750W geared hub motor bikes? Ride1Up LMTD, Juiced CCS2 or more?

[MikeL]

Hello,

Nice to meet you all! This is my first post.
I live is SF Bay Area and I recently bought Ride1Up 500 ebike for my wife and now want to get one for myself.
500 seems to be a great bike. I am OK with almost all of the components and wouldn't want to pay extra for better ones except for the motor.
We plan to do some light trail riding with some moderate hills in addition to flat paved roads. I tested R1U 500 on some small hills in the local park. About 30 degrees steep (more than I would encounter on the trails). The bike does OK when I both pedal and use full throttle. And this is how we intend to use the bikes - mostly pedal and use the motor when going uphill. I think 500 should be just fine for my wife, but I am about 60lbs heavier and some extra power would be helpful.
It looks like all decent mid-drive bikes cost more than 2k and I don't want to go that direction. 750W geared hub motor will probably be just fine for my needs.
LMTD costs $700 more than 500 and the only difference between them that I care about is the motor. Better brakes are nice, but not necessary. And I really don't care about color display and integrated battery.
Juiced CrossCurrent S2 is similar to LMTD and $100 cheaper, but I lean towards LMTD because it is 5lbs lighter, has better brakes and slightly wider tires (but not too wide).
CCS2 has torque sensor, but it is not very important for me. I might just use throttle instead of assist mode.
Are there any cheaper ebikes with 750W motors or better? or maybe just better alternatives for under $2k? Lower quality components might be OK. Fixing/replacing things is fine.
I would love to buy a version of R1U 500 with 750W motor for about $1.5k, but it does not exist
I also considered buying a conversion kit and building my own bike. I am an engineer and In some way building things is even more interesting for me than riding, but I don't have much time these days.

 

[ElevenAD]

i think prolonged 30degree climbs could be enough to heat up and shut down a hub motor especially with a heavier rider!? i could be wrong but there are some guys here who will know for sure! The Juiced is a really sweet bike but if i lived in San Fran i would only buy middrives, just to many hills. The EBR reviewer was able to over heat the Juiced Ripcurrent S with prolonged steep climbing, i think with a middrive you could grannygear most climbs with no issue.

 

[MikeL]

i think prolonged 30degree climbs could be enough to heat up and shut down a hub motor especially with a heavier rider!? i could be wrong but there are some guys here who will know for sure! The Juiced is a really sweet bike but if i lived in San Fran i would only buy middrives, just to many hills. The EBR reviewer was able to over heat the Juiced Ripcurrent S with prolonged steep climbing, i think with a middrive you could grannygear most climbs with no issue.

I am afraid you might be right. I said "750W geared hub will be enough", but I meant "I hope it will be"
We do not ride that often and I will try to find some trails without prolonged steep climbing. Two decent mid-drive bikes would cost more than I would like to spend at this time. At least that's what I think after doing some research. Too many expensive hobbies...

 

[indianajo]

I ride >80 hills, some 15%, with a 500 w advertised Mac12t hub motor. The sticker on the motor says "48 v 1000 w". It is not the grade that overheats a hub motor, it is the length of the grade. No 1000' rises in an hour. I carry <80 lb cargo on that trip, with tools racks bags stand & water gross weight 330 lb. I have my hub motor on the front. I've had it since 9/2019. Before that I had an ebikeling 1300 W geared hub motor, that wore out the gears in ~4500 miles. Vendors quit selling 48v 1000 w geared hub motors because 90% of users live in California, Oregon, Washington, BC & ALberta, and take their bike out to climb tall mountains the 2nd or 3rd trip.
BTW, my 8 speed chain lasts 5000 miles. Try that on a bosch.
I'm happy with 160 mm cable pull disk brakes. Can throw myself off the seat with them if a deer jumps out at the bottom of a hill.

 

[AHicks]

Regarding that DIY plan....

A Bafang BBSHD mid drive, installed in a suitable donor bike (one that's equipped with disk brakes!!!) might help keep the costs for a VERY healthy amount of power in check. BBSHD is just about the most power available, AND it's in the form of a mid drive, giving it a lot of versatility. Controller is built in, and it's a good one. That's keeps a lot of the wiring and connections under control, making something that looks like a production bike much easier to accomplish.

Even when figuring a pretty decent battery in the cost ($$$), I think something like that could be done pretty easily on your budget.....

