An older article about e bikes !

Ebiker01

Ebiker01

Well-Known Member
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/...CfBrG6CdPNmUCiTqEII2d_IAFC0kf5a187u2rxW86zpLk



Now, is a long article , it is worth reading it. Now , I agree with the main points :
- regular e bikes are underpowered, low battery range
- the speed limit makes no sense; using same logic why not limit all cars from factory at 85-90mph ?? They are v. Dangerous too when being driven fast. That’s the logic behind limiting e bikes right ?

There are many other great observations in the article , I do agree with most of them, but b/c I am also new to e bikes (1year only) It takes time to know this e bike stuff.
 
Higher speed limits will no doubt result in mandatory insurance. I am ok with that since higher speeds will result in more serious injuries and damage.
 
A couple of things:
  • That article is two years old. If you are talking about e-bikes in 2016 as opposed to today you may as well be talking about e-bikes when the Meringovians ruled France.
  • His sales numbers for Pedegos are off by about a factor of ten. He also is intermixing 2015 sales numbers with 2016 dealer numbers, which makes the whole enterprise look unprofitable.
  • The logic around a speed and power limit for e-bikes is that they can be classified as motorized bicycles, which are treated as bicycles and can use bike paths and bike infra. If you eliminate the speed and power limit it is reasonable to classify e-bikes as motor vehicles, which implies they need to be licensed and insured like any other motor vehicle, and cannot use bicycle infra.
  • E-bikes today are limited by the physics of lithium batteries. You can have a bike that goes faster and is more powerful, but all other things being equal that will greatly reduce range, and at some point you get to massively diminishing returns as any power increase will require more batteries, which are both heavy and expensive.
  • E-bikes seem to be quite popular and have gained a great deal of acceptance in European countries with great bicycle infra. The 25kph limit imposed by the EU doesn't seem to limit e-bike adoption.
 
Ebiker01 said:
...Now , I agree with the main points :
- the speed limit makes no sense; using same logic why not limit all cars from factory at 85-90mph ?? They are v. Dangerous too when being driven fast. That’s the logic behind limiting e bikes right ?..
Click to expand...

"The entire industry is stuck pushing underpowered crap while the entire ebike reviewer world heralds each new ebike as the ‘next best thing’ while they are all just obscenely underpowered."

This was a quote from the article. Utterly ridiculous. Speaking for myself only: I essentially want a bicycle that offers some assistance. If I wanted a motorcycle I would have purchased one. In the realm of bicycles, there is no way I would consider my Bosch CX as underpowered.
 
That is one perspective and makes for what is doubtless a super fun beach and snow bike/moped.

it would be interesting to do the Bafang ultra add-on/modification on a well endowed, full suspension bike, add fenders, a rack and lights and have a two wheeled, ultra comfy commuter that enables you arrive, on time, safely without sweat, at your destination. It would be a beast but not really much of a fitness, long distance, touring set up though. Pedals would be almost an afterthought rather than essential.

As to the article being nicely written, I thought it rather more nasty than nice.
 
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I weight 165-175, with my work backpack(40-50lb of tools) , I like to ride it @23-24mph, the 600wh battery barely makes it to 30miles -about 15-25% battery left. No hills.
If I would had to ride hills , the range would be even lower.
So, the point is we do need e bikes with BIG battery 1kw min, LOTS of power (1kw) min. .
If people accept 500watts as okay for both bat. And power and 20mph limit then we are greatly limited.
Otherwise is ride, charge, ride , charge...at least for me.
 
I weigh 210 and am 68 years old. I ride a Bosch 28 mph type 3 bike with a 500 watt battery. At 24-26 mph I get 30-35 miles out of one battery. If I am riding further, I either slow down to 15-20 and get 45 miles or I carry a second battery. No magic bullets. To go further slow down or pedal harder.
 
The writer is catering to a certain crowd and is intentionally belligerent. Whether you like his style or not he's very knowledgeable, it's due to his blog I now include a BBSHD drive among my eBikes. I agree with him that most eBikes are pathetic in range and power for most mature adults. The builders like Juiced and Biktrix that are putting out decent bikes are selling them by the boatload.
 
Increasing the power / speed of ebikes will make them more dangerous and put them in the realm of motor scooters & motorcycles. This will eventually result in registration / insurance requirements. Many ebike owners commute with their bikes to save money. If they have to pay insurance and registration costs, many will simply continue to use their cars.

Lawmakers in many states see the ebike as a way to relieve traffic congestion and are therefore lenient on regulations. If complaints about abusive riders, safety issues and costs climb, stricter regulations are sure to follow.

The option for motorists to use mopeds and scooters has been around for decades. For those who want to go faster, get insurance and use one of these. Don't try and make the ebike into something it wasn't designed or intended to do.
 
Having a bike with a 1000 watt drive doesn't make it a threat to society. Everyone doesn't drive a Honda Civic or fly in a Piper Cub, why should they ride a 250 watt bike? It's amazing, I'll bet most people who are all for bike controls and regulation support laws that let everyone walk around with an AR15 or .44 Magnum. I don't have any of my bikes set to exceed 20 mph but I like to be able to go up a grade at 20 mph not 2 mph. People keep bringing up motorcycles, should they be limited to 10 hp?
 
