Going to upgrade my rig for crossing Rocky mts on paved roads--would you comment plz?

[Wallykl]

Hello again. I introduced myself last month as a new to e-biking, older user with weak legs and a bad back. I assembled the cheapest kit I could with a BBSO2b motor and I have a few 100 miles on it now. I've learned some things through this experience and along with reading these forums. I have upgraded to a suspension stem and seat post and have been very happy with that. I am planning on upgrading to more upright handlebars soon.

Next fall I want to attempt a partial cross-country trip starting out West coast--heading east. The 2 biggest issues I foresee in my ability to complete this trip will be my wattage consumption, and my fitness level at the time of the trip. I plan on bringing a pair of 52V-20ahr's.

Some basics to know about me before you answer would be that: I am 5 foot 11" and 240 lbs. pretty chunky. I am 65 years old with 2 back interventions and fairly weak legs. My current riding experience is in the flatlands of Minnesota where a steep hill may only go for 100 to 300 yd distance.

The 3 biggest upgrades I perceive needed are for my comfort and improving my batterys duration/wattage use. They are:

Torque output
My current Bafang can put out 130 Nm max. Would I benefit from jumping up to something like a BBSHD, or would I just consume more wattage for the extra torque on long climbs? The reason I perceive I need this extra torque is because I already use a little bit of throttle boost with my PAS on 4 (I have it set for 9 levels). And, these local Minnesota hills are nothing like the gradients I will find in Idaho and Montana?

Bicycle gearing
I'm currently using the standard Bafang chain ring with an 8 speed 11- 32 cassette. I'm fairly convinced that changing the chain ring and going to at least a 40 tooth or greater cog in back would be necessary?

Tire size
I'm currently running road tires on my set up. A 700 x 25 on the front and a 700 x 32 in the rear. Although I don't plan any gravel riding, I'm sure there will be times when I have to ride across loose substrate or maybe take a short gravel detour. I've also found that a bit of comfort can be gained if I change to wider tires-- but am I going to see enough comfort changing to a 40 wide on front and back wheels? And at what wattage price might I pay (meaning lost mileage for me) in return for the extra comfort?


Thank you so much if you'd be willing to comment on any of these issues and your past experience.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Many good questions, many of which only you will be able to answer from experience you gain before this ambitious trip.

I recommend using the route planning side of the RideWithGPS cycling app to play with potential routes through the Rockies. You'll be able to see their elevation profiles and the gradients involved and compare them with your local hills. In satellite view, you'll also be able to preview the available bike infrastructure or lack thereof.

As you get more experience on local hills, you'll get a better idea of what you'll be up against in the mountains.

At 240 lb with "weak" legs, battery range will be a bigger issue than usual for this kind of trip. You'll need to do as much of the climbing work as you can on a routine basis. And for that, you'll need mountain gearing — e.g., an 11-50t cassette with a 38-40t chainring. Climbing ground speeds will be slow in the lowest gears, but it's either that or a high battery consumption rate that you may not be able to sustain logistically.

 

[edobici_forza]

Yes, changing to a 40mm tire will be dramatically more comfortable than a 25mm wide tire...not only on gravel but on the pavement as well. But many questions...

Is there frame clearance for a 40? can your wheels mount a 40mm?
Gearing. I agree with Jeremy, your current gearing is not for hill climbing, especially given your statement of having weak legs. It is not is simple as just changing your cassette to one which included a 40t cog, your derailleur needs to be compatible with the total chain wrap of largest cogs.
Since you are on a multiple day trip you likely will be packed, right? So that adds to your system weight. your 240lbs and bike and gear/water = system weight, this will affect the draw on your battery. but the tire size is the most concerning to me. You need to research bike packing set ups.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

You need to research bike packing set ups.

Agree, better to start with a deep dlve there and then come back with narrower questions relating to the ebike angle.

One good resource:

Home - CYCLINGABOUT.com

www.cyclingabout.com

No ebike coverage last I looked, but most of the challenges you'll face on a trip like this won't be ebike-specific.

