A Battery Standard?

[Solom01]

So I found some stats on US sales of ebikes: https://www.statista.com/statistics/326124/us-sales-of-electric-bicycles/

This only goes to 2016, since numbers are counted at the end of the year, but it shows the danger of judging sales by anecdotal talk from vendors. After a peak in 2014 sales are actually down. Since these are small numbers even if 2017 were to be a banner year it still means that ebike sales in the US are a blip. I assume that part of these small numbers are because if only early adopters are buying these it would follow the early adopter curve, so after this small group buys their bikes there is no mass market to follow through. There could be a million other reason such as lack of infra-structure and other things, but maybe there is an opportunity for a vendor to consider building ebikes that appeal to the mass market in the US with good after sales customer support and common sense build for the US market. A lot of what we're getting is made to comply with EU regulations and conditions. As the SmartCar fiasco proved just because something makes sense in the EU doesn't make it suitable for the US.

 

[tomjasz]

So I found some stats on US sales of ebikes: https://www.statista.com/statistics/326124/us-sales-of-electric-bicycles/

This only goes to 2016, since numbers are counted at the end of the year, but it shows the danger of judging sales by anecdotal talk from vendors. After a peak in 2014 sales are actually down. Since these are small numbers even if 2017 were to be a banner year it still means that ebike sales in the US are a blip. I assume that part of these small numbers are because if only early adopters are buying these it would follow the early adopter curve, so after this small group buys their bikes there is no mass market to follow through. There could be a million other reason such as lack of infra-structure and other things, but maybe there is an opportunity for a vendor to consider building ebikes that appeal to the mass market in the US with good after sales customer support and common sense build for the US market. A lot of what we're getting is made to comply with EU regulations and conditions. As the SmartCar fiasco proved just because something makes sense in the EU doesn't make it suitable for the US.

Exactly what you'll see with the venerable Vespa scooter. Owners struggling to understand why they don't get all models and great support in the USA. Muricans are wasteful idiots. They'd rather drive 10 miles over the limit in an SUV, who the feeling it's their total right.

 

[todkapuz]

As for the Reention Dorado .. I wish I could just get the case itself, so I could stuff if with the bms, cells, and some additional items that I would like in it... I see places to get rediculous sized cells (aka rewraps) filled in the case... but I'd personally like to just get empty inside for cheaper shipping and not have to deal with fake unknown cells... basically just getting the extrusions to do with as I please.

As for e-bike / bicycle sales in general, until cities have infrastructure that is safe to use, uptake is going to be difficult. Take Miami.. there are over a thousand fatalities a year here for pedestrians and bicyclists. Primarily because drivers do not follow the road laws and are completely distracted. We're only behind Orlando, Tampa, and Jacksonville. First out state area behind us Memphis then Houston. Definitely what has prompted me to not really take it up until they recently put in a wide sidewalk for the half-mile stretch that, while signed 40MPH, is minimum 50... most 60+. It is a shame, since even with cost of cells and electricity out the wall, its about third that cost per mile of my car. Of course, rain doesn't help.

 

[Tora Harris]

We have now custom made a 78 Cell to fit the downtube platform and filled it with just about as much capacity as possible and even gave it a powerful BMS and GPS tracking capabilities. Internally we have changed to an open system XT60 connectors so effectively making if future-proof. As far as the city infrastructure, we cant do much about this.

 

[todkapuz]

yeah I saw that video last night... definitely curious about the GPS integration, and if you'll offer it on all the 78 packs, not just the ones for the S. Can't wait to see more, even if now I'm having a little envy for the CC-S model over what I purchased from y'all.

 

[tomjasz]

As for the Reention Dorado .. I wish I could just get the case itself, so I could stuff if with the bms, cells, and some additional items that I would like in it... I see places to get rediculous sized cells (aka rewraps) filled in the case... but I'd personally like to just get empty inside for cheaper shipping and not have to deal with fake unknown cells... basically just getting the extrusions to do with as I please.

As for e-bike / bicycle sales in general, until cities have infrastructure that is safe to use, uptake is going to be difficult. Take Miami.. there are over a thousand fatalities a year here for pedestrians and bicyclists. Primarily because drivers do not follow the road laws and are completely distracted. We're only behind Orlando, Tampa, and Jacksonville. First out state area behind us Memphis then Houston. Definitely what has prompted me to not really take it up until they recently put in a wide sidewalk for the half-mile stretch that, while signed 40MPH, is minimum 50... most 60+. It is a shame, since even with cost of cells and electricity out the wall, its about third that cost per mile of my car. Of course, rain doesn't help.

You can buy he cases. I build my own packs, all parts are available! There is a good book on building!

