What's holding back the e-bike boom? Research, safety, and bias (article)

[fooferdoggie]

14,000 miles ridden within the warranty period.
The motor was replaced under warranty.
Tell us what brand of bike this was and the brand of the motor please.
I must say this sounds like a fairy tale to me.

no maybe 12,000 miles ridden on warranty. the bike was 2 months out of warranty and at 14,000 miles and bosch replaced the motor for free. At that time i was riding about 9000 miles a year. it was a bulls bike with a bosch performance speed motor. this is right before the motor was found rusted. in a little less then 4 years I had 14k on this bike 13,000 on our e tandem and 9000 on this bikes replacement.

 

[chunk]

I don't care what the vast majority of people do, I know I dig e-bikes and am ready to upgrade. My cheap entry level e-bike is still going good after 3 years of owning it, but I've identified likes and dislikes and want a new one. Between the e-bike and my motorcycles I hardly ever need to get in the cage. Being in SoCal doesn't hurt either with such good riding weather most days, 84 F forecast for today. Ride on.

 

[Chargeride]

I went two years without a car, motorbiking everywhere.
Eventually the weather turned and I bought a pile of crap off a friend, boy was it nice being warm on freezing mornings, but I have long lost any interest in cars, I drive an old van and always will.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

year over year i continue to see more ebikes on the bike paths and in the bike lanes, it will be fun to see this year as the weather turns nice in illinois how many new ebikes are out there on the paths. i know i'm excited to get mine out more frequently now that the weather is turning even for short little errands to get more fresh air. as i ride more and more, i do wonder if bike lanes aren't the right move but rather larger and wider sidewalks so you are away from the cars. i've seen and ridden a few of those lately and they feel so much safer than having a car brush my left arm.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

year over year i continue to see more ebikes on the bike paths and in the bike lanes, it will be fun to see this year as the weather turns nice in illinois how many new ebikes are out there on the paths. i know i'm excited to get mine out more frequently now that the weather is turning even for short little errands to get more fresh air. as i ride more and more, i do wonder if bike lanes aren't the right move but rather larger and wider sidewalks so you are away from the cars. i've seen and ridden a few of those lately and they feel so much safer than having a car brush my left arm.

Everyone's safety counts. In Caifornia, it's generally illegal to ride on sidewalks that aren't designated MUPs. And I agree with that.

Here in coastal SoCal, the pedestrians generally scare me more than the cars. I want both of them out of my bike lanes, just as the law requires.

But it's hard to expect pedestrians and drivers to honor my safe haven when they see cyclists invading theirs.

 

[Ken M]

Yes we are almost exclusively off road riding with our eMTBs. We see more and more when we are out by virtue of our new focus - ebikes Also we get asked about them frequently in positive and interested ways.

I think that most people see ebikes, just like traditional bikes, as recreation / leisure / fitness oriented instead of for any serious urban mobility which is really where their highest potential lies. It's the sad reality of the industry but besides Stromer no ebike producer has really strives to have a great urban mobility bike in their line-up (spare me that some claim to have a street ebike but they are not transportation grades solution.

 

[stompandgo]

It's the sad reality of the industry but besides Stromer no ebike producer has really strives to have a great urban mobility bike in their line-up (spare me that some claim to have a street ebike but they are not transportation grades solution.

Please elaborate. What is lacking in other brands?

 

[Ken M]

Please elaborate. What is lacking in other brands?

Thick street tires around 2.5' wide for passive suspension like the Schwalbe Moto X (why are most street tires designed to be lite for racing?), No front fork because they are just so the industry gets service money later, 120nM or more mid-drive (so can sustain 20mph up a reasonable hill without huge rider effort), belt drive or really good DD hub motor, comfortable upright riding position with comfortable saddle (with a good motor being in a aero position is less important and urban riding you want to have best visibility and not be tucked down). Stromer has beatiful nice bikes but way too expensive and still uncomfortable saddles and not that upright.

Note: I know some are going to say emotos like the Super 73 are comfortable urban mobility ebikes but they are not a geometry made to pedal and I consider them ruining the industry - a geometry needs to have effective pedaling geometry because humans are effective at slow speeds where motors are less efficient.

Personally I think an ebike needs to be completely rethought for urban mobility but that will need an outside the industry / box thicker. Most road bikes are designed by cyclists for cyclists (people that wear spandex) or worse by marketing types more into gimmicks than good solutions.

It seems most industry focus is on making a world class off-road full suspension ebike because most think of bikes as recreation/leisure/fitness. The oil and auto industries don't want them though of as anything else.

