2016 ST Stromer

[Cory151]

You've missed my point. It's not that it doesn't have it - there's a place for average hub drives on hard tails without front suspension forks but that's not on expensive bikes made to look like something special by marketing rhetoric.

You like the BBSO2?

Yes, I agree with most of that. But it doesn't negate my original point.

Blah, blah, blah..... you like blondes I like brunettes because they are cheaper to maintain etc, etc, etc.

Doesn't sound to me like your issue is with anybody here on this site. It sounds like you have an issue with Stromer, why not contact them with your roderick? Maybe even get a little "class action going."

Nobody here built the bike or works in there advertising department.

Which begs the question, is somebody on a Stromer showing up to your neighborhood and knocking your propeller hat off of you for shifting your bicycle like a motorcycle?

 

[Adrian]

You like the BBSO2?



Blah, blah, blah..... you like blondes I like brunettes because they are cheaper to maintain etc, etc, etc.

Doesn't sound to me like your issue is with anybody here on this site. It sounds like you have an issue with Stromer, why not contact them with your roderick? Maybe even get a little "class action going."

Nobody here built the bike or works in there advertising department.

Which begs the question, is somebody on a Stromer showing up to your neighborhood and knocking your propeller hat off of you for shifting your bicycle like a motorcycle?

I see you took my posts personally. Never a good thing.

The issue I had with the ST2 is the exaggerated market blurb on their site. I guess, if it were an average priced bike I wouldn't be phased but with an MSRP of $7000 you'd kind of expect more than a heavy commuter bike with a hub motor. At least I would.

But let's see, what do you get for your $7K.

A 500w hub motor - Even a Mac 500w motor has more torque and will go just as fast and you can pick that up for < $300. If you really want to splurg you can get an "enormously powerful" 5000W Cromotor for $600 which actually is, enormously powerful.
A big battery capacity - You can get more capacity for < $800.
A nice commuter bike - Even a top of the range Specialized Crosstrail Expert with Shimano XT gubbins can be had for $1500.
Add a controller for the motor, a display and other bits and bobs and you're talking another couple of hundred, let's say another $250, and so, for around $2800 you'll get to a top of the range electric bike, that is lighter than the ST2, that's more powerful than the ST2, and which has more range.
Add another 3 or $400 and you could have a 5000W Cromotor monster.

That's $4000 less than the ST2. And I didn't even look for good deals. I'm pretty sure Stromer is not paying those kind of prices for its parts either.

That's more than a large markup. And yes, companies have to make money, and yes, things are worth what people are willing to pay.

But at least with many other high end bikes with mid-drives and full suspension systems there's a lot more engineering going into them to justify the cost. Not just a Swiss sticker (I guess stuff costs a lot in Switzerland - yes, I lived there for quite a while so I know).

And no, I'm not against expensive stuff either but it should at least make some pretense at being worth the price - personally, I'd love an M1 Spitzing and would buy one if my wife wouldn't have me shot if I did.

 

[opimax]

IMHO to compare bikes I think it best be compared to a prebuilt bike and then only after riding both. I remember when I had my Infiniti g35 coupe, compared to a 300 series BMW coupe, my Infiniti had 30 more HP but the BMW was actually quicker to 60 and the 1/4 mile. The "statement" was BMW had bigger horses , the stats didn't mean anything on the track.

 

[Deleted member 803]

I see you took my posts personally. Never a good thing.

The issue I had with the ST2 is the exaggerated market blurb on their site. I guess, if it were an average priced bike I wouldn't be phased but with an MSRP of $7000 you'd kind of expect more than a heavy commuter bike with a hub motor. At least I would.

But let's see, what do you get for your $7K.

