48v or 52v battery for current BBSHD builds

[Cameron Newland]

In response to some of the above discussion, Green Machine from Luna asked "who would be interested in purchasing a $5k 250/350 w ebike?" I would for one. I know the BBSHD will kick my butt but fit and finish mean something to me. I love the integrated look of the Haibikes, I love the smooth predictable power delivery of the bosch systems I have ridden. I like that the battery doesn't rattle. I also like that its legal. (I know- boo hiss) I also know that that my 500w ebike hub kit will smoke my friends nice EVO 29r, and the two bbshd's I have ridden will smoke my hubbie. but sometimes a rat bike just won't get it!

So Mr Ravi, or Mr Chris from Ny, what happens if I buy a Bosch drive unit and it fails? I'm 4 hrs from NY and Mr Luna has a point there's no service center on the corner. There are other dealers around but not many units in stock.

And Mr Luna, I have a nice $2k bike just waiting for a BBSHD but I'm very skeptical about the reliability of these kits, although I have no personal ownership experience.
Its not personal, but I like the Germans better then the Chinese.

I've owned both retail ebikes and DIY ebikes. I recently bought a BBSHD and a 52V shark pack battery from Lunacycle and it's been very reliable, and my 13.5Ah Luna battery gives me way more range than the 8.7Ah pack that came with my retail ebike did, so I hardly ever ride my old ebike anymore. I've put less than 1000 miles on my new BBSHD bike, so my experience is purely anecdotal and maybe we shouldn't draw conclusions from it, but I just thought I'd share my experiences.

I'd also generally prefer German motors to Chinese ones, however, I'm also the kind of guy who likes to maintain and repair his own bike, and the Bosch bikes and some other proprietary motor systems make it really hard to do. If something breaks on a Bosch bike and you're under warranty, then they'll replace that part for you, but if your warranty runs out, you might on your own and unable to buy replacement parts. I'm quite happy with my new DIY build even though it doesn't have a warranty because I know that if anything breaks, I can easily find replacement parts, and that kind of peace-of-mind is worth a lot to me.

 

[Shoestring]

Thank you Ravi, these are some of the very points that point me in this direction. The ebike thing for me is primarily fun first. Its ok to be the last man up the hill, you just might get to enjoy the sunset!

 

[Shoestring]

Yes Mr Newland, good points also, as you probably read I'm running a kit bike also for a lot of the same reasons. I would hate to have to pay out the butt for expensive repairs out of warrantee but that is life. It happens with my cars all the time!

 

[Green Machine]

LOL i own the bike in the picture that Ravi spent 3o minutes with....got it right in front of me. The b ike in the tiny pic above....you guys want a big pic of it? How about a video

I helped develop that bike and that drive..... i went back and forth with the bafang owner on what to name it..... Ravi got to ride the prototype bike for 30 minutes.... that is great.

The bafang engineers did not have it set up right at the innerbike show..... Raavi talks about how powerful it is ....but I know it was running on a 12s 46 volt batter and limited to 17 amps...... half of what a commen bbshd will run.

We are testing that bike now at a full 50 amps...... guess what? the torque sensor does not make a bit of difference at those power levels.

Torque sensor is just a gimmick to sale low power level bikes.

The great thing about bbshd is its more power than what you will probably ever need....so you can run it at lower power level...but have those higher power levels when needed.

i would rely on a bbshd way before i would rely on a bosch set up..... if you buy from luna cycle we are right here and we can repair any drive.... the failure rate is very low.

Ravi admits now he works for a place that sales bosch bikes..... he also admits they cannot repair it...they just take it off and send it to someone who can..... my question is.... is that someone in europe?

Its a 250 watt system...by nature it will be more reliable than a 1500 watt system....run the bbsdh on a 20 amp setting it will last you 10 years.

ONce you go with a bbshd you are never going to spend the money it cost to buy a bosch bike.....

and luna offers BBSHD with exclusive upgraded controllers running at 2500 watts... for off road use only.

Give it a couple of years and see where the cards lie..... in a year or two i would bet the house the Bosch drives will be completely obsoltete in America.

Bosch is great for europe ...its hard sale in USA..... people like Ravi are fighthing uphill battle...

Americans love power...once you have good power in a bike you are never going back to less powerful and multiple times expensive.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

LOL i own the bike in the picture that Ravi spent 3o minutes with....got it right in front of me. The b ike in the tiny pic above....you guys want a big pic of it? How about a video

I helped develop that bike and that drive..... i went back and forth with the bafang owner on what to name it..... Ravi got to ride the prototype bike for 30 minutes.... that is great.
.