 

[MikeL]

&5

I ride >80 hills, some 15%, with a 500 w advertised Mac12t hub motor. The sticker on the motor says "48 v 1000 w". It is not the grade that overheats a hub motor, it is the length of the grade. No 1000' rises in an hour. I carry <80 lb cargo on that trip, with tools racks bags stand & water gross weight 330 lb. I have my hub motor on the front. I've had it since 9/2019. Before that I had an ebikeling 1300 W geared hub motor, that wore out the gears in ~4500 miles. Vendors quit selling 48v 1000 w geared hub motors because 90% of users live in California, Oregon, Washington, BC & ALberta, and take their bike out to climb tall mountains the 2nd or 3rd trip.
BTW, my 8 speed chain lasts 5000 miles. Try that on a bosch.
I'm happy with 160 mm cable pull disk brakes. Can throw myself off the seat with them if a deer jumps out at the bottom of a hill.

This sounds encouraging. I decided to get another Ride1Up with hub motor for now and possibly build some DIY ebike based on mid-drive conversion kit later. My wife wants to ride the bikes now. DIY stuff would take some time.
We often hike in the are where we plan to ride the bikes. There are some steep parts of the road, but they are not super long. Mostly in the beginning. There might be some parking lots at higher elevations. Once you get into the hills, the trails consist of short up/down/flat sections. It might be OK.

 

[MikeL]

Regarding that DIY plan....

A Bafang BBSHD mid drive, installed in a suitable donor bike (one that's equipped with disk brakes!!!) might help keep the costs for a VERY healthy amount of power in check. BBSHD is just about the most power available, AND it's in the form of a mid drive, giving it a lot of versatility. Controller is built in, and it's a good one. That's keeps a lot of the wiring and connections under control, making something that looks like a production bike much easier to accomplish.

Even when figuring a pretty decent battery in the cost ($$$), I think something like that could be done pretty easily on your budget.....

I spent the whole night reading about these Bafang BBS02B and BBSHD mid-drive conversion kits, watching install videos, etc. These kits are amazing.
Originally I researched only hub motor kits. They usually come with 500W geared hub motor or maybe 1500 direct drive. My old bikes might not be suitable for conversion because of very thin dropouts (dangerous to file them to fit the axle). Maybe need to buy new frame or whole bike. Batteries are still expensive. DIY ebike with rear hub motor might cost me almost the same as assembled Ride1Up and it would not climb hills much better.
I thought that mid-drives are hard to install. I thought I would need some sturdy custom bracket for the motor and it might not work well with my specific frames. It might be hard to align and properly tension motor drive and I would have a very unreliable bike. But Bafang kits are great! The motor and drive are already assembled and aligned. They mount to standard bracket and the mount is universal.
And you get a DIY ebike with climbing power that you cannot find in assembled bikes for over $2k.
I can probably buy a battery bracket and use my Ride1Up 48V battery to power DIY bike. I have 3 old low-end mountain bikes. Maybe they are OK for the 1st DIY attempt. Not sure if I can install disk brakes since the frames do not have mounting posts and the wheel hubs might not be compatible with rotors. Need to research. It might be a fun little project. I don't mind spending money on DIY stuff even if I alredy paid for assembled ebike.

 

[AHicks]

Just another thought .... one with a little less DIY...

In the process of sorting a new "go to" bike to replace one I've been riding the last few years, one that's powered by a nearly unstoppable aftermarket 1000w MAC 12t geared rear hub. New bike (Espin Sport) is a 500w geared hub, and it's 15lbs lighter than the old bike. I installed an aftermarket KT controller that's very adjustable by the end user. Nearly identical to the popular Bolton kit popular with the RAD bike crowd. Without going in to all of the details right now (willing, just ask), this controller lets me feed 1000w to the 500, which will handle that kind of abuse just fine, but only for a few seconds. This makes a 500w motor feel pretty "sporty", even if it's just for a few seconds (too long will overheat it). Enough to cross a busy road with confidence, just as it's able to climb a short hill.....

So the thought is, ride you're new bike until you get mad at the amount of power available the way it comes, knowing there's a kit like this available - as long as you're OK with some wiring and maybe some soldering work. Once installed, the new controller will be rock solid. Check into what the guys riding Bolton kits think of theirs. -Al

 

[MikeL]

Just another thought .... one with a little less DIY...

In the process of sorting a new "go to" bike to replace one I've been riding the last few years, one that's powered by a nearly unstoppable aftermarket 1000w MAC 12t geared rear hub. New bike (Espin Sport) is a 500w geared hub, and it's 15lbs lighter than the old bike. I installed an aftermarket KT controller that's very adjustable by the end user. Nearly identical to the popular Bolton kit popular with the RAD bike crowd. Without going in to all of the details right now (willing, just ask), this controller lets me feed 1000w to the 500, which will handle that kind of abuse just fine, but only for a few seconds. This makes a 500w motor feel pretty "sporty", even if it's just for a few seconds (too long will overheat it). Enough to cross a busy road with confidence, just as it's able to climb a short hill.....

