Two Month Review Of Cervelo Rouvida Rival Road Ebike

[Stefan Mikes]

@rdv please be aware major industry players such as TREK have left the Fazua system for good because of the system unreliability. The manufacturers' new choice has been the TQ system...

Another member recently reported an 80-90W Pr cap for medical reasons.

With the average Pr a way below that! One of my e-bikes of choice has been a Vado SL Gen 1 with a 35 Nm motor. I just ride it slower than my 85 Nm Vado 6.0 allows for.

A measured average rider's power from one of my recent rides. It could even be as low as 47 W (I suffer from leg atherosclerosis).

 

[Blackvipergts]

Wondering if this thread might awaken.

I've started contemplating a switch from a TQ HPRR50 to the Fazua Ride 60. It's my particular age (upper70s) and health (angina) that are not allowing me to draw the TQs full potential. I can't contribute more than 100W for more than a few seconds, or the angina will shut me down entirely. That becomes an issue with the TQ due to its 200% maximum support, which means I only draw a sustainable 200W from the motor, missing out on the 300W stronger riders can take advantage of. (I've pleaded with TQ to allow a 300% maximum assist, without increasing its 300W output, to no avail).

An associated issue is that I generally pedal at relatively low cadences of 50-70 rpm, mostly around 60, which is not best suited to the TQ.

The Fazua Ride 60 seems to overcome these constraints if I understand its operating parameters correctly. I'd appreciate feedback from users of the Ride 60 on whether a setup such as I might start out with is tenable at 60 rpm.
Breeze: 100W input, 100 or 125W maximum support
River: 100W input, 200 or 250W maximum support
Rocket: 100W input, 350W maximum support, possible short boost to 450W

Dreaming?
Thanks, Rob

Hi ,I ride on the Rouvida Cervelo with Fazua Ride 60 for about 9000-10000km/y [5500-6000 ml] mainly on mountain and steep climb over 10%...I'm 72 ,178 cm x 78kg, in 2020 I got 2 stents and due to a cancer I had radioterapie twice...Nevertheless for the time being I'm still in a decent shape [ I never smoke,no alcohol, drogs,mainly vegetarian...]
My set-up on the assistance are:
Breeze 100w/130w [ used at 90%]
River. 180w/170w [ used at 10%]
Rocket 280w/150w [ never used]
On uphill [ gradient from 5% to 10%]in Breeze mode my average HR are between 120-130bpm and HR max limited to 150bpm...
The assistance is consistent and fluid but as for all mid-drive motor linked to the speed cadence : my average is between 60rpm to 75rpm
Honestly speaking I do not believe You could feel a huge difference with TQ50
but I cannot report about the Fazua performance at its max assistance
For what's concern the reliability the only issue I encountered was about engine noise under stress...I got two engines replaced on full warranty without any problem [ all the matter solved in two days]
If I can express my suggestion most probably You could get a better solution with the new Bosch SX but I had not opportunity to test so far comment based only of expert reviews. Good luck and enjoy your ride

 

[stompandgo]

Pinarello dropped the Ride60 in their Nytro road/gravel e-bike line due to unreliability and lack of manufacturer support. They switched to TQ. There are still lots of them out there, though.

What kind of bike do you have now, and if you could have everything, what would it be? We only know what motor you have.

 

[Blackvipergts]

Pinarello dropped the Ride60 in their Nytro road/gravel e-bike line due to unreliability and lack of manufacturer support. They switched to TQ. There are still lots of them out there, though.

What kind of bike do you have now, and if you could have everything, what would it be? We only know what motor you have.

As reported in my previous message the Fazua's assistance has been efficient and extremely fast and this is not only my experience but from other friends of mine.The system is extremely flexible and tunable ,the level of assistance not invasive but concrete...The main issues recorded with the Ride60 have been at the beginning linked to some software bugs, now fully solved via OTA update,and the mentioned noise under stress...Personally I had two engines replaced under Warranty more or less after 5000/6000km/each .
For what's my knowledge, as few friends own Trek with Tq50, some have experienced the same....in other words the so called light motors seems to be more vulnerable or less reliable once very much used on strong ride...much different experience if compared with my previous experience Bosch CX Performance [ Cannondale Topstone Neo 1 Lefty ] ...but weight, drivability, noise...different.
For what I heard from few users the new Bosch SX seems to combine the durability and efficiency with excellent performance and reasonable weight.

 

[rdv]

Thanks for the interest and suggestions.