 

[teskow]

I live in the South West desert so weather is usually not an issue bike riding except when it gets to over a hundred degrees and blazing sunshine. Usually it is too hot, too wet, too cold or just so much work (proper attire) for most to get ready to ride a bike just for a two mile ride to get a loaf of bread. Helmets mess up our hair. Now should gasoline go up over $10.00 a gallon like in some countries I am sure there would be a a lot more bicycle riding in the USA. The distances here are usually much further between every day destinations than in some other parts of the world which is also a deterrent.
Excuses, excuses.

 

[stompandgo]

Thick street tires around 2.5' wide for passive suspension like the Schwalbe Moto X (why are most street tires designed to be lite for racing?), No front fork because they are just so the industry gets service money later, 120nM or more mid-drive (so can sustain 20mph up a reasonable hill without huge rider effort), belt drive or really good DD hub motor, comfortable upright riding position with comfortable saddle (with a good motor being in a aero position is less important and urban riding you want to have best visibility and not be tucked down). Stromer has beatiful nice bikes but way too expensive.

That's a whole lotta opinion there. Unless you live in downtown San Francisco, most riders do not need 120 Nm of mid-drive. 85Nm is plenty. Front forks are great for city roads with broken pavement, potholes, sunken sewer covers, and the like. Rigid forks are great for light weight bikes. Belt drives are great until a stone gets caught in it and shreds it, and they only work with hub gearing, which a luxury, not a necessity. Derailleur gearing is just fine.

 

[tomjasz]

What a silly title! By a silly poster. I'm continuing to see an explosion. 12 years ago in Minnesota,
we were a rare sight. Today? I see them constantly in a small city of 27,000

 

[tomjasz]

I think that most people see ebikes, just like traditional bikes, as recreation / leisure / fitness oriented instead of for any serious urban mobility which is really where their highest potential lies. It's the sad reality of the industry but besides Stromer no ebike producer has really strives to have a great urban mobility bike in their line-up (spare me that some claim to have a street ebike but they are not transportation grades solution.

I see at least 20 ebikes daily used for cage replacements. And of course there are nearly as many recreational. There are at least a dozen eBikes I think are suited to urban mobility. But then, I have owned, ridden, built, purchased, eBikes in various configurations since 2014. I had many customers with very nice, oftern expensive bikes that they converted. From 250W 36V middrives to 1500W 30+ MPH rides. I still get all I need out of 250W 2014 motors. (almost true, the Mrs still rides them. I went to the dark side still only 36V 500W)

 

[kevinmccune]

I think that most people see ebikes, just like traditional bikes, as recreation / leisure / fitness oriented instead of for any serious urban mobility which is really where their highest potential lies. It's the sad reality of the industry but besides Stromer no ebike producer has really strives to have a great urban mobility bike in their line-up (spare me that some claim to have a street ebike but they are not transportation grades solution.

a not "bike friendly" town about 45 minutes from yours truly increasingly has ebike transportation for those that lose their driving permits, 2 bikes I had went to that cause.

 

[tomjasz]

for those that lose their driving permits,

I find that somewhat cynical. I'm seeing $4000-$7000 kid haulers around this small city. I believe that ebikes are a choice by somewhat poor folks, finding that even in Minnesota, a decent ebike can replace a car for lots of errands 9 months out of the year. Some data shows that cities with decent bike infrastructure see fewer "junker cages" spewing smoke on the road.

 

[Chargeride]

Id like to see the stats on how many young single idealistic liberals get married have kids and buy an SUV.

 

[kevinmccune]

I parked the car 2008. I do rent a u-haul truck 2 or 4 times a year. Last haul was a 500 lb mower deck. Nearest grocery is 3 blocks: nearest complete grocery 4 miles. I used baskets on a MTB instead of a cargo bike for 10 years. Since 2008 I've lost 53 lb, 50 points chloresterol, 20 bpm resting heart rate, 2 points A1C (diabetes).

dang heavy mowing deck,that's heavier than most riding mowers.!

I find that somewhat cynical. I'm seeing $4000-$7000 kid haulers around this small city. I believe that ebikes are a choice by somewhat poor folks, finding that even in Minnesota, a decent ebike can replace a car for lots of errands 9 months out of the year. Some data shows that cities with decent bike infrastructure see fewer "junker cages" spewing smoke on the road.

thought Obama got rid of the clunkers,I do know many fine used cars were destroyed by this BS!

 

[kevinmccune]

I find that somewhat cynical. I'm seeing $4000-$7000 kid haulers around this small city. I believe that ebikes are a choice by somewhat poor folks, finding that even in Minnesota, a decent ebike can replace a car for lots of errands 9 months out of the year. Some data shows that cities with decent bike infrastructure see fewer "junker cages" spewing smoke on the road.

our regional jail was a "drunk tank" basically many helped fill it by just being a drunk( you cannot sit on your porch and drink a beer in this town,city ,whatever,that being said it saved the lives of many dedicated "alkys".

 

[tomjasz]

I do know many fine used cars were destroyed by this BS!

