ABS for E-Bikes

[lilrich]

Being one of the OG (old guy) original members of ABATE (a brotherhood against totalitarian enactments) of Wisconsin members we have been involved in motorcycle safety since the early 70s. While technologies that make riding safer are always a good thing I have found that education is far more effective in reducing injuries. In the eighties the motorcycle industry was overwhelmed by what was called the Japanese invasion. High powered, inexpensive machines that seemed especially attractive to the younger rider flooded the market. Inexperienced riders were killing themselves before the shine wore off their machine. At the same time the state government was trying to bring back a helmet law as a rider to a seatbelt law and was trying to raid a fund that had accumulated from raising motorcycle registration to build waysides for bikes and off road trails to build a marina instead. We protested flooding the capital with over 750,000 bikes and got the helmet law removed from consideration but of course the money was never returned from the fund. We pushed a bill instead that would require new riders receive safety and skills training before getting a motorcycle endorsement. Abate ran the training under contract to the DOT for years and expanded it to also include voluntary advanced courses for experienced riders and eventually had full time paid instructors. My point is this in the first year after implementation the number of fatal injuries were reduced greatly. We have also been involved in educational programs and policies that help to make non bike road users more aware of motorcycles and their issues further reducing injuries. Wisconsin remains a non mandatory helmet use state and has one of the lowest motorcycle injury and fatality rates in the nation even factoring in the seasonal nature of our riding season and other issues. I think having skilled riders who do not depend on technology to save them from being unprepared for situations is far more useful and enhances the usefulness of those technologies even more. Just my opinion but I think too many times we find people who ride way beyond their skill level, or impaired or whatever and push the technology way beyond it's ability to make up for their poor judgement. Every winter I see major accidents with cars who depend on their four wheel drive, ABS equipped vehicles to ride beyond their skills. Basic knowledge and experience of the characteristics, shortcomings of their vehicle and their own capabilities are far more important than technologies that allow them to get away with bad decisions until their luck finally runs out. JMHO...Ride safe

 

[tomjasz]

I have found that education is far more effective in reducing injuries.

Eggs Ackley! This regards ATGATT and all safety measures. I keep harping that eBikers do not train, practice or know even basic braking capabilities of their bikes. I imagine it’ll be harder to educate eBikers than MC riders. Afterall it’s “just” a bike. Testosterone doesn’t help.

 

[Ebiker01]

Next up: Traction Control. With a press of a button on the display dashboard, that 15% soft dirt and mud grade is easily conquered. No more tire slipping out from under you as Traction Control engages the drive motor with lightning speed, 100,000 times per second!

In the Development Pipeline: Rider Airbag.....Pedestrian Avoidance Technology.....Heated and Cooled Saddle and Grips......Anti-Theft System using Iris Biometric Technology.........Industry First 96 Month Payment Plan with Platinum Service Plan & Free Towing included for the first 3000 miles or 30 months, whatever comes first! All with our first-ever 700wh battery!

Yes they are all in the pipeline. I know Greyp has Fingerprint technology. I’d like a rocket seat ejector too with parachute of course.... and a sonar /face scanner for identifying bad drivers /cars.

 

[Ebiker01]

Wait a sec., braking distance has to be affected by rider weight too !! Now ,what would change if a rider is 135lb vs. a 280lb rider going on an ebike at 25mph both braking hard ?? Same bikes, just what would the distances be ?

 

[tomjasz]

just what would the distances be ?

thgats for a sensible rider to establish. Have a field day with friends and sort your rides!

 

[DouglasB]

My understanding of ABS is that by keeping the tires from skidding it also increases the stopping power, not because of any magic ability of the ABS but by avoiding skidding, all of the stopping power of the vehicle is applied to the road, through the tires. Before ABS you learned to "pumped" your breaks in an emergency, for a "do it yourself" ABS How many times have you skidded on your bike because of your brakes? Maybe you have but I rarely if ever do. I can only remember one incident in which I had such a sudden stop that the bike kept going after the wheels had stopped. I popped a tire, abrading it on the rough pavement. I suppose ABS would have helped but that was the only time. A cyclist is usually (I say usually) attuned to his or her bicycle to a very high degree, especially through the braking system. Usually enough to avoid skidding. I've skidded a few casing in my day but mostly in cars or motorcycles, and appreciate ABS on my motorized vehicles. I suppose it could be of help to some but what next? Self driving Bicycles?