 

[Gordon Hawkins]

I'm thinking more about drill and tool batteries, my first try in this game is with 14.4v Bosch ncd, now I know this will sound ambitious and amateur, but there was a good video on YouTube of a chap who used 18v ones that clipped to the frame like a V6 setup.(I will find the link)

I have 3 x 14.4v and they are only 1.5ah, getting 46volts on average, I only need it once or twice to go up a steep hill which is 300meters....wondering if my experiments will work.

 

[Alex M]

I'm thinking more about drill and tool batteries, my first try in this game is with 14.4v Bosch ncd, now I know this will sound ambitious and amateur, but there was a good video on YouTube of a chap who used 18v ones that clipped to the frame like a V6 setup.(I will find the link)
...
I have 3 x 14.4v and they are only 1.5ah, getting 46volts on average, I only need it once or twice to go up a steep hill which is 300meters....wondering if my experiments will work.

He put a tremendous amount of work in this. Looks a bit odd, though this is a matter of taste. I saw few other videos with batteries from cordless drill, those looked downright ugly .

Those 3 little batteries will give you only about 60 WH. This is nothing. For a very modest 300 WH bank you'll need 15 of them. The total cost will be about the same as buying a normal ebike battery.

Edit-PS: by all means, install those 3 batteries if you don't need them for your tools. It should be enough for a few 300m hills - though not much more.

 

[Gordon Hawkins]

I'm think of a clever setup, so I can just plug them into a frame, easy to unplug and recharge, I'm working on keeping the folding bike Raleigh Boardwalk below 18kg, and if the plan works, I'm thinking of buying higher Ah ones and run a bank of 6.

They are cheap to source on eBay, and ones that need repairs are easy to fix.

 

[tomjasz]

If you read the build, fabricating the connections was hugely expensive!

 

[Brant Huddleston]

Not trying to be negative, but a part of this issue is consumer ignorance which is normal with a new category. I would expect that many ebike buyers are first time buyers who aren't aware of this issue. Part of the problem (and again no offense meant) are reviews that go on and on about the beauty and stealth factor of batteries that are in the frame or otherwise non-standard and how "clean" a bike looks with integrated controllers and so forth. I wish reviews would do a better job of pointing out that when the battery or controller dies - and they do die, replacing some of these is either impossible or, at the very least, takes someone with a fair amount of technical knowledge. I bought my first ebike partly based on a review that praised the in-frame battery - now I basically have a piece of junk since the manufacturer makes no replacement parts (and many times the manufacturer won't even be be business). This is even worse with ebikes were many bike shops won't work on a brand that they don't sell. You can't expect the manufacturer to care or help because it's in their self interest to lock you into their proprietary system. The only market force that would make a difference is if customers refused to buy bikes that weren't built with easy to replace modules and rewarded the companies that made them. When I purchased my second ebike I purposely selected the SS-Glide precisely because the review complained about how the battery was kind of generic and the bms controller was a separate module. People who buy electric cars at least are concerned about the price and availability of the batteries. Part of the problem is that companies like Apple have brainwashed people into believing that it makes sense to buy items where a critical part with a short life span has been made non-user replaceable. Besides being ecologically abhorrent, as someone pointed out that may make some sense in a product that costs less and where technological progress makes it quickly obsolete but in a bike which could last for years it's absurd. You can think of ebikes as being a "green" solution but if they end up in a landfill in a few years because the battery has died and can't be replaced it would have been greener to drive a car. And yes, it's possible to ride an ebike manually after the electrical system is gone - but considering a lot of these bikes weigh 50 pounds or more it's not very pleasant to do so.

You have perfectly described the problem. While @Tora Harris may find 99% of his (current) customers don't care, I suspect the mainstream buyer (like me) cares very much.

 

[Brant Huddleston]

What do you guys think of the following idea? How would you improve upon it?

Establish a trusted, non-profit third party entity modeled on the same principles as the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), which was established in the Great Depression to restore public trust in US banks. I will call this new entity LBIC, for the LEVA Battery Insurance Corporation. Here’s how LBIC would work:

— Manufacturers would voluntarily submit specifications of their batteries (form factor, interface specs, etc) to an LBIC battery bank, where they would be stored in escrow for at least 50 years. In return, the manufacture would get a “Insured by LBIC” certificate they can use to market their bikes, similar in purpose to the “Insured by FDIC” seal we see on US Banks. Manufacturers would otherwise not be required to comply with any battery standards — they would be free to build battery packs in any way, shape, or form, and compete in the open market based on their inventiveness and delivered value.

— The promise to the consumer would be this: If at any time during the life of your e-bike you are unable to purchase a replacement battery from the original manufacturer, or from the aftermarket, LBIC will release the specifications of your bike’s battery to an LBIC certified battery manufacturer who will fabricate and sell the battery to you at market rates determined by dollars per Wh.