So the thought is, ride you're new bike until you get mad at the amount of power available the way it comes, knowing there's a kit like this available - as long as you're OK with some wiring and maybe some soldering work. Once installed, the new controller will be rock solid. Check into what the guys riding Bolton kits think of theirs. -Al

Thank you! That is the plan. We will ride our new bikes for now and I might try DIY stuff if they don't have enough power or if I get bored.
I do have some knowledge about motors/controllers in general. I used to write firmware for low-power motor controllers at work and I spent a few years building radio control (RC) models. Also built/modified a couple of small electric scooters long time ago. But I don't have any knowledge about specific bike motors or bikes in general. Things like how long specific 500W rated motor can survive if you push it to 1000W. Can typical inexpensive motor controllers really handle advertized current? Can some no-name Li-ion battery (from ebay, amazon, aliexpress) handle sustained 25A discharge ? Or even something simple like what it takes to install disc brakes on old bike that was not designed for it. Froums and articles on the internet are very helpful.

 

[AHicks]

My disk brake equipped bike would come that way. I'll leave welding/modding frames for that purpose to others.

Honestly, that's one of the big reasons I like to modify the daylights an inexpensive e-bike with good bones. I look for something with a decent frame (w/brakes) and battery and I can take it from there. Geared hub motors pre-laced to wheels of the correct size aren't THAT expensive on the aftermarket - if you need one. Controllers w/displays like I was talking about above are a hundred bucks....

You're R1U, the Espins, and RAD's are great example of sturdy inexpensive bikes built with parts you can buy at Amazon. Ride and modify to your heart's content!

You have the perfect background to get seriously hooked on this stuff.

The hardware is generally good. The problem with controllers used on many production bikes is the firmware. It's locked down and very poorly engineered by folks that have never ridden a bike, I swear. The first time you ride a bike with a Bolton kit (which is a KT controller/display) you're going to come away with a big grin. The Bafang Mid drives, with their built in controllers, are even nicer.

Check out Luna and Grin. Both are great aftermarket suppliers.

Grin has a motor simulator tool that's generally considered as super accurate. Worth messing with as it's able to predict things like performance curves - and how long it would take to cook a 500w motor being fed 1000w.....

Plug in the motor of your choice (or something close) pick out some variables, and hit the simulate button. Open system B to run 2 motors or sets of variables side by side...... That'll entertain you for a while! -Al

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

 

[MikeL]

I am not planning to do any frame modding either. I thought maybe there is some kind of clamp mount for disc calipers. Plus new wheel. I want disc brake on the rear wheel. Maybe getting another used bike will be easier.

I will check out these suppliers and calculator tool. Thanks!

 

[GenXrider]

My Ride1Up 700 will do 1000 watts with the stock controller - I think that's true of the 500 as well. Go into the advanced settings of the display and change the highest PAS to 100%. My 700 came with PAS 5 (of 5) defaulted to 70% and PAS 9 (of 9) defaulted to 82%. I changed to the 0 to 9 range and set PAS 9 to 100%, and with a good charge on the battery, it will do 1000 watts (display actually reads to 999). I normally never use PAS 9, but I did today for maybe 10 seconds to help fly up a hill fast when trying to get home before the rain hit (only got rained on a little). My battery was down to 47 volts or so, so it was reading around 960 watts at that time. The 700's KD218 display, which is also used on the LMTD, always shows the power output in realtime. Warning - don't run it at that amount of power for too long, especially with a heavy load on the bike.

Edited to add: With throttle only, the maximum is power is lower, maybe 850 watts with a well charged battery. I hardly use the throttle, mostly for just assistng at getting the bike moving from a stop.

 

[RunForTheHills]

I am not planning to do any frame modding either. I thought maybe there is some kind of clamp mount for disc calipers. Plus new wheel. I want disc brake on the rear wheel. Maybe getting another used bike will be easier.

I will check out these suppliers and calculator tool. Thanks!

You could replace the front fork with a disc ready fork. You should be using your front brakes for most of your braking anyway. They do sell adapters to mount a disk brake to the rear dropouts, but I wouldn't trust one or use one. Unless you are planning to ride really fast or stop on long steep downhills with a lot of weight, rim brakes will work fine. They have been stopping bikes for over 100 years. If you really need disc brakes, then buying a used hardtail mountain bike on Craigslist would definitely be easier. You can find them for $400-$500.

