*BBS02B* Settings/Pedal Assist/Stop Decay * an Excellent Motor Refinement *

[Gionnirocket]

edit: I've updated the title here to only include the BBS02B as further experimentation on here indicate that this setting doesn't do the same for the BBSHD... and no BBSO1 users have chimed in.
Though the BBSHD doesn't seem benefit from elevating this setting as the BBS02B does... the tests show there was no ill effect nor motor run on that was often suggested.
ymmv


I'm wondering if anyone has played with Stop Decay beyond the typical 0 - 10 setting.

I've been playing with setting in the range from 40 up to 120 and I notice a much improved smoothness to both acceleration and riding along at a constant pace.
The only way I can describe it is that the PAS input while riding steady, instead of feeling like ON/OFF or 0/100 repeatedly... it's more nuanced not dropping off all the way and not needing to lurch back all the way to 100. The odd thing is.. the higher the setting the more it seems to affect acceleration as well... giving it a more aggressive feel but still smoother. I have tried tempering that by adjusting Slow-Start Mode up from 5 to 6, but in the end it felt overall better dropping Stop Decay back down to a lower number.
I wish Slow-Start Mode hade a wider scale like 1-10 or even 12 as I think the perfect setting would be around 4.5 to 5.5 as is. . . or even better, if it was just a simple ramp rate it would be more useful as I still don't understand the need for the presumed overshoot as discussed.
I'm still playing with this as I feel I can still tweak it further. . .but I have to say I really like how it feels.

A few notes. . don't pay too much attention to the watt readout on your display as I feel the sample rate isn't frequent enough to capture the improvement.
And only anecdotal at this point, but I believe I see improved efficiency as well. It appears my mileage on my typical 18.5 mile ride has improved from an average of 7.5wh/mi to 6.75wh/mi. This kinda makes sense as flipping a motor on and off repeatedly uses more power then just letting it run . . .ymmv

I plan on trying a Stop Decay of 90 next as I felt 80 could still be improved upon and 100 -120 was just a bit too much on the acceleration factor for me.

 

[m@Robertson]

In the Hacker's Guide, Stop Decay is set to zero on four of the five source recommendations. The fifth, Kepler, sets it to 20 and notes why.

Stop Decay(x10ms): 0\0\0\20\0 – The amount of time the system takes to cut after pedaling stops. Lower is faster. Kepler says,

“I prefer a smooth stop transition. It is still quite quick to shut the drive down when you stop pedaling”

A Hacker’s Guide To Programming The BBS02 & BBSHD

One way that the BBS02 middrive unit shines over other competition like the Bosch is the ability to program the controller yourself. Although the process of programming the controller will void any…

electricbike-blog.com

I prefer zero because when I stop pedaling I want the motor to stop right away.

On slow start mode, I ordinarily put it at 3. Slower engagement is gentler on the drivetrain. Since I am daily driving a bike that carries heavy loads I don't want anything near a hard start. However I use this on all my bikes. the scrn below shows a setting of 2 which is known to be dangerous to the controller. I prefer it on my Bullitt as it makes for a completely smooth engagement from a standing start, but its not worth the risk to the controller so I am changing it back.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I know what you are saying... But this is what I mean about being stuck following the past and even worse giving to much credence to the settings as named.
Even more so how settings interact with each other and how one setting change doesn't seem to do anything until you adjust others.
Raising it to 120 and there was NO difference in motor run on after pedaling stopped. It seems to allow for "run on" whilst pedaling if that makes sense.
* Motor run on is mostly a function of Stop Delay
One thing to note about the hacker's guide is that it was written by/for mountain biking... Not necessarily for people looking to exercise with a little assistance.
If you're feeling inquisitive... I suggest you give it a try because I'm somewhat impressed with the improvement.

*edited.

 

[m@Robertson]

Since I am already going in there to up the slow-start I will. Thats one thing I really like about the portable programmer - I can quickly plug in and make changes mid-ride as I please. I have been slowly stepping the motors on my bikes down to enhance the power cut at hi cadence, and to improve smooth engagement, for a better pedelec experience.

 

[TNC]

These types of discussions and comparisons are often confusing...until...we realize how each user is applying their settings. I absolutely need "0" in stop decay for mountain biking on trails with fairly constant changes in direction, obstacles, etc. "As delivered" on my first ride on my BBSHD on our local, decently challenging trail, it was a bit of a wild ride. Before programming it was overrunning on the power, it was too aggressive on start up power, and everything in between. I think I could have ridden it this way on pavement to some degree, but even there I would have appreciated some "smoothing out" of the rough edges.

Sure, for off road trail we have brake sensors, shift sensors, and the stop pedaling control, but the ability to sort of stay on the pedals while going into and during a corner or otherwise is beneficial in maintaining momentum. But when I stop pedaling and/or hit my active brake sensor, I want power to cease immediately. I say "active brake sensor", because I have my front brake sensor inactive and only use the rear. This allows me to continue to pedal under power into and maybe even through a corner while gently working the front brake to temper the approach and departure without killing power in the corner. It's not a lot different in how I ride my dirt motor. Being on the power and being a "little" on the brakes may sound counterintuitive to some, but that's the method a lot people use to maintain speed. And some may argue about how to use or not use the front brake on a dirt motor or MTB, but that's a whole other debate...LOL!

