48v or 52v battery for current BBSHD builds

[George S.]

"Some of the throttles are terrible. You can't tune the throttles or the speed controls decently."

With a CA V.3 you can and more. Not a cheap part but I have found it essential to better understanding what the capabilities of my bike are in regards to range and tracking my wh/mi. You can tune your throttle parameters and enable cruise control easily. I use a standard cheap thumb throttle and have put it through some water torture and it keeps working but I think that there could be a better one that is thinner, fits different bar diameters and definitely waterproof made for sure. View attachment 12597

Pardon the clunky throttle mount. I feel the placement is right where it is, just need to get a better solution going than a chunk of handlebar, some bar end plugs, a washer and zip ties covered in electrical tape. Anybody out there have a 3D printer?

Hi,

I use some high amperage displays I get on Amazon for watts and watt hours. That's set up. I bought a Bluetooth setup for the GM MP5, but it's been kind of a bust. For most of my riding, where the road is smooth enough, the speed control works of. There are things that should be accessories for the Golden Motors, mostly PAS stuff, but it's poorly thought out. I hate throwing money at a problem. Nothing is ever perfect. If I need the CA it's going to end up on three ebikes. Bit too much. They should make the Bluetooth and the app and the controller programming work.

I'm not sure how to make ebikes work for people. In 2010, when oil was high, a lot of people were pushing transportation alternatives. But it's a hard sell in the West, and the momentum seems to have vanished around here.

The big thing to me is battery prices. Musk/Tesla are now saying their cell cost on the Reno facility is around $125 per kWh. That means a cell cost for an ebike, basic, is around $70. You can't get that cost, now, but a price is a price and it has to filter down eventually. With these bigger Tesla cells, you do a few spot welds, add some control circuitry and a case, and what does it cost?

I see a huge mass market for very basic bikes and very basic power systems. That has to take off, I think, before you can sell a lot of refined bikes. There are bike purists who bring the road bike fanatic mindset to ebikes, endless refinement with very little payoff for real basic riders. And there are performance junkies who can't stop pushing everything beyond what normal people, generally 50 and up, need. They see a cheap thrill. I see a long hospital stay.

Thanks!

 

[flymeaway]

They see a cheap thrill. I see a long hospital stay.

LOL....that's for sure!

Court J.

 

[tomjasz]

For the first year and a half I moved a CA3 between bikes. I found I didn't really "need" it once I had some sense of how the motor performed. Since then I've added a second CA3 to my primary cold weather bike along with the dial Grin introduced. Making changes on the fly is kinda cool. Again not needed but cold weather battery management is a bit more finicky and I'm really liking the bike the experts scoff at. A weighted front drive with a studded tire for icy days. On a flat foot Trek Pure. 3 speed coaster brake. An astonishingly comfortable and great preforming simple MXUS 1000W hub drive.

My primary summer ride has a CA2.3 I picked up for next to nothing as a part of a bundle. Bafang does a poor job of metering. My snow bike will have a BattMan. An interesting if overpriced wattmeter from the Luna boys. Kinda cool since it cn be wired in to only come on when the display is turned on.

 

[tomjasz]

LOL....that's for sure!

Court J.

I see regulations and lawsuits.

 

[George S.]

I see regulations and lawsuits.

Maybe people will just accept that high watts really are motorcycles, and accept that structure. If you want high power, on the street, it's called a Zero.

 

[John46]

Yeah but the industry has never seen this kind of stuff before....

I will leave DIY out of it because obviously i have a vested interst.

But rad to go and their 1500 dollar bikes, the new juiced riders cross current 1k bike, the sondors line of 700 dollars bike......absolute game changers.

who in their right mind is buying 5k bikes in the usa designed for the european market? 5k bikes that go 20mph at best.....

the industry is in termoil...and what you see is a shifting from the old guard to the new guard.....

and the new way is better....more affordable bettter bikes that are more easily repairable...... no more BS......

Interchangeable components are the key in all of the above bikes......

and its about to get way better and cheaper... and to be honest all the existing players are terrified.

Sorry to say it....but bosch will have to go back to selling dish washers....atleasat in this country.

Bosch dishwasher are crap! You have to dry the washed dishes by hand because of some energy saving feature that doesn't work.