 

[MikeL]

My Ride1Up 700 will do 1000 watts with the stock controller - I think that's true of the 500 as well. Go into the advanced settings of the display and change the highest PAS to 100%. My 700 came with PAS 5 (of 5) defaulted to 70% and PAS 9 (of 9) defaulted to 82%. I changed to the 0 to 9 range and set PAS 9 to 100%, and with a good charge on the battery, it will do 1000 watts (display actually reads to 999). I normally never use PAS 9, but I did today for maybe 10 seconds to help fly up a hill fast when trying to get home before the rain hit (only got rained on a little). My battery was down to 47 volts or so, so it was reading around 960 watts at that time. The 700's KD218 display, which is also used on the LMTD, always shows the power output in realtime. Warning - don't run it at that amount of power for too long, especially with a heavy load on the bike.

Edited to add: With throttle only, the maximum is power is lower, maybe 850 watts with a well charged battery. I hardly use the throttle, mostly for just assistng at getting the bike moving from a stop.

Good information. Do you know if max throttle current can be adjusted as well?

 

[MikeL]

You could replace the front fork with a disc ready fork. You should be using your front brakes for most of your braking anyway. They do sell adapters to mount a disk brake to the rear dropouts, but I wouldn't trust one or use one. Unless you are planning to ride really fast or stop on long steep downhills with a lot of weight, rim brakes will work fine. They have been stopping bikes for over 100 years. If you really need disc brakes, then buying a used hardtail mountain bike on Craigslist would definitely be easier. You can find them for $400-$500.

Thanks!
I still can't force myself to use front brake much. I guess it tells you something about my biking skills

 

[ElevenAD]

Regarding that DIY plan....

A Bafang BBSHD mid drive, installed in a suitable donor bike (one that's equipped with disk brakes!!!) might help keep the costs for a VERY healthy amount of power in check. BBSHD is just about the most power available, AND it's in the form of a mid drive, giving it a lot of versatility. Controller is built in, and it's a good one. That's keeps a lot of the wiring and connections under control, making something that looks like a production bike much easier to accomplish.

Even when figuring a pretty decent battery in the cost ($$$), I think something like that could be done pretty easily on your budget.....

i just purchased a BBSHD with this goal in mind! i think i could put something together that rides really nice without breaking the bank! OP cant go wrong with that motor!

 

[GenXrider]

Good information. Do you know if max throttle current can be adjusted as well?

On the 700 with the KD218 display, you can limit the throttle top speed from 11 to 28 mph. The 500 and Core-5 use a different display, and I don't know if they have that option. However, more specific to what you asked, there is no max current setting specific to throttle that can be adjusted, but you can press very lightly on the throttle to limit the power/current delivered. As mentioned, full throttle alone is already less than the maximum power you can get from 100% PAS.

 

[MikeL]

Second R1U arrived today. Both of them were delivered within 2-3 days after ordering. Their warehouse is just a few hundred miles away.
I assembled the bike,charged the batteries, loaded both bikes into SUV since my hitch rack has not arrived yet, and we went to the trail.
I forgot both batteries at home
So we had to bike the old fashioned way. The bikes work. At least mechanically.

 

[ElevenAD]

Second R1U arrived today. Both of them were delivered within 2-3 days after ordering. Their warehouse is just a few hundred miles away.
I assembled the bike,charged the batteries, loaded both bikes into SUV since my hitch rack has not arrived yet, and we went to the trail.
I forgot both batteries at home
So we had to bike the old fashioned way. The bikes work. At least mechanically.

Oh no way lol, i would have turned right around! It's been to many years of E-Biking for that lol.

 

[MikeL]

I had a few issues with my R1Up LMTD. Replaced defective battery and burned controller. I now carry a spare controller with me in the rear bag. Apparently it is rated 11A nominal current and LMTD can easily draw 20A. LMTD is a nice bike, but I decided to use it for mostly flat roads and finally finished my DIY BBSHD build. Well, almost finished.

2012 Trek Wahoo MTB (Large frame, 29" wheels, 2.1" tires
- BBSHD mid-drive motor.
- Eggrider v2 display.
- 48v 14Ah Reention Eel pro battery from another ebike (mounted under rear rack).
- Sunrace 8 speed cassette 11-40T.
- Lekkie 42T narrow-wide chainring.
- Original Shimano deraileur and 8 speed shifter.
- Deraileur hanger extender.
- 180mm front rotor, 160mm rear.
- TRP Hy/Rd front brake (hydraulic, but actuated by cable).
- Tektro mechanical rear brake.
- Suspension seatpost, stem riser, kickstand.

I tested it on some hills (photo attached) in a local park yesterday. Very impressive even with "moderate power" programming.