Hey, [email protected] you say "Bullit"? Do you mean the Santa Cruz Bullit MTB? And if so, what generation?

 

[Gionnirocket]

Since I am already going in there to up the slow-start I will. Thats one thing I really like about the portable programmer - I can quickly plug in and make changes mid-ride as I please. I have been slowly stepping the motors on my bikes down to enhance the power cut at hi cadence, and to improve smooth engagement, for a better pedelec experience.

What are you using? Tried egg rider and though great for that, I find it horrible in every other way.
One other note... This is on a BBS02B.. So things might be slightly different on an HD.
I know that Stop Delay below 20 is horrid on the BBS02B but not a problem at all with the HD

 

[m@Robertson]

Yeah I have an Eggrider on my Cyc and not impressed at all.

I am using the Luna Black Box. I have one of the first ones and its different than the ones they sell now. All plastic casing rather than the alloy sandwich they seem to be using now. Its $150 which is hard to choke down versus an $18 cable but I've never regretted it.

 

[Gionnirocket]

These types of discussions and comparisons are often confusing...until...we realize how each user is applying their settings. I absolutely need "0" in stop decay for mountain biking on trails with fairly constant changes in direction, obstacles, etc. "As delivered" on my first ride on my BBSHD on our local, decently challenging trail, it was a bit of a wild ride. Before programming it was overrunning on the power, it was too aggressive on start up power, and everything in between. I think I could have ridden it this way on pavement to some degree, but even there I would have appreciated some "smoothing out" of the rough edges.

Sure, for off road trail we have brake sensors, shift sensors, and the stop pedaling control, but the ability to sort of stay on the pedals while going into and during a corner or otherwise is beneficial in maintaining momentum. But when I stop pedaling and/or hit my active brake sensor, I want power to cease immediately. I say "active brake sensor", because I have my front brake sensor inactive and only use the rear. This allows me to continue to pedal under power into and maybe even through a corner while gently working the front brake to temper the approach and departure without killing power in the corner. It's not a lot different in how I ride my dirt motor. Being on the power and being a "little" on the brakes may sound counterintuitive to some, but that's the method a lot people use to maintain speed. And some may argue about how to use or not use the front brake on a dirt motor or MTB, but that's a whole other debate...LOL!

Hey, [email protected] you say "Bullit"? Do you mean the Santa Cruz Bullit MTB? And if so, what generation?

I agree with you as my BBS02B arrived with the same rough programming.
The impression that I have here is that the setting is mislabeled and misunderstood. It does not add to motor run on at all when used in conjunction with my other settings. The noticeable run on occurs when I adjust Stop Delay.... Not Decay. And I believe that the belief that the two settings work in conjunction is false.

 

[Gionnirocket]

No takers huh??
I've continued to play with this settings and it is definitely a huge improvement in smoothness when pedaling along at a constant cadence. I've been riding a setting of 95 and I think my sweetspot is there 'bouts. The higher you set it. . it does increase acceleration rate, but nothing drastic that I've seen up to 120
I'll say again. . .
It does not affect the motor stopping time at all when you stop pedaling.
I feel that it is misnamed and definitely mis_described with a high degree of certainty. This is what has probably stopped most (myself included) from trying higher set points in the past. I didn't notice much improvement in settings below 40 and you really start to appreciate it once you go above 60
My feeling is that it works in conjunction with Keep Current and it is the current fall off time in between the PAS sensors input to the controller. That makes sense with it's placement in the settings as well.
@PedalUma ... I know you've mentioned PAS sensor crudeness in past posts. I'd be interested in your take on this if you feel like experimenting.
@tomjasz ... I'd be interested in your impression of this as well with you being the Saint of all things Bafang... though I know you use the Grin CA3

Yeah I have an Eggrider on my Cyc and not impressed at all.

I am using the Luna Black Box. I have one of the first ones and its different than the ones they sell now. All plastic casing rather than the alloy sandwich they seem to be using now. Its $150 which is hard to choke down versus an $18 cable but I've never regretted it.

I've always wondered why your screenshots of the settings pages looked different. Now that makes sense.
That said. . . Have you seen/tried this? I just used it today for the first time and it's a real game changer. Just in time for everything to go CANBUS!

new Android app for programming

Anyone given this app an audition? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mkopa.speeed&hl=en&gl=US

electricbikereview.com

 

[PedalUma]