I presently ride a Trek Domane+ SLR6 with the TQ HPR50. I've logged 8,000 miles on it. Aside from the unusable phantom 300W, and the support erosion due to my low cadence, the only problem with the motor proper has been the rattling noise in stretches when the motor goes underutilized. On slower flat rides I still ride my regular bike.

Loaded with precautionary equipment, the Domane+ weighs 32 lbs. I don't welcome the thought of lifting something heavier onto a high hatchback mounted rack, and plan to stick with lightweight mid drive motor road bikes for as long as possible.

I'm in research mode and have been reading up on other motors. My understanding is that the Bosch SX and Mahle M40 favor strong rider input and high cadences, whereas I'm clearly in the low input and low cadence camp. The Avinox and Ride 60 support low cadences better. While the Avinox M1 and Maxon Air S show great promise, they are not likely to migrate to road bikes any time soon.

The insights in this thread provide encouraging feedback of the Ride 60. It appears that Fazua has come a ways toward solving the reliability problems. I interacted with Fazua some years back and found their responsiveness to be the excellent, to the point of remotely diagnosing and making a replacement motor and replacement battery available, as Blackvipergts also attests. The experience with TQ has been the opposite – scarce outreach and updates, automatic responses promising consideration followed by neglect - no feedback or explanations.

Blackvipergts, congratulations on achieving such an admirable level of power and conditioning. I'm a bit unsure as to which is your input wattage in your set-up.

Again, thanks to all, Rob

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Thanks for the interest and suggestions.

I presently ride a Trek Domane+ SLR6 with the TQ HPR50. I've logged 8,000 miles on it. Aside from the unusable phantom 300W, and the support erosion due to my low cadence, the only problem with the motor proper has been the rattling noise in stretches when the motor goes underutilized. On slower flat rides I still ride my regular bike.

Loaded with precautionary equipment, the Domane+ weighs 32 lbs. I don't welcome the thought of lifting something heavier onto a high hatchback mounted rack, and plan to stick with lightweight mid drive motor road bikes for as long as possible.

I'm in research mode and have been reading up on other motors. My understanding is that the Bosch SX and Mahle M40 favor strong rider input and high cadences, whereas I'm clearly in the low input and low cadence camp. The Avinox and Ride 60 support low cadences better. While the Avinox M1 and Maxon Air S show great promise, they are not likely to migrate to road bikes any time soon.

The insights in this thread provide encouraging feedback of the Ride 60. It appears that Fazua has come a ways toward solving the reliability problems. I interacted with Fazua some years back and found their responsiveness to be the excellent, to the point of remotely diagnosing and making a replacement motor and replacement battery available, as Blackvipergts also attests. The experience with TQ has been the opposite – scarce outreach and updates, automatic responses promising consideration followed by neglect - no feedback or explanations.

Blackvipergts, congratulations on achieving such an admirable level of power and conditioning. I'm a bit unsure as to which is your input wattage in your set-up.

Again, thanks to all, Rob

The Avinox and Mahle M40 are both big beasts of motors so the systems will be heavier, Mahle is very new so not many brands yet and all EMTBs. Avinox has some gravel bike take up, but small brands as of yet. Orbea use the Shimano EP8 in their new gravel bike Denna, it's good on low cadences though a bit heavier then TQ/Fazua etc but has had strong reviews, and yes the Bosch SX seems designed to deliver only in very high cadences.

Any models with the TQ60 as you are familiar with that system already? Would that give you enough power?

 

[stompandgo]

Now that we know that he rides a road bike, I was going to suggest the Denna, even though it's a gravel bike. With Di2, you can do amazing things with the EP8, which is a great mid-drive system. Also look at the Cannondale Synapse Neo Allroad, which uses the 55Nm 600w Bosch Performance Line Sprint motor, which can be user configured for up to 400% assist. Yes, Bosch Performance Line motors like cadence, but with 400% assist, I think that would meet your needs. Worth a try.

 

[rdv]

The Avinox and Mahle M40 are both big beasts of motors so the systems will be heavier, Mahle is very new so not many brands yet and all EMTBs. Avinox has some gravel bike take up, but small brands as of yet. Orbea use the Shimano EP8 in their new gravel bike Denna, it's good on low cadences though a bit heavier then TQ/Fazua etc but has had strong reviews, and yes the Bosch SX seems designed to deliver only in very high cadences.

Any models with the TQ60 as you are familiar with that system already? Would that give you enough power?