I am not sure this is Eric or Gus or Ronald Roberts...
You don't have to hide under an anonymous name

 

[Green Machine]

oh forgot to mention...i rode the new bosch drive at innerbike ...could not stand to spend 30 minutes with it but i would say i spent 10 minutes with it.....

my perception: Like Wearing a condom.....

once you had the real thing you arent ever going back to that....

I have rode many bikes at that power level through the years and they havent changed much.

 

[Green Machine]

Ravi,

Green Machine is my username on Endless SPhere...

It is also the name of the retail store i had in san francisco in 2001 that sold electric bikes.

Everyone in the ebike business knows that green machine is eric.....

you must be new to this

Its ok i understand. I have been ridinig electric bikes for a long time...and i have heard the sales pitch for years on low powered expensive bikes..... basically bad bikes with a lot of hype.....

I think everyone knows at this point i am serious about changing that..... i am not the one to bull s*it with low powered over priced hype.

 

[JRA]

I have spent the last 16 years following the growth of motor assist bikes, experimenting with different systems both gas and electric, joining in on the conversation via forums, trying all the different bikes I could get my leg over and waiting for the day when they would become accepted. The first 15 yrs. there has been slow, yet steady, development but now it is full speed Ah ead by both the manufacturers and the aftermarket kits. Is one better than the other or are they just different ways of achieving the same thing? An e bike. Some don't mind doing a little futzing to make it happen and others want integrated systems backed by dealers and warranties. There are more options now than ever and choice is key.

As the entry level price is low to high, and the ability to try all the different models in all parts of the country is not reliable at this time, means folks come to sites like this to help make up there minds by reading/watching the reviews. If they get as far as the forums and see the bickering like in this thread I don't see it being too helpful. There is enough negativity out there these days, lets all try and make e biking a positive experience.

And back to the OP's query soon I will be able to do a fairly direct comparison between 48 and 52v systems with basically the same motor and controller as I am interested myself to see what differences there are. That is why I am doing it. I don't mind futzing I guess. When I have an opinion I'll report back.

 

[Green Machine]

Yeah but the industry has never seen this kind of stuff before....

I will leave DIY out of it because obviously i have a vested interst.

But rad to go and their 1500 dollar bikes, the new juiced riders cross current 1k bike, the sondors line of 700 dollars bike......absolute game changers.

who in their right mind is buying 5k bikes in the usa designed for the european market? 5k bikes that go 20mph at best.....

the industry is in termoil...and what you see is a shifting from the old guard to the new guard.....

and the new way is better....more affordable bettter bikes that are more easily repairable...... no more BS......

Interchangeable components are the key in all of the above bikes......

and its about to get way better and cheaper... and to be honest all the existing players are terrified.

Sorry to say it....but bosch will have to go back to selling dish washers....atleasat in this country.

 

[George S.]

I love two of my DIY bikes. I love the motor on the third, the Mac, but the frame is wrong and there's no front suspension.

I used to want a Haibike, but I won't go along with the small and proprietary battery. People should argue about battery safety, but let's face it. You can weld a pack together, use a basic BMS, and make sure the case is decent. Beyond that, what are you buying in terms of safety, and what does it cost?

I'm camping out in the desert. I have solar to charge everything, including the ebike. The terrain is flat, but very uneven and very rocky. The cheap Trek 820 handles it very well, with Marathon MTB tires. (Golden MP5 rear). You need a 2.xx tire for bad terrain. I just plow through everything except deep gravel.

I noticed that Prodeco Tech and Lectric are both sponsoring Crowdfunders, basically for BMX bikes. This is what I love. New bikes or bikes from my early years with a power plant. I don't know if these things will catch on, but we need DIY outfits to partner and do crowdfunders where there is a higher level of trust.

Eric is right, the alt-ebikers are winning. I don't think Bosch will go away, but they shouldn't count on high priced bikes and proprietary systems for a lot of sales. But the power argument is self-defeating. If we lose 750 watt ebikes because 1500 to 3000 watt bikes create problems, then we are Europe.

Most of what people know about ebikes is marketing garbage. Mid-drives are OK, but they bring their own issues and the cost structure is not very good for entry level ebikes. Most configurations of DIY ebikes work OK. The rider adapts and balances the bike. I've loaded 35 pounds of motor and battery on the back and it works OK. Some of it is better traction. DIY systems have marginal controls. Some of the throttles are terrible. You can't tune the throttles or the speed controls decently. Work on that.