No takers huh??
I've continued to play with this settings and it is definitely a huge improvement in smoothness when pedaling along at a constant cadence. I've been riding a setting of 95 and I think my sweetspot is there 'bouts. The higher you set it. . it does increase acceleration rate, but nothing drastic that I've seen up to 120
I'll say again. . .
It does not affect the motor stopping time at all when you stop pedaling.
I feel that it is misnamed and definitely mis_described with a high degree of certainty. This is what has probably stopped most (myself included) from trying higher set points in the past. I didn't notice much improvement in settings below 40 and you really start to appreciate it once you go above 60
My feeling is that it works in conjunction with Keep Current and it is the current fall off time in between the PAS sensors input to the controller. That makes sense with it's placement in the settings as well.
@PedalUma ... I know you've mentioned PAS sensor crudeness in past posts. I'd be interested in your take on this if you feel like experimenting.
@tomjasz ... I'd be interested in your impression of this as well with you being the Saint of all things Bafang... though I know you use the Grin CA3

I've always wondered why your screenshots of the settings pages looked different. Now that makes sense.
That said. . . Have you seen/tried this? I just used it today for the first time and it's a real game changer. Just in time for everything to go CANBUS!

new Android app for programming

Anyone given this app an audition? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mkopa.speeed&hl=en&gl=US

electricbikereview.com

I think it is great you are experimenting. It seems from what you are describing that the higher number represents a lower delay.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I think it is great you are experimenting. It seems from what you are describing that the higher number represents a lower delay.

It's not really a lower delay... The only way I can explain it is that the PAS operates more smoothly and somewhat more aggressive on initial acceleration. The Keep Current is more active and smoother with less ON/OFF lurching.
Care to give it a try? I'm curious to hear other experiences.

 

[tomjasz]

I think it is great you are experimenting.

And when it goes south don’t expect warranty support. “Playing” with settings has F’d up controllers. YMMV.

 

[AHicks]

And when it goes south don’t expect warranty support. “Playing” with settings has F’d up controllers. YMMV.

Oh please. Sure it's possible for a hair brain to get totally screwed up, but I believe most here are/were smart enough to get screen shots of their original settings to reference. And it's not like people here are messing with the more performance oriented changes that might start stressing components. Changes that might encourage wheels stands for instance....

I enjoy reading of other's trials and impressions as well.... -Al

 

[tomjasz]

Oh please.

Oh please? I’ve responded to far more BBSxx customers than you have. Probably exponentially compared to you. We’ve dealt with scores of idiots toasting their BBSxx controllers by “playing” and then crying warranty. I’m surprised that you reacted this way. You’re typically the smarter poster. BMS are another product that poses a nightmare for resellers. The reason most resellers gave up stocking them. Common sense ain’t so common.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Oh please? I’ve responded to far more BBSxx customers than you have. Probably exponentially compared to you. We’ve dealt with scores of idiots toasting their BBSxx controllers by “playing” and then crying warranty. I’m surprised that you reacted this way. You’re typically the smarter poster. BMS are another product that poses a nightmare for resellers. The reason most resellers gave up stocking them. Common sense ain’t so common.

First... I didn't buy it from you.
Second.... it's more than a year old now.
Third.... my settings are oľ fart oriented and if anything they protect the motor more than the settings that it arrived with new.
Fourth.... Santo! ... why have you forsaken me?

 

[Gionnirocket]

Oh please. Sure it's possible for a hair brain to get totally screwed up, but I believe most here are/were smart enough to get screen shots of their original settings to reference. And it's not like people here are messing with the more performance oriented changes that might start stressing components. Changes that might encourage wheels stands for instance....

I enjoy reading of other's trials and impressions as well.... -Al

Al... You may want to try/add this to your Frey Smooth settings.
They're what inspired me and got me thinking to try this.

 

[tomjasz]

First... I didn't buy it from you.
Second.... it's more than a year old now.
Third.... my settings are oľ fart oriented and if anything they protect the motor more than the settings that it arrived with new.
Fourth.... Santo! ... why have you forsaken me?

Good land man, I’m not addressing you. But you brighter guys aren’t 100% of the market. I do think that n00bs reading can get over confident and in fact follow none of the available .el files. I think it’s important to point out that there are caveats. That’s my experience. FWIW.

 

[AHicks]

Oh please? I’ve responded to far more BBSxx customers than you have. Probably exponentially compared to you. We’ve dealt with scores of idiots toasting their BBSxx controllers by “playing” and then crying warranty. I’m surprised that you reacted this way. You’re typically the smarter poster. BMS are another product that poses a nightmare for resellers. The reason most resellers gave up stocking them. Common sense ain’t so common.

And I'm not trying to undermine the work you've done. Pretty sure there are many that really appreciated it.

My point was regarding discouraging careful experimentation, and further documentation. No more, no less.

 

[AHicks]

Al... You may want to try/add this to your Frey Smooth settings.
They're what inspired me and got me thinking to try this.

Honestly, I can't wait to get back into some of these ideas. It's going to be early November before I even get close to that bike again though. I do appreciate the thought! -Al

 

[tomjasz]

My point was regarding discouraging careful experimentation

Thanks, but it didn’t seem to be presented that way. I have many stories. I tend not to share them trying to avoid a customer reading and realizing it’s their stupid story I’m sharing. And as I’ve recently posted I’m worn out answering questions from customers that can’t seem to figure out that it’s all in a Google search. So for my 70th birthday I’m done. Then watch out…