 

[edobici_forza]

Wally, I just saw your 2nd post https://forums.electricbikereview.com/threads/no-e-bikes-allowed.58101/
Can you summarize your trip into a few bullet points because of your statement quoted below (I don't have time to read 5 pages on that thread)

Planning a west coast to mid USA trip next summer on my new creation (1500-2000 miles). My plan is to find a route that allows for 50-100 miles/day travel

That amount of mileage even for an experienced bike rider is quite a bit, if traveling unsupported for that distance. Maybe I am missing something? Are you only traveling with your DIY eBike conversion or driving with an ebike and will do day bike trips along the way?

 

[Wallykl]

Thankyou all for input.

I was thinking of using my current frame-the specialized crossroads in my pic. If disc brakes are deemed a necessity by me--I'll just buy a different frame/fork and do a new build. Currently I was thinking of changing to a dual pivot rim brake for this trip the current Specialized frame I have.

I'd possibly upgrade motor for more torque. Pondering the value of more torque vs increased wattage consumption? Perhaps after reading your responses--I'd be best served to change to a larger cassette and smaller chain ring now-and after a time, decide if that gearing with the current BBSO2b needs more torque for my fitness level?

Yes current frame can accommodate wider tires.
I'd just plan on getting wider wheels if needed.

I'd probably have to leave the 8 speed cassette to get to a 50 tooth/or larger cog. Although I see Microshift has a 8 speed, 12-50 tooth cassette with their own proprietary derailleur and shifter.

I don't even mind carrying 3 batteries that size--but it would take more than an overnight to get all 3 back to 100% for the next day! (hence my prior question on safely increasing charging amps).

Logistics of the trip as I see it:
--This is a solo trip. I have decades of solo hiking, canoing trip Experience. I know what it takes to physically sustain myself.

--no day trips. I rent a car near home. Toss my ebike in, drive 2-3 days somewhere near desired starting point that has same rental company, and do a one-way drop off of vehicle. Start peddaling baby. If I fail, tire, or just get bored, wreck it---I have no fear of failure. Ive failed at many endurance things Ive attempted. ( Im in it for experience, joy if success, but mainly the education that one recieves on these types of activities). If I quit--just get to the nearest car rental and drive home on a one way drop off.


Thx again for your inputs. Looks like my 1st change to my current rig will be largest cassette and smaller chain ring I can get now this fall. Then hit the biggest hills I can find before our 6 months of winter settles in. I also think that this exercise would also answer my question about the need to upgrade to a more powerful motor.

I live in the N Minn. woods. This is a biker paradise along with all winter sports and summer water sports. Over 40 yrs I have observed 6 bicyclist deaths. All were experienced more than a newbie. All were killed by motorists, all but 1 were killed by very impaired motorists. The worst was a 30 yr experienced peddler on a week long ride, flattened and dragged by a young lady on MJ, Coke, alcohol. He was well into the shoulder, had safety lights, helmet, rear mirror, with a group. But the impaired driver still cancelled his ticket. THIS--is my biggest fear on a cross country trip.

I will check your web sites mentioned.
You 2 have been helpful!

 

[edobici_forza]

Agree, better to start with a deep dlve there and then come back with narrower questions relating to the ebike angle.

One good resource:

Home - CYCLINGABOUT.com

www.cyclingabout.com

No ebike coverage last I looked, but most of the challenges you'll face on a trip like this won't be ebike-specific.

A coincidence, with this thread I was thinking of Ryan Van Duzer, who was riding a Bruzer which is on the Cyclingabout site. I love watching this type of adventure riding videos from around the world. this video happens to be on trails I have ridden on my MTB in the SF Bay Area.

I do not do this type of riding myself but love watching the vids. I have done two different 6 day supported bike rides in Italy and Sicily, a different experience.

 

[edobici_forza]

Thankyou all for input.

I was thinking of using my current frame-the specialized crossroads in my pic. If disc brakes are deemed a necessity by me--I'll just buy a different frame/fork and do a new build. Currently I was thinking of changing to a dual pivot rim brake for this trip the current Specialized frame I have.