 

[Zaphod]

I think a bike ABS system is more useful in emergency braking situations not so much with poor road conditions. When a rider executes a panic stop, he/she is probably going to squeeze the levers like they're hanging onto a tree limb dangling over the side of a cliff. ABS would be very useful with these types of stops. There is something I noted from the ebike log web site link at the start of this thread. The article stated that the Bosch system merely reduces brake pressure at the point of wheel lock. If true, this is different from automobile ABS--I can't speak for motorcycles. When you lock up the wheels in your ABS-equipped auto, the brakes pulse. You can feel it in the brake pedal. This is not the same thing as reducing brake pressure. Pulsing the brakes is a better way to implement ABS as it also results in shorter stops. If bike ABS merely reduces brake pressure, engaging the ABS on a bicycle should be no different than a rider applying the optimum pressure when braking normally. Thus, a bike ABS system will not result in shorter stopping distances.

 

[JRA]

How did 60mph become the benchmark for brake testing for eBikes or even possible on a bicycle? I have drop bar eBikes and am no lightweight and have gone down seriously steep grades with long straight stretches and have never seen close to 60mph, more like 40-45 max. My comfort limit however for bicycle rated components is 30mph and as I have regen I find that using it instead of riding the brakes keeps me at just about that speed nicely.

 

[linklemming]

I think a bike ABS system is more useful in emergency braking situations not so much with poor road conditions. When a rider executes a panic stop, he/she is probably going to squeeze the levers like they're hanging onto a tree limb dangling over the side of a cliff. ABS would be very useful with these types of stops. There is something I noted from the ebike log web site link at the start of this thread. The article stated that the Bosch system merely reduces brake pressure at the point of wheel lock. If true, this is different from automobile ABS--I can't speak for motorcycles. When you lock up the wheels in your ABS-equipped auto, the brakes pulse. You can feel it in the brake pedal. This is not the same thing as reducing brake pressure. Pulsing the brakes is a better way to implement ABS as it also results in shorter stops. If bike ABS merely reduces brake pressure, engaging the ABS on a bicycle should be no different than a rider applying the optimum pressure when braking normally. Thus, a bike ABS system will not result in shorter stopping distances.

Are you suggesting that car ABS systems have the ability to add pressure. While Im not a car ABS engineer, everything I have ever read(alot) states that it simply reduces pressure to the wheel(s) which it senses are starting to lock up. This would cause pulsing at the pedal. Lots of videos on youtube about this

 

[lilrich]

My point exactly. Just because the machine has the capability does not necessarily translate when the rider does not. With assisted bikes allowing people to get back into riding who dropped out of riding from age, lack of heath etc. I regularly get customers who want class two machines or extreme off road capabilities who have not ridden in years, or compromise the handling of their bikes with overloading or carrying pets. Just because someone can afford the latest greatest thing does not necessarily mean it is the right or appropriate ride. I encourage people to try out a less powerful (and many times more affordable) machine and see if that is more in line with their use and abilities. I would feel irresponsible putting a novice rider on a

Hayabusa who expects to be able to ride at close to 200mph just because the machine has the capability. A race capable machine does not make the rider a racer. I had one customer grab an assisted recumbent trike and took off for a test ride without any experience. Luckily he was not injured too badly and the bike was not damaged beyond repair. I encourage dealers and customers as well to take the time to learn not only their machines limitations but their own. I love the new advancements and how they enhance the experience and abilities​

but common sense tells me there is always one limiting factor that needs to be considered...the rider.

 

[linklemming]

How did 60mph become the benchmark for brake testing for eBikes or even possible on a bicycle? I have drop bar eBikes and am no lightweight and have gone down seriously steep grades with long straight stretches and have never seen close to 60mph, more like 40-45 max. My comfort limit however for bicycle rated components is 30mph and as I have regen I find that using it instead of riding the brakes keeps me at just about that speed nicely.

Well yes it is, only if your a nut with alot of testosterone.

Fastest I have ever gone at sea-level in CA was about 45mph on pavement on a road bike and about 40mph on a mtb on a fast fire road. At an altitude of about 10kft in CO I have hit 62.8 on a MTB (with knobbies) on pavement with rim brakes nonetheless. Brake fade was scary.

I dont do that much anymore but can easily get over 40mph(in CO) on a good grade. These days Im wary of anything over 30mph.

 

[lilrich]

lol obviously if you hand over the bike to a random idiot who would play Valentino Rossi on the road, of course any bike will be dangerous.

But all the high tech electronic devices will save the rider. It's just a fact.
I'm talking about if you were to give two option to a same rider.