 

[tomjasz]

Funny, there were no eBikes in any of the 6 bike shops in the area. One Trek dealer brought in 6 Bosch and Yamaha bikes and they sold out. BANG gone. Some see the value. Not everyone wants to build and be a follower. I rather like the bikes, but didn't much like my Bosch appliance either. The market will decide. But watching the bikes fly out of Lennies and the aggressive marketing by them and several others, it's obvious there's more to come in the next year.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I have the 52 volts / 13.5 amp-hours (702 w-hr) shark pack from Luna. I placed a rough tabulation, on the frame, of the power consumption and battery span (in hours) charted against assist level so I can can have a good idea on how I can minimize the risk of running out of juice.

At Assist level 2, I was doing 20-22 mph, so that would indicate I can reach 40-44 miles at that speed and assist level in one charge. That's about 16.7 whr/mile of power consumption.

 

[Rick Imby]

Several issues at play here folks.

1. The crowdfunding bikes are 40% cheaaper because they are paid for before they are built and no retailers are involved.

2. The elimination of dealer margin makes everything much less expensive. Most retail businesses (brick and Mortar) need at least 35% margin to barely stay in business. Retail businesses pay a lot to stay in business. I know, I owned a bike shop for 30+ years. Most years I lost money 5 or 6 months of the year. Luckily I did pretty well in the good months.

3. I just spent 1k on a bbs02 and battery from Luna. Luna basically is a Wholesale outfit. If you figure 2 hours at a shop to install --$100 and 35% margin for the retailer $1538 you get a retail price of $1650. Add that to the price of a $1500 bike and you are over 3k for a nice electric bike.


I just signed a contract to have a new house built. $80k in materials and 80k in labor.

 

[Rick Imby]

The Avid cyclists who are buying $4k bicycles is not at this time interested in $4k electric bikes.

There are big advantages for Europeans to be buying $4k electric bikes over motorcycles. They get to ride on bike paths which they cannot do with a motorcycle or a moped, they can store it inside like a bicycle. They are really inexpensive to use.

This is not much of an advantage at this point in most parts of the US where people live farther from work and have their whole personna tied to what car they drive.

 

[flymeaway]

The Avid cyclists who are buying $4k bicycles is not at this time interested in $4k electric bikes.

That's changing. I'm a good example. Living in a hilly region in New Hampshire and over my prime bicycling years, riding a bike for pleasure or exercise, began putting tremendous strain on my body, particularly knees. So I did give up my pedal bike for ebiking and it has made a substantial difference in my fitness and health. I'm physically more fit today then I was in my 50's because of ebiking. I also commute 28 miles round trip (when the roads aren't snow covered) which equates to about 7+ months on average 4 times a week. On weekends I bike with my wife, who almost never rode a bike because she's smaller and less capable of grinding it up grades and keeping pace. Enter the ebike and she now can ride with me anywhere, so we generally do a ride both Saturday and Sunday. This never happened before we got into ebikes. So I went from almost never riding to about 4+ thousand miles a year. As all those eager beaver bikers hit their elder years they'll perhaps "see the light". I doubt the general population will ever see bikes as the alternative to cars; just ingrained in our car-centric culture. As for the $4K bike, you can end up with an incredible commuter bike:

Titanium Frame
BBS02 750W with 52v Luna Shark
Rohloff Speedhub

A great 46 lbs. bike for around $4K.

Court J.

 

[J.R.]

The Avid cyclists who are buying $4k bicycles is not at this time interested in $4k electric bikes.

There are big advantages for Europeans to be buying $4k electric bikes over motorcycles. They get to ride on bike paths which they cannot do with a motorcycle or a moped, they can store it inside like a bicycle. They are really inexpensive to use.

This is not much of an advantage at this point in most parts of the US where people live farther from work and have their whole personna tied to what car they drive.

I agree. I would also add, many EU states and/or employers operating there have schemes that either partially or fully pay citizens back for new bike or ebike purchases. That goes a long way encouraging new sales. That's true in the US for electric cars, but as Court J. notes, people here don't see any bike as transportation. Too many children brought up to ride the couch - gaming, not bikes.

