A highly assisted model ?

[Palmthree]

Hello,
I'm from Europe and I've tested some ebikes (250W - 25kph) but all of them seemed rather underpowered: I felt like I had to pedal a lot, even with a low gear and very high assistance. To put it plainly: I was going faster (and accelerating faster) than with a normal bike, but I was (almost) as tired.
Are there bikes that assist more than others, for the same torque and power? How can we know about the absolute level of assistance ?
Thanks.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Hello,
I'm from Europe and I've tested some ebikes (250W - 25kph) but all of them seemed rather underpowered: I felt like I had to pedal a lot, even with a low gear and very high assistance. To put it plainly: I was going faster (and accelerating faster) than with a normal bike, but I was (almost) as tired.
Are there bikes that assist more than others, for the same torque and power? How can we know about the absolute level of assistance ?
Thanks.

Others will know for sure, but I think you've already sampled the max nominal assist the EU allows.

absolute level of assistance

Unfortunately, largely unknowable. Some ebike displays show motor power, but it's typically just the electrical input power. This reading correlates loosely at best with the mechanical power actually delivered to your drive wheel. Much will depend on motor shaft speed at the time, and you generally won't know that, either.

The 250W ratings you mentioned referred to nominal power ratings for continuous motor operation. Peak power can exceed that by 50% or more but not for long. Torque ratings are also nominal. Moreover, makers don't reveal the controller algorithms used to turn sensor inputs into electrical power delivery.

Upshot: The assist you're actually getting at any given moment is for all practical purposes unknowable on a typical ebike. But it's usefully feelable if you pay attention.

So keep doing what you're already doing: Test every candidate and pay close attention to how the power delivery feels in the terrain you'll be riding.

There are also mechanical ways to ease your pedaling load. Lowering my gearing to match my hilly terrain made a huge difference.

 

[Palmthree]

Peak power can exceed that by 50% or more but not for long.

I guess it's for accelerations, some hard hills and things like that.

But it's usefully feelable if you pay attention

To be clear, I tested a few bikes and felt differences, but I didn't think it was the control algorithm that made the difference. For example, I tested a Giant and didn't feel at all that I was being "helped", only that I had fairly quick pushes that allowed me to go easily to 20kph. On one slope, I found it difficult to "limit my efforts", I had the constant impression of having to "push the bike" (and this made my knees a little sore). Finally, I think I'm looking for a bike that allows me to pedal without putting a lot of power into my legs, but that's not a technical data that's accessible.

 

[DaveMatthews]

I guess it's for accelerations, some hard hills and things like that.

To be clear, I tested a few bikes and felt differences, but I didn't think it was the control algorithm that made the difference. For example, I tested a Giant and didn't feel at all that I was being "helped", only that I had fairly quick pushes that allowed me to go easily to 20kph. On one slope, I found it difficult to "limit my efforts", I had the constant impression of having to "push the bike" (and this made my knees a little sore). Finally, I think I'm looking for a bike that allows me to pedal without putting a lot of power into my legs, but that's not a technical data that's accessible.

Curious to know what make/models you tried?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I guess it's for accelerations, some hard hills and things like that.

To be clear, I tested a few bikes and felt differences, but I didn't think it was the control algorithm that made the difference. For example, I tested a Giant and didn't feel at all that I was being "helped", only that I had fairly quick pushes that allowed me to go easily to 20kph. On one slope, I found it difficult to "limit my efforts", I had the constant impression of having to "push the bike" (and this made my knees a little sore). Finally, I think I'm looking for a bike that allows me to pedal without putting a lot of power into my legs, but that's not a technical data that's accessible.

Bear in mind that power delivery schemes vary substantially from bike to bike — even within the same torque- or cadence-sensing category. Some are definitely better than others. I strongly prefer torque-sensing ebikes, but others find cadence-sensing a better fit. Good luck in your testing!

 

[Palmthree]

Curious to know what make/models you tried?

Like a dozen of commuter/step-through/45-60Nm/under 3000$ : Moustache Samedi, Specialized (Como & Vado) (Brose), Giant & Liv (Yamaha), Winora Tria (Bosch), two Kalkhoff and others.

Bear in mind that power delivery schemes vary substantially from bike to bike — even within the same torque- or cadence-sensing category. Some are definitely better than others. I strongly prefer torque-sensing ebikes, but others find cadence-sensing a better fit. Good luck in your testing!

Oh ? I didn't know about this difference. I think I prefer to pedal a little bit faster than a little bit harder.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Oh ? I didn't know about this difference.

Sounds like you've tested mostly mid-drives, and some nice ones, too. Guessing none had simple cadence-sensing assist.

I think I prefer to pedal a little bit faster than a little bit harder.

My strong preference as well. My torque-sensing hub-drive works quite well with my high cadence, but I had to lower the gearing to get there.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Like a dozen of commuter/step-through/45-60Nm/under 3000$ : Moustache Samedi, Specialized (Como & Vado) (Brose), Giant & Liv (Yamaha), Winora Tria (Bosch), two Kalkhoff and others.