The Avinox and Mahle M40 are both big beasts of motors so the systems will be heavier, Mahle is very new so not many brands yet and all EMTBs. Avinox has some gravel bike take up, but small brands as of yet. Orbea use the Shimano EP8 in their new gravel bike Denna, it's good on low cadences though a bit heavier then TQ/Fazua etc but has had strong reviews, and yes the Bosch SX seems designed to deliver only in very high cadences.

Any models with the TQ60 as you are familiar with that system already? Would that give you enough power?

My impression was that the Avinox and Mahle are also compact and light, with power that makes up for any additional grams. As to the HPR60 vs 50, the only gain would be in torque, because the 100W x 200% = 200W maximum assist persists, increasing the wasted watts from 100 to 150 in my case.

Copied from German Velomotion.net, the attached 100W input/max motor output chart, derived from their lab tests, makes the improvement the Ride 60 would make relative to the HPR50 quite clear: 383W vs 168W. I would expect the gap to be even greater at my 60 rpm. Note that the support is measured at the wheel and that nominal motor electrical output results in lower mechanical support at the wheel.

BTW, VeloMotion is a great resource. Though MTB focused it provides useful test and in use information. It has an English version at https://www.youtube.com/@VelomotionEN. The two sites don't overlap entirely.

PS. Apologies. I looked up the Avinox and Mahle weights and they are notably heavier than the TQ and Fazua by ~0.5 kg. That remains easy to overcome given their greater output.

 

[Blackvipergts]

Pinarello dropped the Ride60 in their Nytro road/gravel e-bike line due to unreliability and lack of manufacturer support. They switched to TQ. There are still lots of them out there, though.

What kind of bike do you have now, and if you could have everything, what would it be? We only know what motor you have.

As reported in my previous message the Fazua's assistance has been efficient and extremely fast and this is not only my experience but from other friends of mine.The system is extremely flexible and tunable ,the level of assistance not invasive but concrete...The main issues recorded with the Ride60 have been at the beginning linked to some software bugs, now fully solved via OTA update,and the mentioned noise under stress...Personally I had two engines replaced under Warranty more or less after 5000/6000km/each .
For what's my knowledge, as few friends own Trek with Tq50, some have experienced the same....in other words the so called light motors seems to be more vulnerable or less reliable once very much used on strong ride...much different experience if compared with my previous experience Bosch CX Performance [ Cannondale Topstone Neo 1 Lefty ] ...but weight, drivability, noise...different.
For what I heard from few users the new Bosch SX seems to combine the durability and efficiency with excellent performance and reasonable weight. ItI

My impression was that the Avinox and Mahle are also compact and light, with power that makes up for any additional grams. As to the HPR60 vs 50, the only gain would be in torque, because the 100W x 200% = 200W maximum assist persists, increasing the wasted watts from 100 to 150 in my case.

Copied from German Velomotion.net, the attached 100W input/max motor output chart, derived from their lab tests, makes the improvement the Ride 60 would make relative to the HPR50 quite clear: 383W vs 168W. I would expect the gap to be even greater at my 60 rpm. Note that the support is measured at the wheel and that nominal motor electrical output results in lower mechanical support at the wheel.

BTW, VeloMotion is a great resource. Though MTB focused it provides useful test and in use information. It has an English version at https://www.youtube.com/@VelomotionEN. The two sites don't overlap entirely.

PS. Apologies. I looked up the Avinox and Mahle weights and they are notably heavier than the TQ and Fazua by ~0.5 kg. That remains easy to overcome given their greater output.


View attachment 204398

MahleX20 recently received a firmware update which increased the <nominal torque> making the system more performing.As You surely well know the limit for such kind of solution is related to the <wheel speed > that specifically on steep climb could result difficult to optimise.I rode for a while a BMC RoadMachine AMP 01 very nice ,light weight [ abt 12Kgs=26lbs],excellent drivability, but limited on gradient over 10-12%.So far if You are not scheduling/ planning on Your ride steep or very long climb over 10% ,the MahleX20 can offer a very positive support ,a probably lighter bike more slim and similar to the non assisted...I have not any experience for Avinox.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

As reported in my previous message the Fazua's assistance has been efficient and extremely fast and this is not only my experience but from other friends of mine.The system is extremely flexible and tunable ,the level of assistance not invasive but concrete...The main issues recorded with the Ride60 have been at the beginning linked to some software bugs, now fully solved via OTA update,and the mentioned noise under stress...Personally I had two engines replaced under Warranty more or less after 5000/6000km/each .