Feliz said:
Having a bike with a 1000 watt drive doesn't make it a threat to society. Everyone doesn't drive a Honda Civic or fly in a Piper Cub, why should they ride a 250 watt bike? It's amazing, I'll bet most people who are all for bike controls and regulation support laws that let everyone walk around with an AR15 or .44 Magnum. I don't have any of my bikes set to exceed 20 mph but I like to be able to go up a grade at 20 mph not 2 mph. People keep bringing up motorcycles, should they be limited to 10 hp?
Click to expand...
So, well said Feliz !! That is the issue I am confronting myself. Say if I have to stop on 10% incline, the 200+lb weight With the 5-800watt motor , i’d Like it to start really fast and GO.
It will be intersting what people will accept and how sales will fare, but from what I see in metro Ny/Nj areas very few ride e bikes.
The Uber might change that as they are planning to bring e bike rentals, limited of course to 18pmh. Why wasn’t their autonomous Jeep limited to 35mph ?? The one that caused that accident a few months ago.
 
It is interesting to see different opinions. If you look at the comments (100+) on that article, they all seem to support the writer even though his writings have very bullish, arrogant-comedic tone to them.
Very different crowd I believe.

Brose, Bosch CX or Yamaha certainly put out more than 500W. In real world testing, Brose motor tuned by specialized was putting out more 600+ watts. [video below]
Personally, I would be happy with a bike that gets me to 28mph irrespective of the voltage and is light enough ( ~45lbs ish) so I can ride like a regular bike. 750W would be sweet spot, you can build a powerful bike that will have power and range and stay within the realm of bicycle (<60lbs). My Stromer is at the very limit of a bicycle in terms of weight (60lbs). Riding a 70lbs bike in tight city streets is not fun. So, finding that sweet-spot between power, weight and range is a tricky thing.

Bosch speed de-limiting devices are very popular in EU. People certainly don't like when they are limited to 20mph while regular roadies can/are doing 25+ mph. Success of 28mph bikes and speed de-limit devices are testimony to that.

 
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Just the mere fact that he states that one should be prepared to have bicycle parts and even frames breaking down with such high power & torque should be a clear sign that this is really no longer a bicycle but rather a more powerful, poorly engineered motorized vehicle with weaknesses and even serious danger to the rider. A comment in this thread stated. "that most eBikes are pathetic in range and power for most mature adults ". I think that just the opposite is true. A crotch rocket like this pretending to be a bicycle, with capabilities that far exceed the engineered purposes of the components, is really more a machine for somewhat less mature adults.s How's that for a curmudgeonly observation? ;)
 
One thing I worry about is that the rise of e-bikes that aren't classified as motorized bicycles might have some very unpleasant consequences. The worst-case scenario I can see is that if many e-bikes are classified as motor vehicles, local governments who might otherwise build bicycle infrastructure will use the excuse that since nearly everyone is converting to e-bikes, we don't need to build bike lanes or bike paths and all cyclists can just deal with traffic.

Using China as a counterexample is a poor guide since there are substantial regulatory and economic barriers to personal car ownership in China. So it isn't like e-bikes are replacing cars in China -- they are the only realistic option for many residents.
 
We have certainly not reached the peak saturation of ebike technology. It's still new and rapidly evolving in terms of engineering, design philosophy, supply chain, and market acceptance.
While most people in EU may be ok with pedelec drive systems, it is clear that the American market needs more power. May be not so much the top speed but certainly more oopmh at the lower end. People here despise being limited to certain speed which is an arbitrary limit. I do own 2 bosch speed bikes and have interacted with 100's ebikers. People who are serious about ebikes, don't like this 20mph limit.

The popularity of Rad, juiced, M2S, Pedego bikes speaks for that.
Majority of the bike manufacturers who don't use Bosch system, accuse them of lobbying hard at federal and state level to legislate regulations that favor them. They hate companies who have the money and intention to squish small players with real engineering capabilities.
One of the complaints lodged during the EU anti-dumping hearing is that EU manufacturers tend to market and push their self interests even though there are better and inexpensive products already available in the Asian markets. ($950 for a 500whr bosch powerpack is little capitalistic considering the cells, BMS, charger for bosch are all are made in China). Bosch recently raised the cost of speed drives due to changes in the EU laws and you see less of their speed motors on many EU bike manufacturers.

The author of this article takes a very exaggerated stance at the current market offerings (2016) but he seems to represent certain anguish that many other people in the industry feel. There is a reason why there are many small companies and entities like Electricbike.com, lunacycle have made an impression in the DIY market.
There is a reason why Rad and Juiced have caught on (keeping aside their marketing and customer service). People do enjoy a bit more power and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. They don't want a 2KW scooter but they don't want to limited to 20mph after paying $3K either.

This article is more like a rebellion of a teenager to the conservative parents (industry) and as the industry matures, these things will pass into oblivion.
 
If I was looking to be able to have more power than my ebikes provide I would be looking at something like this:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

It lacks pedals and requires registration and insurance and can’t use bike paths but so will the class of e bikes that are recently being discussed here.
 
Now that is some temptation! Two or three thrilling rides then gathering dust in the garage.
 
I’ve been reading about the Frey ht1000 bike.
http://www.frey.bike/
Like a Juiced , Flx bikes , but with an 10008wh battery and 750/1000w motor. BUT not available to buy in Us .


Quote- “ All the other models come with Bafang Ultra 1000W mid drive system with throttle and torque sensor PAS system. And in coming 2019, we will develop a self-own integrated battery system with capacity >1000WH to meet the market demands better. “
So, someone from this e bike companies does read the e bike forums !! Bosch/Easy motion and all other e bike companies with sub 700wh batteries are you listening ??

It Comes directly from the world greatest manufacturer of everything. My understanding is that it is around 3k and that in2019 they are planning an even bigger battery.
On the other forum they were talking about it and good reviews so far.
 
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