A 500w hub motor - Even a Mac 500w motor has more torque and will go just as fast and you can pick that up for < $300. If you really want to splurg you can get an "enormously powerful" 5000W Cromotor for $600 which actually is, enormously powerful.
A big battery capacity - You can get more capacity for < $800.
A nice commuter bike - Even a top of the range Specialized Crosstrail Expert with Shimano XT gubbins can be had for $1500.
Add a controller for the motor, a display and other bits and bobs and you're talking another couple of hundred, let's say another $250, and so, for around $2800 you'll get to a top of the range electric bike, that is lighter than the ST2, that's more powerful than the ST2, and which has more range.
Add another 3 or $400 and you could have a 5000W Cromotor monster.

That's $4000 less than the ST2. And I didn't even look for good deals. I'm pretty sure Stromer is not paying those kind of prices for its parts either.

That's more than a large markup. And yes, companies have to make money, and yes, things are worth what people are willing to pay.

But at least with many other high end bikes with mid-drives and full suspension systems there's a lot more engineering going into them to justify the cost. Not just a Swiss sticker (I guess stuff costs a lot in Switzerland - yes, I lived there for quite a while so I know).

And no, I'm not against expensive stuff either but it should at least make some pretense at being worth the price - personally, I'd love an M1 Spitzing and would buy one if my wife wouldn't have me shot if I did.

Having spent most of my life in prison and currently being homeless, I probably don't have a right to argue with you. I have examined my new ST2 and have a couple of complaints besides price.

They spent a ridiculous amount of money on a custom frame geometry that includes stupid little things like a massive head tube for strength, front fork internal routing of brake lines, and welds that would make Ducati proud. I am also annoyed at the controller. Seems they spent way too much time fine tuning the flow of power to the motor to produce a massively smooth delivery of power to the rear wheel. Nobody really cares about smooth and linear behavior. And don't get me started about the battery. Why the hell did they spend all that time redesigning the downtube to integrate the larger battery and make it disappear. So what if it does not affect the balance of the bike. And it seems absurd to spend all that time and engineering to making removal of the rear wheel the easiest of any rear hub on the market with thru axles and a single quick release of the motor cable. I'm wondering how much money it cost to integrate the daytime running light into the front of the head tube as I don't really care that it increases the visibility envelope in traffic. Little nits continue: The charger is ridiculously light and probably costs more than my beloved huge and heavy brick of a charger on my Neo Carbon. Was it really worth it to make a charger that is actually easy to carry with you. The motor on the bike is ordinary. Sure it runs at a higher nominal power then most and has been tuned in conjunction with the controller to render a range of 60-80 miles. Nobody cares about this kind of range so it makes little sense to pay for this. And lastly, they could have saved a ton of money by just eliminating the wireless electronics, built in gps locator, tuneable controller, tuneable regenerative recoup, and remote lock. Personally I like carrying a big heavy chain to lock my bike.

I'm with you on the kit thing. I could have saved a lot money. Well sure, nothing would be integrated, the bike frame and geometry would be incorrect, there would be no local dealer support, and I'd have to contact a whole bunch of vendors for any warranty issues but so what.

Perhaps I made mistake in my purchase and overpaid. $4700 (plus freight) is a lot of money to me.

 

[Adrian]

86 I'm guessing they pay $500 a frame max and it's probably a lot less - the fact that you find it so special is kinda cute but really, I hate to brake it to you but these days, integrated frame batteries and internal cable routing is not a very new or even unusual thing.

As I said previously, it's an okay bike for what it is, I just think it's way over priced and my "kit" comparison was just to highlight how much mark up is on the thing.

 

[Deleted member 803]

86 I'm guessing they pay $500 a frame max and it's probably a lot less - the fact that you find it so special is kinda cute but really, I hate to brake it to you but these days, integrated frame batteries and internal cable routing is not a very new or even unusual thing.

As I said previously, it's an okay bike for what it is, I just think it's way over priced and my "kit" comparison was just to highlight how much mark up is on the thing.