In my opinion, the e-bike systems rejected by the industry because of their childhood diseases wont't be accepted by manufacturers again no matter what.
Fancy TREK. The brand gave Fazua a fair chance, invested a lot of money, built the e-Caliber, and then it turned out the Fazua system was a lemon. Would TREK give Fazua yet another chance? I doubt. Same with Mahle x20, the system several manufacturers invested heavily in to produce a lemon.

I wonder @rdv why you have never mentioned Specialized. The SL 1 system was 35 Nm/240W/320 Wh (plus Range Extenders). The new SL 2 system is 50 Nm/320 W, and the battery is either 320 Wh (Creo 2) or 540 Wh (Vado SL 2); 160 Wh Range Extenders are available. Now, I could read a lot of considerations here related to the actually produced motor power. The SL 1.2 motor truly produces 320 Wh max mechanical power, and the user does not need to guess anything... The SL 2 system is simply reliable.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

My impression was that the Avinox and Mahle are also compact and light, with power that makes up for any additional grams. As to the HPR60 vs 50, the only gain would be in torque, because the 100W x 200% = 200W maximum assist persists, increasing the wasted watts from 100 to 150 in my case.

Copied from German Velomotion.net, the attached 100W input/max motor output chart, derived from their lab tests, makes the improvement the Ride 60 would make relative to the HPR50 quite clear: 383W vs 168W. I would expect the gap to be even greater at my 60 rpm. Note that the support is measured at the wheel and that nominal motor electrical output results in lower mechanical support at the wheel.

BTW, VeloMotion is a great resource. Though MTB focused it provides useful test and in use information. It has an English version at https://www.youtube.com/@VelomotionEN. The two sites don't overlap entirely.

PS. Apologies. I looked up the Avinox and Mahle weights and they are notably heavier than the TQ and Fazua by ~0.5 kg. That remains easy to overcome given their greater output.


View attachment 204398

Yes Velomotion are very good. I enjoyed their deep dive into the Mahle M40 system. And yes my point about that system and Avinox being heavy was in relation to lightweight systems. They are regarded as 'full fat' systems and in relation to other full fat EMTB systems like Brose or Bosch CX they seem a bit lighter for the power they produce. Big power in the case of Avinox!

 

[Rás Cnoic]

As reported in my previous message the Fazua's assistance has been efficient and extremely fast and this is not only my experience but from other friends of mine.The system is extremely flexible and tunable ,the level of assistance not invasive but concrete...The main issues recorded with the Ride60 have been at the beginning linked to some software bugs, now fully solved via OTA update,and the mentioned noise under stress...Personally I had two engines replaced under Warranty more or less after 5000/6000km/each .
For what's my knowledge, as few friends own Trek with Tq50, some have experienced the same....in other words the so called light motors seems to be more vulnerable or less reliable once very much used on strong ride...much different experience if compared with my previous experience Bosch CX Performance [ Cannondale Topstone Neo 1 Lefty ] ...but weight, drivability, noise...different.
For what I heard from few users the new Bosch SX seems to combine the durability and efficiency with excellent performance and reasonable weight. ItI

MahleX20 recently received a firmware update which increased the <nominal torque> making the system more performing.As You surely well know the limit for such kind of solution is related to the <wheel speed > that specifically on steep climb could result difficult to optimise.I rode for a while a BMC RoadMachine AMP 01 very nice ,light weight [ abt 12Kgs=26lbs],excellent drivability, but limited on gradient over 10-12%.So far if You are not scheduling/ planning on Your ride steep or very long climb over 10% ,the MahleX20 can offer a very positive support ,a probably lighter bike more slim and similar to the non assisted...I have not any experience for Avinox.

This was referring to the new mid drive Mahle M40 system not the X35/X20 lightweight hub motors.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

In my opinion, the e-bike systems rejected by the industry because of their childhood diseases wont't be accepted by manufacturers again no matter what.
Fancy TREK. The brand gave Fazua a fair chance, invested a lot of money, built the e-Caliber, and then it turned out the Fazua system was a lemon. Would TREK give Fazua yet another chance? I doubt. Same with Mahle x20, the system several manufacturers invested heavily in to produce a lemon.

I wonder @rdv why you have never mentioned Specialized. The SL 1 system was 35 Nm/240W/320 Wh (plus Range Extenders). The new SL 2 system is 50 Nm/320 W, and the battery is either 320 Wh (Creo 2) or 540 Wh (Vado SL 2); 160 Wh Range Extenders are available. Now, I could read a lot of considerations here related to the actually produced motor power. The SL 1.2 motor truly produces 320 Wh max mechanical power, and the user does not need to guess anything... The SL 2 system is simply reliable.