Oh ? I didn't know about this difference. I think I prefer to pedal a little bit faster than a little bit harder.

Hmmm...
I have a Giant Stance E and it has been very satisfactory.
That said, here in Canada the limit for assist is 32kmh.
Kinda sounds like you're hitting the assist limit quickly, then when the assist is gone the pedaling becomes harder on a heavier bike.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Perhaps getting a bike you like, then adding a de-restricter device?
Note, I've not heard positive things about doing that on a Giant...

 

[Grueso]

Palmthree didn't say they ran into the assistance speed limit. Did you run into the 25 km/h speed limit, Palmthree?
Derestricting is a double edged sword. You might be having more fun, but often for a shorter time: e-bike injuries and deaths are on the rise for the older population in Europe.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hello,
I'm from Europe and I've tested some ebikes (250W - 25kph) but all of them seemed rather underpowered: I felt like I had to pedal a lot, even with a low gear and very high assistance. To put it plainly: I was going faster (and accelerating faster) than with a normal bike, but I was (almost) as tired.
Are there bikes that assist more than others, for the same torque and power? How can we know about the absolute level of assistance ?
Thanks.

First: Any legal European e-bike is limited to 25 km/h. The only exception is the type known as L1e-B, which is legally a moped (it is Type Approved, requires registration and insurance; can only be ridden with traffic but not on bike paths). Trek Allant+ 9s is an example. Its speed is limited to 45 km/h. Nowadays, L1e-B type e-bikes are unpopular in Europe, and only a few brands make them.

Second: 250 W is just a nominal continuous motor power. Good mid-drive motors easily offer up to 600 W of mechanical motor peak power and up to 4.1x rider's leg power boost. Motor brand names are, i.a, Bosch, Brose, Specialized/Brose, Giant/Yamaha, Shimano... Of course the higher motor model the more peak power.

Third: The definition of a "bicycle" in the EU includes "may be equipped with an auxiliary electric motor activated by pressing the pedals". If you want to have an e-bike that is legal and treated exactly as a traditional bicycle, you have to pedal.

If you, for instance, look to EU e-MTBs, wouldn't you be surprised they have enough power for extreme climbs?

This was ridden with legal Euro MTBs.

Now, you are hitting the 25 km/h limit very fast, then find it difficult to pedal without the motor assistance. You are not lacking the motor power: You are missing the speed. Please try a Specialized Vado SL non-EQ. The motor is only 240 W but the e-bike weighs 15-16 kg (5.0 vs 4.0). Once you have passed the 25 km/h limit, pedalling a Vado SL without assistance is as easy as doing that on a traditional bike. The motor would help you negotiate climbs and headwind.

 

[Palmthree]

I have a Giant Stance E and it has been very satisfactory.

I didn't try this one. I reached top speed fairly quickly, but mostly with harder gears.

Did you run into the 25 km/h speed limit, Palmthree?

Yes, pretty fast in 4-5-6-7 gears for example. But most of my rides were at about 22kph. It was too exhausting to go faster.

Perhaps getting a bike you like, then adding a de-restricter device?

It's not so much about the speed, but about the effort applied, which seems to me to be too much.
Could a de-restricter device do something about that ?

You are not lacking the motor power: You are missing the speed.

I'm lacking training.
And health, and good legs.
I think you have a point : the bikes seemed heavy and even with powerful motors, I've feeled their weights (in my body, my arms, In the pressure put on before the helper activates [it only lasts a few milliseconds, but that's enough])...
I think I prefer constant effort than constant speed by the way. The seller has a Como SL, not a Vado, but they seem about the same.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I didn't try this one. I reached top speed fairly quickly, but mostly with harder gears.

Yes, pretty fast in 4-5-6-7 gears for example. But most of my rides were at about 22kph. It was too exhausting to go faster.

It's not so much about the speed, but about the effort applied, which seems to me to be too much.
Could a de-restricter device do something about that ?

I'm lacking training.
And health, and good legs.
I think you have a point : the bikes seemed heavy and even with powerful motors, I've feeled their weights (in my body, my arms, In the pressure put on before the helper activates [it only lasts a few milliseconds, but that's enough])...
I think I prefer constant effort than constant speed by the way. The seller has a Como SL, not a Vado, but they seem about the same.

If I may summarize, you're still learning to handle and ride an ebike. You're mainly after an ebike that's easy to handle (light in weight) and easy to pedal. And you're willing to sacrifice some speed to get that.

Is that a fair statement?

If so, let's start with the weight. I found the weight of my ebike a little daunting at first, but I soon learned how to handle it. And mine's much heavier than the Como SL. Test the Como SL again with that in mind. The dealer may have tricks to share.