 

[George S.]

https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/are-electric-bikes-really-transportation.3/#post-7

My first post here. I have less faith now ebikes can be car substitutes.

Trucks and SUVs are what sells. I'm in Quartzsite where the giant RV show is gearing up. I looked at 5th wheel double slide trailers yesterday. People buy trucks for that. Gas prices are down. A third of Americans have money.

There are tons of ATV's. I don't see why the ebike people don't aim for a bit of that market. You could sell ebikes to the RV owners.

I agree with @flymeaway that the aging population is the best. My brother has gone to an ebike. He used to hate the idea

 

[Rick Imby]

Funny, there were no eBikes in any of the 6 bike shops in the area. One Trek dealer brought in 6 Bosch and Yamaha bikes and they sold out. BANG gone. Some see the value. Not everyone wants to build and be a follower. I rather like the bikes, but didn't much like my Bosch appliance either. The market will decide. But watching the bikes fly out of Lennies and the aggressive marketing by them and several others, it's obvious there's more to come in the next year.

I think you will find many dealers scared to buy electric bikes that sell for $4k or so. I am pretty certain there are a few shops with a couple of 2 year old electric bikes sitting in a corner gathering dust. The next few years will be interesting.

 

[tomjasz]

I think you will find many dealers scared to buy electric bikes that sell for $4k or so. I am pretty certain there are a few shops with a couple of 2 year old electric bikes sitting in a corner gathering dust. The next few years will be interesting.

That's what I saw in 2014, but this year I saw Trek eBikes get sold. Not dozens, just a few. But more than had sold out of 6 shops in the previous 2 years. I'm pretty hopeful for the industry. Every time I go to the local farmers market, Minnesota today is 16F, I see a couple of young families with cargo bikes. There is a paradigm shift. Add aging boomers and I expect it will be a good year. More $1500-2000 bikes will push it.
As builders get honest, and reveal what a tricked out build really costs, they'll help drive the interest with less sticker shock. In 2014 I found few people that knew what an eBike was. I've watched another dozen appear in the small town I live in. This year we have a city council interested in expanding bike paths across the city. That's a huge step forward. As long as the builders on 40mph bikes don't act out on the streets... that's my biggest fear. More regulations when someone is hurt or someone is terrorized. I'm reading a New York Burrough is confiscating eBikes. The line between bike and motorcycle is being blurred.

 

[Rick Imby]

The cargo bike with a electric booster is the ultimate bike especially if you have hills around.

 

[Ann M.]

Cycling infrastructure and the vocal support of local bike groups does count towards successful cycling community growth. Austin just voted to invest $720 million in transportation with $120 million going to bike and pedestrian projects. Having ways for people to safely navigate within cities and regionally makes it more practical to utilize a bike as a commuter vehicle. For now, the majority of ebike sales are going to riders for health and pleasure. The increasing building density within our city, particularly focused near downtown and the bigger parks adds to the need for alternate forms of transportation.

@Rick Imby, as an electric bike dealer for 16 years, I know what these bikes cost, where the components come from and strongly disagree that the bikes are cheaper because they're crowd funded. No, the facts are that they are cheaper because they are using cheaper quality bike components including the frames, the motors, controllers & batteries. By the time you figure in shipping and lack of service or parts, they're not really a bargain. That's the illusion most of these folks want you to believe. Faraday Bikes was started with funding through Kickstarter but those are not cheap, $1K bikes, they are sophisticated, polished commuter ebikes...you get what you pay for. Those companies who funded initial production via the crowd funding route who decided to stick with it (not be a one time shot) went on to have other channels of distribution and provide support. They recognized that was vital to the long term success of their company and the industry as a whole.

 

[Rick Imby]

Cycling infrastructure and the vocal support of local bike groups does count towards successful cycling community growth. Austin just voted to invest $720 million in transportation with $120 million going to bike and pedestrian projects. Having ways for people to safely navigate within cities and regionally makes it more practical to utilize a bike as a commuter vehicle. For now, the majority of ebike sales are going to riders for health and pleasure. The increasing building density within our city, particularly focused near downtown and the bigger parks adds to the need for alternate forms of transportation.