It's more complicated than that. There was definitely a Fazua/Trek problem for US customers with warranty fulfilment, that looked not as bad in Europe where warranty replacement ran smoother probably because Fazua is European & local. I suspect Trek was partly at fault directing US customers to Fazua directly instead of taking on responsibility themselves and Fazua not having a US HQ etc potentially leaving customers high and dry. The Ride50 had a lot of problems but you still find many bikes selling today with it & the Ride60 seems much more stable and is also on many bikes. I'll say it again- all motors can break down, the key is brands having solid & fast warranty backup and increasingly 'right to repair' with availability of spare motor parts and permission for third parties to repair them once out of warranty. Looking at you Shimano with your proprietary parts, refusal to allow a fix and 'land fill' EP8/EP6 motors.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

. Same with Mahle x20, the system several manufacturers invested heavily in to produce a lemon.

One of the most popular & widely sold lightweight systems out there.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

." Same with Mahle x20, the system several manufacturers invested heavily in to produce a lemon."

One of the most popular & widely sold lightweight systems out there.

I wonder what @Yako's opinion on that would be.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I wonder what @Yako's opinion on that would be.

It's a fact that it's on many models of bikes and is very widely sold. Just look it up.

As a long time owner of an Orbea Gain and many YT videos about the Mahle hub motors including building his own range extender he frequently points out the pros & cons. But the fact is Mahle sell a lot of hub motors.

Road bike & gravel brands like them because the engineering is easier & cheaper for them then the changes needed to implement a mid drive into a frame and by and large the system is simple and pretty reliable and the overall bike still pretty light.

I don't like them myself because: Hills.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I could watch recent videos of Yako zooming hills in Spain on mid-drives: TQ and Bosch SX. Perhaps because many manufacturers have got enough experience to build mid-drive e-bikes and got proper motors. I wonder if Yako would ride a hub drive Mahle e-bike aGain

Enough Power concept for x20 powered Orbea Gain. For me, these numbers mean a symbolic assistance and a very strong rider (certainly not a heart attack survivor). The assistance levels are 100%, 75%, 50%. Any mid-drive has the max assist greatly over 100%. For example, the Specialized SL 1.2 motor has max assistance of 230%,

While Orbea Denna (gravel) is Shimano EP8 RS, a mid-drive.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I could watch recent videos of Yako zooming hills in Spain on mid-drives: TQ and Bosch SX. Perhaps because many manufacturers have got enough experience to build mid-drive e-bikes and got proper motors. I wonder if Yako would ride a hub drive Mahle e-bike aGain


View attachment 204418
Enough Power concept for x20 powered Orbea Gain. For me, these numbers mean a symbolic assistance and a very strong rider (certainly not a heart attack survivor). The assistance levels are 100%, 75%, 50%. Any mid-drive has the max assist greatly over 100%. For example, the Specialized SL 1.2 motor has max assistance of 230%,

While Orbea Denna (gravel) is Shimano EP8 RS, a mid-drive.

Again, I don't particularly like Mahle hub motors, or a better way to put it is I don't use them because of the 20%+ hills my daily rides take me over.

But what I said was that Mahle sell bucket loads of hub motors- & to some very happy customers.

I think what is a bit weird about your well displayed dislike of Mahle hub motors is you live somewhere incredibly flat, the only hill you ever mention is a motorway ramp. The X35 or X20 would be ideal for you, helping with headwinds and keeping the speed up. You should test ride one, try it out on your favourite roads & report back how it rides.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I think what is a bit weird about your well displayed dislike of Mahle hub motors is you live somewhere incredibly flat, the only hill you ever mention is a motorway ramp.

Sudovia, or the most northeastern area of Poland consists of steep hills only. I do race there. Varmia and Mazuria are hilly, too. A 50 mile Sudovia ride requires over 1400 m elevation gain.

Poland is a way greater than just the central Mazovia (or "Flatpoland"). Our southern neighbours are montane countries.

The Poland's South is all mountains, some of them high ones (Tatra, Sudety, Bieszczady). Just to mention the highest peak of Bieszczady, Tarnica, which is higher than Ben Nevis I once climbed for 1727 m elevation gain on a 60 km outward leg of the trip.

I showed that the assist of Mahle x20 ends at 100% rider's power (1x). I need the 1x assist as ECO but SPORT and TURBO require more. My Vado SL with the mountain gearing is capable to handle relatively short 10% inclines. My Vado 6.0 has the assist up to 320% and it provides the peak power of 520 W. I need that e-bike for serious climbs, and had several impressive of them on my holidays.