I ride ten miles through here every day. There are maybe 50,000 RV's out here, scattered on dozens of miles of desert. (Quartzsite, Az) I never see another ebike. So I zip along the main roads at maybe 16 mph and try to make it seem like this is the most fun anyone could have. This would be a great place to sell ebikes. Lots of ATV's. I'm silent and I can go anywhere. I wonder if I can haul a portable dump behind my bike?

If you guys argue too much, you are losing sight of expanding the market. Places like this are full of people with expensive rigs, so an ebike could be an impulse buy.

I'm glad to see Ravi (or is it Crazy Ravi now) and Eric engaged. There's a lack of energy in ebikes. I don't understand why the darned thing hasn't taken off.

 

[JRA]

"Some of the throttles are terrible. You can't tune the throttles or the speed controls decently."

With a CA V.3 you can and more. Not a cheap part but I have found it essential to better understanding what the capabilities of my bike are in regards to range and tracking my wh/mi. You can tune your throttle parameters and enable cruise control easily. I use a standard cheap thumb throttle and have put it through some water torture and it keeps working but I think that there could be a better one that is thinner, fits different bar diameters and definitely waterproof made for sure.

Pardon the clunky throttle mount. I feel the placement is right where it is, just need to get a better solution going than a chunk of handlebar, some bar end plugs, a washer and zip ties covered in electrical tape. Anybody out there have a 3D printer?

 

[flymeaway]

There's a lack of energy in ebikes

Too much debate about which bike or system is better. I have the BH bikes, MAC conversion, and the various mid-drives. With the notable exception of the difference between hub and mid-drive the argument seems to be very nuanced. Everyone has their preference. My opinion, if you can afford it and it fits the requirement it's a good bike. I do believe that for ebikes to be mainstream there has to be a great selection of bikes between $1,000 and $2,000, most people won't spend 3+ thousand dollars for a "bike". In the USA a bicycle is not viewed as a tool, it's recreation. When more people use it as a vehicle for transportation people will be more willing to pay more. You already know which bike I own and like... but I use it as my commuter and it fits the bill to a Tee.

Court J.

 

[JRA]

But people do pay 3+ thousand dollars all the time for non assist "recreational" bikes, been to a decent shop lately? The emphasis on e bikes as a recreational toy by the manufacturers ala e mtb's allows them the leeway to demand that price point, especially as they are adding a whole nother not inexpensive system and R+D to the mix. It takes away from what e bikes have gotten popular for first in other parts of the world like the EU and China, use as transportation tool.

It is going to take some time for it all to evolve here, probably another 5 years as bike industry trends go, but I feel strongly that it will integrate itself in to the traffic fabric if represented in a reasonable manner backed by support from the product manufacturers and the current cycling community. The best thing we can do as e bikers is to spread the word and ride responsibly.

Forums like this can also be invaluable for manufacturers to get feedback on their products and don't think they aren't tuning in, as well as shop owners/employees that are on the front lines.

 

[flymeaway]

But people do pay 3+ thousand dollars all the time for non assist "recreational" bikes

True. But far more people buy inexpensive bikes at mass merchandisers. For bikes to become more then a novelty they must be appealing to a large segment of the population. Perhaps that will happen, only time will tell.

Court J.

 

[harryS]

I'm just wondering if a 48 volt is sufficient because he keeps telling me that he has issues with the motor and is on his third HD. I think that hes riding it really hard and not shifting the way he should be, but he says he's doing everything properly so who am I to say . I'm not sure if it's connected or just bad luck.

Is he burning out controller boards, or is he melting the gears? When a customer keeps breaking a product. it's either mis-use or not strong enough. I hope he isn't making you eat the costs of those motors. I bet he would have issues on 48V too.

 

[JRA]

True. But far more people buy inexpensive bikes at mass merchandisers. For bikes to become more then a novelty they must be appealing to a large segment of the population. Perhaps that will happen, only time will tell.

Court J.

That time already happened last year with the Sondors CF success. 6 or so thousand bikes out there at under a grand each and I have yet to see one live. Most people that buy mass merchandised bicycles don't get much use out of them and they end up in the garage. Sondors continues to sell to the inexpensive crowd to this day so that option is open and available and they can be upgraded also due to their non proprietary components. If you look there are plenty of e bikes in the $1-2k range available. I saw a nice Raleigh with a Currie mid drive the other day at a store and it was $1500 so even the manufacturers are paying attention to that segment of the market.