I'm not talking about;
responsible rider + low tech bike
or
irresponsible rider + high tech bike

I'm talking about for the exact same rider, the high tech bike will be safer.

Agreed, I would not give up the ABS on my latest motorcycle. No way can my human reactions compare to the monitoring the system does. Nor would I go back to rim brakes from the hydraulic disks I have on my eBike. Just saying even technology cannot compensate for incompetence.

 

[erider_61]

I suppose it could be of help to some but what next? Self driving Bicycles?

 

[Dewey]

Great, Bosch is a well known motorcycle ABS manufacture. ZF, Hitachi, Honda, Continental and others will soon enter the ebike ABS market.

You called it! BrakeForceOne is the other German ebike ABS manufacturer and is a 4 partner joint venture with ZF, Magura, and Battery manufacturer BMZ https://www.brakeforceone.de/en/e-bike-abs/
In Germany they're using a ZF brand "Sachs ABS" for the system which is designed to detect wheel lock up on both front and rear wheels, and if the rear wheel lifts, their product is an inline sensor/brake actuator small enough to be located inside the frame or discretely elsewhere, reportedly it uses CAN-Bus hardware to communicate with the display, controller, and the battery BMS to draw power for the brakes, Source: Elektrorad Magazin Issue 6 2018.

 

[Zaphod]

Are you suggesting that car ABS systems have the ability to add pressure? While Im not a car ABS engineer, everything I have ever read(alot) states that it simply reduces pressure to the wheel(s) which it senses are starting to lock up. This would cause pulsing at the pedal. Lots of videos on youtube about this

Yes, pressure can be added. There is a sensor on every wheel. When impending wheel lockup is detected, pressure is reduced only to that wheel. Conversely, when one wheel spins too quickly compared to the others, brake pressure is applied to that wheel. This adding+subtracting brake pressure is what causes the pulsing. It can happen many times per second--faster than is humanly possible. I doubt bike ABS does this. Perhaps this level of sophistication is not needed. Just reducing brake pressure should not cause pulsing any more than easing up on the brake levers.

 

[linklemming]

Yes, pressure can be added. There is a sensor on every wheel. When impending wheel lockup is detected, pressure is reduced only to that wheel. Conversely, when one wheel spins too quickly compared to the others, brake pressure is applied to that wheel. This adding+subtracting brake pressure is what causes the pulsing. It can happen many times per second--faster than is humanly possible. I doubt bike ABS does this. Perhaps this level of sophistication is not needed. Just reducing brake pressure should not cause pulsing any more than easing up on the brake levers.

Isnt pressure just being restored by the ABS pump? The solenoids bleed off pressure as needed and the ABS pump restores any bled off pressure.

 

[Zaphod]

Not sure what you're asking. Bike brake pressure comes solely from the rider squeezing the levers. No supplemental pressure is created, ABS or not. Automobile brakes are powered. You get more pressure than from the driver just pressing the brake pedal. Bike ABS is just a valve that reduces brake pressure to prevent wheel lock. Auto ABS is much more.

 

[glenmorenee]

It just "feels" like ABS will be become a standard with bicycles. Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but I am amazed at all the cautions and warnings and disclaimers that come with a bicycle nowadays. It's the seatpost, the handlebars, the QR, the battery, the brakes, the tires, etc. It takes up half the manual. Brutal price competition is always there and companies can handle that but it's the liability wild card that can do you in.

 

[Citycrosser]

How did 60mph become the benchmark for brake testing for eBikes or even possible on a bicycle? I have drop bar eBikes and am no lightweight and have gone down seriously steep grades with long straight stretches and have never seen close to 60mph, more like 40-45 max. My comfort limit however for bicycle rated components is 30mph and as I have regen I find that using it instead of riding the brakes keeps me at just about that speed nicely.

Oh, it's not the benchmark and there aren't any bench marks for e-bike brake testing. I simply used it as a reference as I can easily achieve 60 mph while coasting down a long hill near my home (on my drop bar road bike and my e-bike). That's all.

I guess that makes me a nut.

 

[tomjasz]

A cyclist is usually (I say usually) attuned to his or her bicycle to a very high degree, especially through the braking system.

Sadly and at the expense of some serious knocks we often go back to ebikes on an unfamiliar bike with little or no tuning of ourselves or the bike.. and go. And it’s great. What a joy, until... Many escape mishaps but us oldsters are at higher risk. I’m on a roll today with a single theme. Practice, test, and prepare. Motorcycle