tomjasz
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11 of the hottest ebike motors available and one with 160 Nm of torque!!
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Ebiker01
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1- Bafang Ultra
2-Tq
3-Sachs
All others are disqualified for not providing enough torque
But really at 3.9kg TQ is the clear winner. TQ race version has 920watts.
And then Sachs Rs is very close 2nd, is between those 2. But if ebike manufacturers don’t install them then it’s a market manipulation on behalf of Bosch/Brose/Yamaha.
2-Tq
3-Sachs
All others are disqualified for not providing enough torque
But really at 3.9kg TQ is the clear winner. TQ race version has 920watts.
And then Sachs Rs is very close 2nd, is between those 2. But if ebike manufacturers don’t install them then it’s a market manipulation on behalf of Bosch/Brose/Yamaha.
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Feliz
Well-Known Member
My current personal favourite mid drive is the Yamaha PW-X, not because it has the most power but because for me it has the best tuning, I have the PW-X in my Easymotion Rebel Lynx 5.5 and it's perfect for mountain biking. The rated specs on a lot of these motors mean nothing as the power claims are meant to meet Euro regulations.
The Bafang BBSXX series of motors are awesome, I have a Biktrix Juggernaut BBSHD and it's power is incredible, it eats up any hill I've found so far. I have a Watt Wagon with the Bafang Ultra, it has the power but in spite of its torque sensing I prefer the tuning of the HD. I run both motors at 1600 watts.
Some sources claim the TQ motor, which I don't have, is based on patents from the eProdigy proprietary mid drive which I do have on a Magic Pro, the motor is very powerful, runs cool, has no pedalling resistance but uses a lot of power. I run my eProdigy at 1200 watts.
I did have a Haibike Trekking Sduro 9 powered with a Bosch CX but sold it as I found the bike underpowered and battery removal was difficult. That's my limited experience with mid drives.
The Bafang BBSXX series of motors are awesome, I have a Biktrix Juggernaut BBSHD and it's power is incredible, it eats up any hill I've found so far. I have a Watt Wagon with the Bafang Ultra, it has the power but in spite of its torque sensing I prefer the tuning of the HD. I run both motors at 1600 watts.
Some sources claim the TQ motor, which I don't have, is based on patents from the eProdigy proprietary mid drive which I do have on a Magic Pro, the motor is very powerful, runs cool, has no pedalling resistance but uses a lot of power. I run my eProdigy at 1200 watts.
I did have a Haibike Trekking Sduro 9 powered with a Bosch CX but sold it as I found the bike underpowered and battery removal was difficult. That's my limited experience with mid drives.
Feliz
Well-Known Member
Here's another motor review, interesting that they rate the Brose over the TQ. I ride my friends Brose equipped Specialized Levo a lot and have to admit to really liking it, they really have got the Brose tuning dialled in. I find the TQ powerful but crude, kind of like the BBS02.
ebike-mtb.com
The best eMTB motor of 2021 – The 8 hottest motors in test
Which ebike motor is best? We tested seven of the most important motors in our group test and tell you what it’s all about on the trail.
ebike-mtb.com
Is anyone noticing that almost all the motor manufacturers have products with peak power numbers that exceed the EU and even the US power regulations for compliant ebike motors/products?
It's crystal clear that in reality the regulatory power limits were set too low for ebikes to become mainstream acceptable, especially to enable viable urban mobility solutions, so the OEM began stating nominal (compliant) and peak (non-compliant) specifications.
At 160nm of torque that means the chain and chain rings experience loads that are pretty much equivalent to someone about 100kgs standing on the cranks constantly. No wonder some are mentioning how much drive train maintenance has increased. I'm wondering if Gates belts are more prone to wear at the higher torques but they are not a good solution for most off-road enthusiasts.
It's crystal clear that in reality the regulatory power limits were set too low for ebikes to become mainstream acceptable, especially to enable viable urban mobility solutions, so the OEM began stating nominal (compliant) and peak (non-compliant) specifications.
At 160nm of torque that means the chain and chain rings experience loads that are pretty much equivalent to someone about 100kgs standing on the cranks constantly. No wonder some are mentioning how much drive train maintenance has increased. I'm wondering if Gates belts are more prone to wear at the higher torques but they are not a good solution for most off-road enthusiasts.
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Ravi Kempaiah
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Feliz
Well-Known Member
I rode an M1 at the dealer, why do you ask?
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tomjasz
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Not a single DIY product. More parts and repair wait times.
jeez, leave it alone. Accessing parts and supporting diy repairs is tough enough. I’ve yet to trash an OEM crank. Controllers are not on the top of the list of problem parts. Aftermarket controller options are a step backwards. But then I’m one who thinks 35mph eBikes with acoustic quality brakes is foolish. Bafang has confounded customers twice this year. Unannounced firmware change making 52v batteries throw erro 7, and unannounced rotor change with no provisions for backwards compatibility. We sorted both but not without some frustrating moments and customers.
Ravi Kempaiah
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The new TQ motors that were developed for Haibike had some technical glitches and the bikes are not available for sale even in EU.
The motors used on the M1 are older gen TQ motors but they work well. I believe the light output and shift sensing were added in 2016.
I agree, Yamaha PW-X is a great motor. Smooth and instant assist.
