?

 

[jabberwocky]

One way trails?

They do exist but are the exception. Mainly the issue is that trails are considered downhill only more by custom than actual rule, which has worked fine for a long time because they are very difficult to climb. By the time someone has the ability and fitness to climb them they know better, or at least know to be careful. Ebikes short circuit that because even a new, not very fit rider can make their way up them and don't have the experience to know better which can cause issues.

I'll note that I'm not talking about trails that are just downhill, mainly I'm talking about trails that are so steep and technical (rocky, roots/ledges, etc) that they are difficult to walk down, and its difficult to stop while riding down.

 

[m@Robertson]

One way trails?

...Mainly the issue is that trails are considered downhill only more by custom than actual rule, which has worked fine for a long time because they are very difficult to climb. By the time someone has the ability and fitness to climb them they know better, or at least know to be careful. Ebikes short circuit that because even a new, not very fit rider can make their way up them and don't have the experience to know better which can cause issues.

^^^ this. Exactly.

You take the thrill-ride leg down at speed and an easier leg to go back up so you could bomb down again. Nowadays, thanks to the existence of emtbs, going up that thrill ride can be reasonably done with assist, and you can wind up with newer riders who don't realize what it is they have gotten themselves into. Thats what happened earlier this week. The riders were nice enough and it all worked out but as we came rocketing around a blind corner the result was almost catastrophic.

That can be a problem on the trail I ride on. Signs say class 1 only and 20 MPH speed limit. Problem is 20 mph is too fast on 90+% of the trail.

Yes for sure thats true except for a dedicated downhill section, where its a windy chute and nobody is pedaling or throttling or whatever because gravity is taking you faster than any motor can push you.

When you have a downhill section with plenty of curves that you can't see around, what are you going to do when you go around said curve at speeds even close to 20 and you encounter another bike or hikers approaching from the opposite direction.

Well thats the problem. But for your more sedate trail where people are on say a rolling hill or gentle embankment this doesn't happen. Thats why some trails are considered (not regulated) one-way. Where as-noted, in the past you'd never see anyone riding up one because in the days before electric motors you'd be miserable trying it.

To confound the problem the signs at the beginning of the trail that say "keep right except to pass" are often ignored by both hikers and kids on bikes.

Rule 1: pedestrians are too cool to obey traffic conventions of any kind. Thus its on the cyclist to pay attention for them because if you don't you'll smash them into the dirt and thats a situation you will never justify in front of a cop or a jury. Life ain't fair.

 

[m@Robertson]

Dunno man, around me most of the MTB world is cautiously optimistic about ebikes. There are some die-hards that don't think they should exist, but the majority opinion seems to be to allow access, even among people with no interest in owning one.

Nowadays, I'd agree. The scales have tipped and we are no longer looking at a cage match fight of e-riders vs. haters. Those who are still committed to opposition are now fighting holding actions for restrictions, and they're not winning those battles from what I can see. In fact thats exactly the viewpoint I see the OP's subject article coming from.

That same ride day I was talking about above, I told a diehard buddy of mine who is analog-only to go ride my Tracer and have fun. 2 minutes pointing out how assist works, where the throttle is and to stay off of it until he was familiar with how the bike handled on pedal assist, and he was off. He's a daily rider in his 60's and recognizes that time isn't standing still for him and his physique. He's still not ready to give in and buy one but he did admit afterwards that he really (really) liked the feeling of pedal assist, which was his first.

 

[J.R.]

I'm unfamiliar with Florida, but somewhat skeptical that they blanket allow ebike access everywhere bikes can go in the whole state.

I have family in Jacksonville and I asked about the ebike laws and regulations. I was given this link.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Their ebike classes are the same 3 as all other states, see #23

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

As other states all 3 classes of ebikes have the same rights and responsibilities as bicycle riders, where they can be used is up to local governments and authorities.

"However, this section may not be construed to prevent a local government, through the exercise of its powers under s. 316.008, from adopting an ordinance governing the operation of electric bicycles on streets, highways, sidewalks, and sidewalk areas under the local government’s jurisdiction; to prevent a municipality, county, or agency of the state having jurisdiction over a bicycle path, multiuse path, or trail network from restricting or prohibiting the operation of an electric bicycle on a bicycle path, multiuse path, or trail network; or to prevent a municipality, county, or agency of the state having jurisdiction over a beach as defined in s. 161.54(3) or a dune as defined in s. 161.54(4) from restricting or prohibiting the operation of an electric bicycle on such beach or dune."