People have to change their minds about how they deal with their personal transport needs and as long as gas is cheap they seem to be fine with using it and only when it gets high do they seek other options.

 

[tomjasz]

Is he burning out controller boards, or is he melting the gears? When a customer keeps breaking a product. it's either mis-use or not strong enough. I hope he isn't making you eat the costs of those motors. I bet he would have issues on 48V too.

Unheard of. I beat my HD. It's not sensitive on the same level as the 02 or 01. I often leave it in 5 th in a 7 speed system. I would fry my 02 if I did that. Something is missing in this story. I've yet to see a plastic gear problem. That's communicating with 4 resellers and 7 months with Luna. Karl may have or a 50A user may have, but in normal use? No!

 

[tomjasz]

I love two of my DIY bikes. I love the motor on the third, the Mac, but the frame is wrong and there's no front suspension.

I used to want a Haibike, but I won't go along with the small and proprietary battery. People should argue about battery safety, but let's face it. You can weld a pack together, use a basic BMS, and make sure the case is decent. Beyond that, what are you buying in terms of safety, and what does it cost?

I'm camping out in the desert. I have solar to charge everything, including the ebike. The terrain is flat, but very uneven and very rocky. The cheap Trek 820 handles it very well, with Marathon MTB tires. (Golden MP5 rear). You need a 2.xx tire for bad terrain. I just plow through everything except deep gravel.

I noticed that Prodeco Tech and Lectric are both sponsoring Crowdfunders, basically for BMX bikes. This is what I love. New bikes or bikes from my early years with a power plant. I don't know if these things will catch on, but we need DIY outfits to partner and do crowdfunders where there is a higher level of trust.

Eric is right, the alt-ebikers are winning. I don't think Bosch will go away, but they shouldn't count on high priced bikes and proprietary systems for a lot of sales. But the power argument is self-defeating. If we lose 750 watt ebikes because 1500 to 3000 watt bikes create problems, then we are Europe.

Most of what people know about ebikes is marketing garbage. Mid-drives are OK, but they bring their own issues and the cost structure is not very good for entry level ebikes. Most configurations of DIY ebikes work OK. The rider adapts and balances the bike. I've loaded 35 pounds of motor and battery on the back and it works OK. Some of it is better traction. DIY systems have marginal controls. Some of the throttles are terrible. You can't tune the throttles or the speed controls decently. Work on that.

I ride ten miles through here every day. There are maybe 50,000 RV's out here, scattered on dozens of miles of desert. (Quartzsite, Az) I never see another ebike. So I zip along the main roads at maybe 16 mph and try to make it seem like this is the most fun anyone could have. This would be a great place to sell ebikes. Lots of ATV's. I'm silent and I can go anywhere. I wonder if I can haul a portable dump behind my bike?

If you guys argue too much, you are losing sight of expanding the market. Places like this are full of people with expensive rigs, so an ebike could be an impulse buy.

I'm glad to see Ravi (or is it Crazy Ravi now) and Eric engaged. There's a lack of energy in ebikes. I don't understand why the darned thing hasn't taken off.

I hate to see another match of insults as on other forums and that narrow view. Unless it stays civil. Lenny and Madison is a big market. Developers of city trail systems are not anxious to see 30-40mph bikes on the multiuser trails. They will bring regulations. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that will be the outcome.

 

[tomjasz]

But people do pay 3+ thousand dollars all the time for non assist "recreational" bikes, been to a decent shop lately? The emphasis on e bikes as a recreational toy by the manufacturers ala e mtb's allows them the leeway to demand that price point, especially as they are adding a whole nother not inexpensive system and R+D to the mix. It takes away from what e bikes have gotten popular for first in other parts of the world like the EU and China, use as transportation tool.

It is going to take some time for it all to evolve here, probably another 5 years as bike industry trends go, but I feel strongly that it will integrate itself in to the traffic fabric if represented in a reasonable manner backed by support from the product manufacturers and the current cycling community. The best thing we can do as e bikers is to spread the word and ride responsibly.

Forums like this can also be invaluable for manufacturers to get feedback on their products and don't think they aren't tuning in, as well as shop owners/employees that are on the front lines.

As long as hooligans don't terrorize other trail users there's some hope. But the high power users will hopefully stay to the streets. If not, expect derision.

 

[tomjasz]

That time already happened last year with the Sondors CF success. 6 or so thousand bikes out there at under a grand each and I have yet to see one live. .

Following their groups on Facebook and on resellers forums, I'd be willing to bet a fair percentage are now riding $2000 or more bikes after all the upgrades.