Can you share with me how you know what the markup is on the Stromer? Do you know what the manufacturing and tooling cost is? And if you know what the markup is, how did you determine the cap costs of Stromer, the research and development costs, the worldwide dealer network support cost, the labor costs, the marketing costs and the dealer margin requirements? I'd bet that ST2 owners attach a higher value proposition to their bikes than other brand owners. Not that you are wrong, its just that you attach value differently than Stromer owners.

I worked for a company that sold a $100 MSRP product that cost $2.70 to make. We were so overpriced that we wound up having #1 worldwide market share, highest product quality of any of our competitors, and highest level of customer satisfaction. Dollar for dollar Apple products are the most overpriced items in their categories and yet I'm sure you'd find that most Apple product owners consider their purchases a tremendous value. I have a bunch of Ferrari owning friends and I can't recollect ever hearing one of them telling me they overpaid.

 

[Bike_On]

Heard thru the grapevine that the next iteration of the ST2 will be even more upscale. It is evident that Stromer intends to compete at the top of the e-bike class.

Top of the ddhub, speed pedelec class. Lots's of variety within the ebike world.

 

[bluecat]

On my daily ride, I drive beside Restaurant Le Cheval Blanc. This Restaurant is very exquisite, has splendid rooms, exciting meals and extraordinary high prices. But It's not perfect. With two Michelin stars and 19 Gault Millau points, it's still room for improvement.

On my way home, I pass another Restaurant. This one has twice the St. Louis Arch in his initial letter. They offer meals with faster delivery, much more calories and do not afford any formal dressing. Furthermore, everything is much cheaper.

Shall this bring me to the conclusion: The cheaper is the better?

 

[Cameron Newland]

On my daily ride, I drive beside Restaurant Le Cheval Blanc. This Restaurant is very exquisite, has splendid rooms, exciting meals and extraordinary high prices. But It's not perfect. With two Michelin stars and 19 Gault Millau points, it's still room for improvement.

On my way home, I pass another Restaurant. This one has twice the St. Louis Arch in his initial letter. They offer meals with faster delivery, much more calories and do not afford any formal dressing. Furthermore, everything is much cheaper.

Shall this bring me to the conclusion: The cheaper is the better?

Ça dépend. Mais je préfère MacDo! haha

 

[Rick Huizinga]

And I quote, "an enormous 35Nm of torque too". Come on, that's not even close to being enormous - you can get cheap alibaba 250w motors with that.

Are we to be surprised and disgusted by the use of glowing adjectives in marketing copy, especially when placed directly adjacent to a factual numerical rating?

 

[Deleted member 803]

Are we to be surprised and disgusted by the use of glowing adjectives in marketing copy, especially when placed directly adjacent to a factual numerical rating?

Look it pal......I spend a lot of time on www.farmersonly.com. The only way to get hot young guys is to not use my real picture (as seen on this site), lie about my perspiration, memory, and ED problems, and to tell them that I am the stud of the century. You want honesty in marketing...........attend church.

 

[MLB]

I post here in the EBR forums because I love cycling and riding my bicycle. While I used to be a "vested participant", I am not any longer; I owned one, an eBike, but it was thrashed in shipping and didn't work so I sent it back.

Additionally, I didn't say "it's all BS", what I said was "I read all the BS." That's two completely different sentences, with different meanings. As far as the value of this forum, and it's holdings for me, they diminish daily. Which is why I have kept my postings to areas/bikes of interests. Unfortunately I indulged in my cynicism too much.

You really should try riding a Stromer before you weigh in.
It's an awfully nice bike, which you can only appreciate when you own one. I don't think even a test ride would show the quality, it takes some time to appreciate the little things.
1/2 the people weighing in on ANY bike have never ridden one, they are passing on internet opinions.

 

[Kaldeem]

That's a fair assessment, the only stromer dealer near me is an hour away and I had plans on going with the St1 plt. Which at it's price point is fairly above market given the specs of other bikes and price comparison, but still decent and viable. My comment was more geared at the St2 and any future bike that prizes bells and whistles over operation and specs/functionality. I'm still going to ride the St1 elite and plat. just have to find time to get over there.