GregGritton
Member
A thread a while ago gave some charts of motor power and torque vs. cadence for the major European and Japanese brands:
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...rison-chart-bosch-yamaha-shimano-brose.14085/
Peak output power (which seemed to be what the charts were measuring) for most was ~500 watts. Input power would be over 600 watts. That is way higher than the 250W European specification, but under the US specification. I have a bike with a Bosch Performance line motor (which I believe is one picture in one of the curves) and it seems to give plenty of power, so much so that I rarely use the two higher settings. Also, this level of power is way more than most of us can put into the bike for long. Thus, I don't think it is too low for mainstream acceptance.
BTW - There are two reasons I believe the curves are output power:
- They all tent towards 0 at 0 RPM.
- https://electricbikereview.com/foru...chart-bosch-yamaha-shimano-brose.14085/page-3 converts the power to torque, and they seem to match the motor's maximum torque claims (or at least come somewhere close.)
Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
The best test would be on a 10% unpaved/potholes filled road with a 60lb ebike, a 250-275lb rider ( un untrained regular person, not a seasoned cyclist) and also an additional 50-75lb panniers in front or rear.
Which one of those motors would climb it with a light to moderate effort ? That would justify the 3 or 4 or 5grand price for the purchase ? Or 7-10grand for some of the ebikes.
Will it ride sluggish , barely making it or provide a secure powerful feel , a 10-12mph, maybe 15 mph speed ?
And if that hill is 1mile long , how many of those motors will overheat requiring a possible replacement ?
Which one of those motors would climb it with a light to moderate effort ? That would justify the 3 or 4 or 5grand price for the purchase ? Or 7-10grand for some of the ebikes.
Will it ride sluggish , barely making it or provide a secure powerful feel , a 10-12mph, maybe 15 mph speed ?
And if that hill is 1mile long , how many of those motors will overheat requiring a possible replacement ?
GregGritton
Member
So you have a 10% grade with about 385 pounds of weight (heavy!). Doing some math: v = 500w/ (10% * 9.8m/s^2 * 175kg) = 2.9m/s = 10.5km/hr = 6.5mph. (I am not taking account the slight power loss of the chain/gears nor the air or rolling resistance, but these would be much, much less than the uphill energy at this speed, so you might slow down to 10km/hr or 6mph.) That should work with the gearing of most e-bikes; it would fit 1st gear at a cadence 70RPM with my Gazelle Arroyo which is still within an efficient sweet spot for the motor, meaning most of its power goes to output and a minority to heat, so I wouldn't expect overheating. So, it wouldn't make it up the hill with that much weight very fast, but it would make it up, while you would be walking (and pushing) a conventional bike.
With a more reasonable weight you could get a better speed or climb a steeper (15%) grade.
Feliz
Well-Known Member
Hi Ravi, you would be correct, it was at least a couple years ago when I test rode the bike. Thanks.
Here's another motor review, interesting that they rate the Brose over the TQ. I ride my friends Brose equipped Specialized Levo a lot and have to admit to really liking it, they really have got the Brose tuning dialled in. I find the TQ powerful but crude, kind of like the BBS02.
The best eMTB motor of 2021 – The 8 hottest motors in test
Which ebike motor is best? We tested seven of the most important motors in our group test and tell you what it’s all about on the trail.
I've ridden at least half of these motors - none of the them come close to the Brose S. Brilliant German engineering. I what real-world eMTB environment do you need more that 11 gears and 105 NM of torque?
Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
That is a real scenario for some people, there are some threads where members are asking - “What ebike for long steep hill/275lb rider” ?
I sometimes do ride some steep hills with the ebike and when is fully loaded ( xtra battery/backpack-total of ~300lbs weight) i wished that it had a minimum 750watts motor(it has a 500watts/700-860watts peak in level 4 or 5) + min. 750wh battery(had a 600wh battery ).
It can climb it fast > 10mph in PAS 4/5 , high cadence > 75RPM , but at huge expense of WH drain.
But 4-5years ago a reg. bat. Had 400-416wh. Slowly manufacturers are paying attention and improving this technology.
steve mercier
Well-Known Member
If reliability counts Bafang is not at near the top of my list. Yesterday I spoke with the service manager at a LBS that specializes in Ebikes and I asked him what he felt were the most and least reliable in his experience. He said they just returned a bunch of bikes with Bafang motors and put them as the least reliable of the bikes they sell. He also said the Specialized bikes with Brose motors were his personal favorites.1- Bafang Ultra
2-Tq
3-Sachs
All others are disqualified for not providing enough torque
But really at 3.9kg TQ is the clear winner. TQ race version has 920watts.View attachment 38125
And then Sachs Rs is very close 2nd, is between those 2. But if ebike manufacturers don’t install them then it’s a market manipulation on behalf of Bosch/Brose/Yamaha.
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Ebiker01
Well-Known Member
I remember that Court himslef or was it Micah from electrek.com did a review on motors(rear/middrive) and they’ve also had Bafang as unreliable with lower wattage then claimed and made with cheap Chinese parts.
On the other hand Dapu which is also made in China has Japanese parts and is regarded really well !
Dapu is on Bh ebikes besides Brose/Yamaha , etc and i never had a single issue in 7-8000miles(i lost the display once and with that the exact mileage) .