Link to the above text on the state's website. The above is all dated this year, 2022

Unfortunately like so many places around the country, 'experts' misrepresent the state's laws on official looking websites like this one.

E-Bikes and What Florida Law Says about Them

Chris Burns gives an overview on e-bikes, or electronic-assist bicycles, and how they relate to bicycle laws in the State of Florida.

floridacyclinglaw.com

There are local jurisdictions that ban ebikes in Florida in places where bicycles are allowed, this is one such place. (Dated 1/10/2022)

Pinellas beach communities ban e-bikes, e-scooters on the sand

Some Pinellas County beach communities are cracking down on electric bikes and scooters. St. Pete Beach is the latest city to ban motorized bikes, scooters and skateboards on the beach and on sidewalks along Gulf Boulevard.

www.abcactionnews.com

As to whether some paths and trails are limited by class, I haven't looked into it.

 

[jabberwocky]

As other states all 3 classes of ebikes have the same rights and responsibilities as bicycle riders, where they can be used is up to local governments and authorities.

Thats about what I expected, thanks for that. I was wondering if Florida had some unusual state pre-emption law that prevented local jurisdictions from making those decisions (which would be very unusual in the US, but hey, it is Florida). That looks pretty standard though, pretty much identical to VA and other states. I did a quick check on MTBProject to see what trails are around there and saw some systems in National Forests did think "theres no way Florida is pre-empting the Department of Agriculture on their own land...." And of course, they aren't.

 

[jabberwocky]

Nowadays, I'd agree. The scales have tipped and we are no longer looking at a cage match fight of e-riders vs. haters. Those who are still committed to opposition are now fighting holding actions for restrictions, and they're not winning those battles from what I can see. In fact thats exactly the viewpoint I see the OP's subject article coming from.

For sure. Some of those holding actions are going to go for decades though.

Personally, if I could flip a switch on my eMTB and turn it into a 15mph bike and be allowed to ride it everywhere I can ride my normal mtb, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I just don't think a) its realistic to expect it to ever happen, and b) that having a class 0 would really expand access any faster than its already expanding.

 

[AHicks]

I'm unfamiliar with Florida, but somewhat skeptical that they blanket allow ebike access everywhere bikes can go in the whole state.

This would be your mistake....

Most states that have enshrined definitions in the state code (like my home state of VA) basically say that for the purpose of the vehicular code, ebikes are bikes, but does have exceptions (local jurisdictions can still ban them in locations they control if they choose) and in any case doesn't apply to locations not directly governed by the state code, like parks and such. Like, VA says my class 1 eMTB is a bike, but that doesn't mean I can ride it on trails in the GW National Forest near me because thats a different governing body (the National Forest Service, which is under the Department of Agriculture, which still basically bans all ebikes on natural surface trails). My local MUP is managed by a multi-county parks department (NoVA Parks) who decide what sort of access they will allow. Etc.

My understanding is the throttle/class 2 cutoff is because the federal definition for electric bike says that it can't travel past 20mph under motor power alone. So the throttle class (2) is capped at 20mph, but class 3 allows the higher speed because its pedal assist only and you have to be supplying some of the power yourself. Class 1 creates an ebike with the 20mph cap but no throttle, which is important if you want trail access on them. For a variety of reasons, throttles are a very difficult sell on natural surface trails, at least for the moment. I think the future is class 2/3 for road/commuting duties, and class 1 is eMTBs. Not there yet because some states don't have/allow class 3s (my home state of PA, for instance, only allows 20mph bikes at the moment, though it seems likely they will adopt the 3 class system soonish).

I think most understand what the class definitions are now. Parroting them again here not necessary. The problems come in when you try to come up with the logic behind them to justify their existence. We already know removing the throttle from a class 2 effectively makes it a class 1. So again, starting from that point, please explain the piece explaining how having one might make your class 2 bike illegal.

The ONLY reason I can think of is because of the knee jerk reaction mode these rule makers were in. If you can think of another, I'd sure like to hear about it.