 

[Adrian]

On my daily ride, I drive beside Restaurant Le Cheval Blanc. This Restaurant is very exquisite, has splendid rooms, exciting meals and extraordinary high prices. But It's not perfect. With two Michelin stars and 19 Gault Millau points, it's still room for improvement.

On my way home, I pass another Restaurant. This one has twice the St. Louis Arch in his initial letter. They offer meals with faster delivery, much more calories and do not afford any formal dressing. Furthermore, everything is much cheaper.

Shall this bring me to the conclusion: The cheaper is the better?

Na, but the difference is that Michelin starred resturants offer you something that can't be had in a fish and chip shop - I know, I've been in several (3* even).

 

[bluecat]

... Michelin starred resturants offer you something that can't be had in a fish and chip shop...

Yes, exactly that's the point.

If you ask our friends from Endless-sphere.com, you will find a lot of components to build a electric bicycle. Every single part will claim ludicrous high values - and you will end up with a very unique patchwork bike. But it's still not like the fully integrated ST2.

 

[Josh_S]

[QUOTE="86 .

Perhaps I made mistake in my purchase and overpaid. $4700 (plus freight) is a lot of money to me.[/QUOTE]

Hi Im new to the forum, I've been drooling over the Stromer ST2 - how did you get one for $4700? What are most people paying?

 

[Deleted member 803]

[QUOTE="86 .

Perhaps I made mistake in my purchase and overpaid. $4700 (plus freight) is a lot of money to me.

Hi Im new to the forum, I've been drooling over the Stromer ST2 - how did you get one for $4700? What are most people paying?[/QUOTE]

Hi Josh and welcome to the forum: You should know that I value humor and use it to make a point. I do not believe in publicly disclosing purchase prices and was jesting in my pricing comment (if you read the topic string:I was trying to emphasize the fact that Stromer brings tremendous value to the table and that value is defined as much more than purchase cost). This forum is filled with dealers, some of whom disclose their dealer affiliation and some who do not. I am sure you will get private messages from those hawking their wares.

There a many ebike vendors who are willing to turn a blind eye to certain dealers who sell out of state AND who have the cash reserves necessary to buy very large quantities of bikes at costs that are below typical dealer cost. This turns the industry upside down for local dealers who need retail margins just go keep the doors open. In certain instances, these volume-purchase dealers SELLING prices can be below average small dealer cost. It is a big win for the consumer in this instance but a big loose for most local dealers.

 

[Josh_S]

Thanks 86, I got the humor, and agree with you about supporting local businesses but being new to e-bikes (or any bike not made by Ducati) I didn't know if like when I buy a new car the sticker price is more often than not a beginning point to bargain from. Sounds like list or close to list is what I can expect to pay for a quality bike. Fair enough.
Again thanks for the clarification.

 

[Deleted member 803]

Thanks 86, I got the humor, and agree with you about supporting local businesses but being new to e-bikes (or any bike not made by Ducati) I didn't know if like when I buy a new car the sticker price is more often than not a beginning point to bargain from. Sounds like list or close to list is what I can expect to pay for a quality bike. Fair enough.
Again thanks for the clarification.

I am sure local dealers are willing to negotiate slightly and I advise every consumer to politely negotiate. In many instances you may obtain better pricing just by asking. May I ask what area of the country you are from?

 

[Cameron Newland]

Hi Im new to the forum, I've been drooling over the Stromer ST2 - how did you get one for $4700? What are most people paying?

Just FYI, there is a silly rule on the forum that dealer prices under MSRP aren't to be discussed. I imagine the rule has come about as a result of most of this forum's income coming from ebike brands that rely on their dealer networks for sales revenue, and hence have an incentive to maintain MSRP as the gold standard of price reference. However, there is no prohibition on discussing lower-than-MSRP pricing using private messages, so I suggest you use that function, lest the powers that be step in and end this forum thread. ;-)