I'd possibly upgrade motor for more torque. Pondering the value of more torque vs increased wattage consumption? Perhaps after reading your responses--I'd be best served to change to a larger cassette and smaller chain ring now-and after a time, decide if that gearing with the current BBSO2b needs more torque for my fitness level?

Yes current frame can accommodate wider tires.
I'd just plan on getting wider wheels if needed.

I'd probably have to leave the 8 speed cassette to get to a 50 tooth/or larger cog. Although I see Microshift has a 8 speed, 12-50 tooth cassette with their own proprietary derailleur and shifter.

I don't even mind carrying 3 batteries that size--but it would take more than an overnight to get all 3 back to 100% for the next day! (hence my prior question on safely increasing charging amps).

Logistics of the trip as I see it:
--This is a solo trip. I have decades of solo hiking, canoing trip Experience. I know what it takes to physically sustain myself.

--no day trips. I rent a car near home. Toss my ebike in, drive 2-3 days somewhere near desired starting point that has same rental company, and do a one-way drop off of vehicle. Start peddaling baby. If I fail, tire, or just get bored, wreck it---I have no fear of failure. Ive failed at many endurance things Ive attempted. ( Im in it for experience, joy if success, but mainly the education that one recieves on these types of activities). If I quit--just get to the nearest car rental and drive home on a one way drop off.


Thx again for your inputs. Looks like my 1st change to my current rig will be largest cassette and smaller chain ring I can get now this fall. Then hit the biggest hills I can find before our 6 months of winter settles in. I also think that this exercise would also answer my question about the need to upgrade to a more powerful motor.

I live in the N Minn. woods. This is a biker paradise along with all winter sports and summer water sports. Over 40 yrs I have observed 6 bicyclist deaths. All were experienced more than a newbie. All were killed by motorists, all but 1 were killed by very impaired motorists. The worst was a 30 yr experienced peddler on a week long ride, flattened and dragged by a young lady on MJ, Coke, alcohol. He was well into the shoulder, had safety lights, helmet, rear mirror, with a group. But the impaired driver still cancelled his ticket. THIS--is my biggest fear on a cross country trip.

I will check your web sites mentioned.
You 2 have been helpful!

Wally, great to get some more background on the ride you are planning. Looks like a great challenge. Sounds like you are open to your bike set up. Hopefully your research and suggestions by others familiar with the type of riding you will be doing will give you suggestions. The amount of mileage per day based on the elevation should be able to be calculated with apps like RidewithGPS.
Definitely increase your visibility with both lights and brights so reduce your stress when on the road. The Garmin radars are highly recommended, I use one.
But key is your on bike endurance level. So, ride ride ride! Enjoy the journey!

 

[Chargeride]

I'd stick with the bbso2, its more than enough with it being mid drive, have you tested it on harsher terrain because geartrain issues expose themselves quite quickly when you need them the least.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

A coincidence, with this thread I was thinking of Ryan Van Duzer, who was riding a Bruzer which is on the Cyclingabout site. I love watching this type of adventure riding videos from around the world. this video happens to be on trails I have ridden on my MTB in the SF Bay Area.

I do not do this type of riding myself but love watching the vids. I have done two different 6 day supported bike rides in Italy and Sicily, a different experience.

Thanks for the fond memories of my MTB days in Marin in the mid-1980s. Lots of familiar places in that video. Probably lost a few neurons rattling my brains out down Mt. Tam descents on my rigid Stumpjumper.