It was all about boosting efficiency and GDP. Sadly, it failed.
"The "Cash for Clunkers" program acted as a highly regressive redistribution of wealth, effectively transferring taxpayer money up the economic ladder. [1]
Because the government program required participants to purchase a brand-new vehicle to receive the voucher, higher-income, older, and wealthier households overwhelmingly benefited from the subsidies.Conversely, lower-income households were largely priced out of participating and shouldered the long-term negative market externalities. [1, 2, 3]"

 

[Ken M]

That's a whole lotta opinion there. Unless you live in downtown San Francisco, most riders do not need 120 Nm of mid-drive. 85Nm is plenty. Front forks are great for city roads with broken pavement, potholes, sunken sewer covers, and the like. Rigid forks are great for light weight bikes. Belt drives are great until a stone gets caught in it and shreds it, and they only work with hub gearing, which a luxury, not a necessity. Derailleur gearing is just fine.

Try this. Try riding up say a 6-8% grade on a Bosch or Yamaha 250W rated mid drive ebike while trying to maintain 20mph. You quickly discover that takes a significant rider effort to sustain that speed and I would argue that is a problem when using an ebike for urban mobility because if riding to work time is money so average speed matters a lot more that if you just ride for leisure or fitness (ie I don't want the ride time increased because I have to slow to 5mph to get up a hill like that if I don't want to get sweaty).

Sure front forks make an urban ebike rider a bit more comfortably, but I've had very high end forks on the ebikes I commute on (have the 2.5" x 27" Moto X tires I mentioned) and I can not tell a difference in ride quality unless I'm hit potholes or bumbs and that is just an occasional event - the forks add more cost and service than they do value on an urban mobility ebikes (check out most of the Stromer models and they don't have front forks and are consider by most to be the best urban mobility ebikes on the market).

I think a belt getting shredded on an urban mobility ebikes would be a very very rare event such that the lack of servicing is a big bonus. You are right that needing an IGH for a belt is a luxury. Sure derailleurs perform just fine but there is the risk of a lot of wear and chain stretch if the ebike has a high torque mid drive like the Bafang Ultra (sadly that motor is not being integrated on any urban mobility ebikes currently - Sondors had 2 models but not out of business).

 

[jabberwocky]

Try this. Try riding up say a 6-8% grade on a Bosch or Yamaha 250W rated mid drive ebike while trying to maintain 20mph. You quickly discover that takes a significant rider effort to sustain that speed and I would argue that is a problem when using an ebike for urban mobility because if riding to work time is money so average speed matters a lot more that if you just ride for leisure or fitness (ie I don't want the ride time increased because I have to slow to 5mph to get up a hill like that if I don't want to get sweaty).

Sure front forks make an urban ebike rider a bit more comfortably, but I've had very high end forks on the ebikes I commute on (have the 2.5" x 27" Moto X tires I mentioned) and I can not tell a difference in ride quality unless I'm hit potholes or bumbs and that is just an occasional event - the forks add more cost and service than they do value on an urban mobility ebikes (check out most of the Stromer models and they don't have front forks and are consider by most to be the best urban mobility ebikes on the market).

I think a belt getting shredded on an urban mobility ebikes would be a very very rare event such that the lack of servicing is a big bonus. You are right that needing an IGH for a belt is a luxury. Sure derailleurs perform just fine but there is the risk of a lot of wear and chain stretch if the ebike has a high torque mid drive like the Bafang Ultra (sadly that motor is not being integrated on any urban mobility ebikes currently - Sondors had 2 models but not out of business).

As someone who actually bike commuted for 12 years and lived car free for a few years in the middle, I think you have an idealized and largely fictional idea of what utility type cyclists want or need. Which is why there isn't really anything on the market that caters to it.

20mph up an 8% grade for a 200lb rider would take about 2000w sustained. I don't get why that would be a requirement. Most place don't have hills that steep, and where they exist they are short so going 250w up them doesn't really hit your overall commute time much. If you need 2000w of power to get to work on time, I would suggest that bike commuting isn't really for you.

I commuted on several different bikes over the years and none of them had suspension or super wide tires. Maybe the roads in your area are unusually poor. My winter setup had 1.5" semi knobbed tires. Most of my other commuters had standard road tires. If you really need it, a suspension fork with a standard set of tires is probably better for comfort and efficiency than super thick wide tires on a rigid fork. Suspension forks can be tuned and have actual damping circuits. Standard tires have less rolling resistance.

Belts are, IMO, a solution in search of a problem. Maintaining a chain and derailleur drivetrain is not difficult. As stomp said, if you want gears with a belt drive you have to go IGH which has its own costs and drawbacks. My experience MTBing with a belt drive says they are probably going to hold up to 2000w of power even less reliably than a chain (especially with an IGH). And when they do break you are SOTL unless you have an entire spare belt with you.