@Rick Imby, as an electric bike dealer for 16 years, I know what these bikes cost, where the components come from and strongly disagree that the bikes are cheaper because they're crowd funded. No, the facts are that they are cheaper because they are using cheaper quality bike components including the frames, the motors, controllers & batteries. By the time you figure in shipping and lack of service or parts, they're not really a bargain. That's the illusion most of these folks want you to believe. Faraday Bikes was started with funding through Kickstarter but those are not cheap, $1K bikes, they are sophisticated, polished commuter ebikes...you get what you pay for. Those companies who funded initial production via the crowd funding route who decided to stick with it (not be a one time shot) went on to have other channels of distribution and provide support. They recognized that was vital to the long term success of their company and the industry as a whole.

Absolutely Ann M, I agree the crowd funded bikes are often cutting corners on their ebikes. The lack of support and the lack of warranty are a huge factor in why the bikes are significantly lower priced than dealer bikes.

Hopefully the flood of these often very low quality bikes will not turn off a lot of future users.

 

[tomjasz]

We're starting to see reports of budget batteries and some problems. Buyer beware. I now slow down, and save my dollars to ypgrade to batteries with FULL one year warranties. They are out there. Expect to pay 10-20% more, but I have two examples that are near 3 years old and a budget just 3 months to failure.

 

[Ron/Spinningmagnets]

Hi, this is Ron/spinningmagnets. I try to be as independent as possible, and to write information to help the average guy, because I am an average blue-collar guy. Bosch/Yamaha vs BBSHD...whats my opinion?

I have ridden a Bosch, and also the Yamaha (at two Interbike conventions). If you like that sort of thing, save a few bucks and get the Yamaha. I don't hate on the Bosch, but they charge a premium just because Europeans have a bias towards German products over Japanese. If you own a Bosch and are happy with it? sweet...let's ride together and have fun on a beautiful spring day. When armchair mechanics argue, it's just another Ford vs Chevy crap-fest.

Are you foolish for buying an expensive Bosch / Yamaha? No...there is a market for that. If you like it? Be happy, and don't waste time with regrets. That being said...I can afford anything I want, and my most often ridden ebike is an Electra stretch cruiser with a BBSHD. I went with a 52V battery pack because, the stock controller will work with 48V or 52V. A nominal 60V battery can produce a spark that can penetrate dry human skin, but 52V? no. I literally wrote the article on electricbike.com about benefits/drawbacks of a 14S pack.

If a friend of mine had to make a choice between a small 52V pack, or getting a much larger 48V pack? I'd say get the larger pack, there are a lot of reasons a bigger pack (regardless of vendor) is better for the owner. That being said, I own a very large 52V pack, and I can afford as many watt-hours as I like.

Bosch and Yamaha drives are very sophisticated and they are very similar. They take a small amount of input watts, and turn that into as much wheel-torque as possible. It is accomplished in a very smooth and sophisticated way. This is like the Mercedes, Porsche, BMW market...when they sell a 4-cylinder car (which they have done). Its nice when they are new and under warranty by a local shop, but...if you buy a 5-year-old one? what can an average blue-collar guy do to hack a cheap used 5-year-old M/P/B car?

I am an old gear-head (58-ish), and as a much as I appreciate a sophisticated aluminum 4-cylinder turbo 4-valve engine with EFI...when it comes to buying and wrenching on a motor? the BBSHD is the Chevy 350 of the Ebike world.

Use a thermal IR camera on it...it is not even breathing hard at 52V X 30A = 1500W. I would not run it at 3000W, but...it has been verified to run at 52V X 50A = 2600W, or...72V X 35A (using an external controller)...so...the mechanical portion of the drive can sustain 2600W. Will it wear out faster than when it is run at 1500W? If you ask that question, then...you don't understand what is going on.

If a certain customer is like an engineer, and he wants decent wheel torque at the lowest possible input watts...get the Yamaha mid drive. If you want LOT of fun, and you also want the ability to upgrade your fun-result in the future? Get the BBSHD. Also, get a spare primary reduction gear and a tube of high-quality grease, because...I am going to beat on mine like it is a rented mule. Try 2600W on a cheap drive unit and then tell me that it doesn't put a freakin smile on your face...