Then have the dealer show you how to ride the Como SL in low gears at highest assist. And how to downshift while slowing. That will set you up to re-accelerate — especially from a stop. You'll sacrifice speed and some battery range this way, but that might be OK for the riding you intend to do.

If that's still too much pedaling effort, ask the dealer about lowering the gearing for you. A relatively inexpensive swap to a smaller chainring might be all you need.

Alas, a progressive on-demand throttle would remove most if not all of your barriers to ebiking, but the EU doesn't allow them.

 

[DaveMatthews]

It's not so much about the speed, but about the effort applied, which seems to me to be too much.
Could a de-restricter device do something about that ?

The ebike is programmed to cease giving pedal assist at the legal speed limit. When you reach that speed, the assist turns off and you are on your own with a heavier than regular bike.
A de-restricting device allows the assist to be available over the legal limit, so it will assist until its own limit is reached.
It is not legal, and may even void a warranty, but many have done this.
I have not done this and have no desire/need to. I am not suggesting that you do something illegal, just pointing out why these devices exist.

 

[Palmthree]

If I may summarize, you're still learning to handle and ride an ebike. You're mainly after an ebike that's easy to handle (light in weight) and easy to pedal. And you're willing to sacrifice some speed to get that.

That's pretty right. I don't really a easy to handle bike (the bike I've ridden were nice) but rather very easy to pedal. I'm okay going to 20kph (especially if it prevents the assistance from cutting out). I'm going to practice a little bit more, maybe rent a e-bike for one week (a heavy one) and another (a lighter one) after that.

But I have a technical question : does the ebike "know" my weight (and deliver more power if I'm heavier) ?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

That's pretty right. I don't really a easy to handle bike (the bike I've ridden were nice) but rather very easy to pedal. I'm okay going to 20kph (especially if it prevents the assistance from cutting out). I'm going to practice a little bit more, maybe rent a e-bike for one week (a heavy one) and another (a lighter one) after that.

Excellent plan.

But I have a technical question : does the ebike "know" my weight (and deliver more power if I'm heavier) ?

In short, no. The ebikes you're looking at use various sensors to assess the effort (torque or power) you're putting into the pedals. Roughly speaking, the motor will then amplify that effort, with greater amplification at higher assist levels.

When you're riding in the saddle, the correlation between pedal effort and rider weight is weak at best. And the bike has no other way to assess your weight.

 

[Palmthree]

Excellent plan.


In short, no. The ebikes you're looking at use various sensors to assess the effort (torque or power) you're putting into the pedals. Roughly speaking, the motor will then amplify that effort, with greater amplification at higher assist levels.

When you're riding in the saddle, the correlation between pedal effort and rider weight is weak at best. And the bike has no other way to assess your weight.

Thanks.

I saw an automatic bike. It selects its own speed using a variator (there's no manual control, just the frequency of pedaling).

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Thanks.

I saw an automatic bike. It selects its own speed using a variator (there's no manual control, just the frequency of pedaling).

Those automatic internally geared hubs (IGHs) are pretty cool in principle but get somewhat mixed reviews in practice. Search on "Enviolo" and "Automatique" to look over the member reports.

Since you want easy pedaling above all, you might find an automatic IGH choosing gear ratios too high for your taste. Others will know if there are adjustments for that.

IGHs with manual shifting are also available. These still allow belt drives (with their many advantages) but leave you in control of cadence and ease of pedaling.

 

[McCorby]

Those automatic internally geared hubs (IGHs) are pretty cool in principle but get somewhat mixed reviews in practice. Search on "Enviolo" and "Automatique" to look over the member reports.

Since you want easy pedaling above all, you might find an automatic IGH choosing gear ratios too high for your taste. Others will know if there are adjustments for that.
.

It’s as simple as setting your desired cadence and the Enviolo Automatiq adjusts the gear ratio to maintain that cadence. So, if your cadence slows, it adjusts the gear ratio to maintain your selected cadence and your speed is reduced. If your cadence increases above your desired cadence, it adjusts the gear ratio to maintain your desired cadence and your speed increases. For me, it’s nothing short of magical! It just works. Most of the issues I’ve read on this forum seem to revolve around the Automatiq being paired with Specialized products and Specialized’s incessant need to be in control of everything…..that’s my take anyway.

 

[Palmthree]

IGHs with manual shifting are also available. These still allow belt drives (with their many advantages) but leave you in control of cadence and ease of pedaling.

It could be a better choice.

It’s as simple as setting your desired cadence and the Enviolo Automatiq adjusts the gear ratio to maintain that cadence

But what about the speed ? For example, if I want a slow cadence (like 40 rpm), a low gear for ease of pedaling but a "quite high speed" ?

Automatiq being paired with Specialized products

All of them ? I'm interested in a Como 3 (IGH) because the seller is selling it quite cheap (2000€) [but the seller doesn't really like it]. Can you post some links about these bad opinions ? Thanks.