— LBIC would be funded by an annual fee paid by each participating manufacturer.

Thoughts?

 

[indianajo]

Exactly why I bought a battery from Amazon & ebay, not a complete bike. The custom connector racket is one I am familiar with in factories. A supplier patents a custom connector, he has a good product, you are married to him for the next decade whatever his price increases are. Else pull 18" of "included" cable through the conduit while the line is stopped. Complete e-bikes have the conduit problem; the cable is run through the frame, then sealed in.
My first Amazon supplied battery came with bare wires. I put 30 A bullet connectors on it, $2.99 each pack of 20 from the auto supply, that matched my controller input. Male & female won't short to each other if one of each is used. Unfortunately btr were selling reject batteries, despite how completely they were specified. Production date was 4815. Voltage failed after 11 miles. It had charged up at 2 amps from 51 to 58.5 in 20 minutes so probably only one stack was welded when I got it. Amazon got my money back in my account in 1 day, no return required.
Next battery from sun-ebike of China, came with some forklift looking connector from andnsn which I promptly misplaced the included mate to . I cut it off and crimped .157 bullet terminals on it (use a Klein tool for reliability). Bullets connectors have been available at most auto supplies for 60 years, 57 Fords were wired with them. The dorman ones are good for 30 amps (my test on ignition circuit of a car). No patent involved. The sun-ebike 15 AH 48v battery got me 60 miles discharging from 60.5 to 48 v, before the power wheel or controller failed. Still 5 bars on the controller battery sign. So I'm out $220, with a good battery compatible with nearly everything.
My Jolly Roger Pirate e-bike will roll again next spring, after more shopping - in the $200-400 category. Maybe the Luna motors are really worth the extra $100. Maybe the transistors in the controller weren't bonded to the beautiful AL extrusion case, (which didn't get warm) and I can fix it for $10 with a soldering iron and some FETs salvaged from TV's.

 

[Asher]

What do you guys think of the following idea? How would you improve upon it?

Establish a trusted, non-profit third party entity modeled on the same principles as the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), which was established in the Great Depression to restore public trust in US banks. I will call this new entity LBIC, for the LEVA Battery Insurance Corporation. Here’s how LBIC would work:

— Manufacturers would voluntarily submit specifications of their batteries (form factor, interface specs, etc) to an LBIC battery bank, where they would be stored in escrow for at least 50 years. In return, the manufacture would get a “Insured by LBIC” certificate they can use to market their bikes, similar in purpose to the “Insured by FDIC” seal we see on US Banks. Manufacturers would otherwise not be required to comply with any battery standards — they would be free to build battery packs in any way, shape, or form, and compete in the open market based on their inventiveness and delivered value.

— The promise to the consumer would be this: If at any time during the life of your e-bike you are unable to purchase a replacement battery from the original manufacturer, or from the aftermarket, LBIC will release the specifications of your bike’s battery to an LBIC certified battery manufacturer who will fabricate and sell the battery to you at market rates determined by dollars per Wh.

— LBIC would be funded by an annual fee paid by each participating manufacturer.

Thoughts?

Recreating the battery might prove too costly, if there are few people demanding replacements. However, companies may already be required to provide specifications to independent repair facilities, California Civil Code:

(b) Every manufacturer making an express warranty with respect to an electronic or appliance product described in subdivision (h) , (i) , (j) , or (k) of Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code , with a wholesale price to the retailer of one hundred dollars ($100) or more, shall make available to service and repair facilities sufficient service literature and functional parts to effect the repair of a product for at least seven years after the date a product model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the seven-year period exceeds the warranty period for the product.

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/civil-code/civ-sect-1793-03.html

 

[Alex M]

What do you guys think of the following idea? How would you improve upon it?

Establish a trusted, non-profit third party entity modeled on the same principles as the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), which was established in the Great Depression to restore public trust in US banks. I will call this new entity LBIC, for the LEVA Battery Insurance Corporation. Here’s how LBIC would work:

— Manufacturers would voluntarily submit specifications of their batteries (form factor, interface specs, etc) to an LBIC battery bank...

99.......9% of ebike batteries are made in China. Please forgive me my mistrust, but I would not rely on any government or non-government insurer-like party in this country. Wouldn't put much trust in their submitted specs if such a party would have been established in the US or Europe, either.

The burden of warranty and post-warranty service would rest on local US and European sellers and brand-owners. They "might" establish this kind of insurer, but then the pains of dealing with Chinese batteries will be passed onto consumer in a form of increased costs. With ebike brands coming and going like flood waters in spring (even within one brand, models change every 1 or 2 years) - same is going on with batteries. Unfortunately.