 

[indianajo]

If you are riding on paved roads, 32 tooth rear sprocket is enough, IMHO. Even in Colorado and Utah on marked state routes I saw nothing steeper than 6%. Roads with greater than 10% grades should be marked on RandMcNally ( the big $20 one, not the "easy to read" one) as "4 wheel drive only". I encounter 15% on paved county roads here in Indiana, and that requires a 32 tooth rear behind a 24 front in spring when I am weak. By June I never go below 28 tooth. I weigh 160, I carry 20 lb tools water & rain gear, plus 60 lb groceries on the uphill leg to my summer camp. Gross weight 330 lb. All my 13000 miles are on 52-57 mm tires at 55 PSI. I ride Kenda/Giant knobbies to reduce flats, which works if the knobs are taller than 3/32". I carry 3 tubes and a Panaracer fold up tire, but it does not run round and gets replaced when I get to maintenance base.
The big problem with mountains is motor cooling. Mid drives are required IMHO. My 1000 w geared hubs are fine for 77 short hills up to 15%, but the Rockies & Sierras have very long grades that will require the motor cool itself better than a geared hub. The down side of mid-drives, all require a display on the handlebar, which IMHO is too sensitive to rain for an outdoor rider. My ebikeling display certainly shorted out. Scooter controllers don't require a display, only an on-off switch.
I would stay with the 8 speed rear sprocket. You have a chance of the 3/32" wide chain lasting 1000 miles at least. Changing chains is a **** IMHO. Takes me longer than changing a motor laced into a wheel. 11 speed chains could require service possibly every 500 miles. Plus changing worn sprockets is not for the rider with a portable tool kit. I can't get an old sprocket off without a park freewheel adapter, a 1" inpact sprocket, and a DeWalt electric impact wrench.
Charging has kept me from venturing cross country overnight. Most motels and businesses are now prohibiting all bicycles inside due to the fire risk. Not just ebikes. Carrying a battery stealthily into a motel room and charging there is low risk but high penalty if you are wrong. I charge my lithium ion battery outdoors, sheltered from rain by a plastic pan if necessary. Buying a NIMH battery would lower the risk, but motel managers do not specialize in science knowledge. They just ban everything bicycle. Insurance companies the same way. You violate regulations and burn down a building, you pay for it, not the insurance company.
Camp grounds have electrical outlets on the sites. Besides filling up in the travel season, I detest the stink of KOA etc with the wastewater tank dump on the lot.
It is possible motels on the most northern route,US 2, have electrical outlets in the parking lot to power the block heaters in the winter. Definitely not on the US 40 & US 50 routes. The problem there is finding a way to secure the battery while you are in the room and it is alone out there. On my home and summer camp sites, the batteries are hidden behind bulidings while charging as I sleep. No such luck in a motel parking lot.
If you do get on the road across the country, have fun.

 

[Wallykl]

If you are riding on paved roads, 32 tooth rear sprocket is enough, IMHO. Even in Colorado and Utah on marked state routes I saw nothing steeper than 6%. Roads with greater than 10% grades should be marked on RandMcNally ( the big $20 one, not the "easy to read" one) as "4 wheel drive only". I encounter 15% on paved county roads here in Indiana, and that requires a 32 tooth rear behind a 24 front in spring when I am weak. By June I never go below 28 tooth. I weigh 160, I carry 20 lb tools water & rain gear, plus 60 lb groceries on the uphill leg to my summer camp. Gross weight 330 lb. All my 13000 miles are on 52-57 mm tires at 55 PSI. I ride Kenda/Giant knobbies to reduce flats, which works if the knobs are taller than 3/32". I carry 3 tubes and a Panaracer fold up tire, but it does not run round and gets replaced when I get to maintenance base.
The big problem with mountains is motor cooling. Mid drives are required IMHO. My 1000 w geared hubs are fine for 77 short hills up to 15%, but the Rockies & Sierras have very long grades that will require the motor cool itself better than a geared hub. The down side of mid-drives, all require a display on the handlebar, which IMHO is too sensitive to rain for an outdoor rider. My ebikeling display certainly shorted out. Scooter controllers don't require a display, only an on-off switch.
I would stay with the 8 speed rear sprocket. You have a chance of the 3/32" wide chain lasting 1000 miles at least. Changing chains is a **** IMHO. Takes me longer than changing a motor laced into a wheel. 11 speed chains could require service possibly every 500 miles. Plus changing worn sprockets is not for the rider with a portable tool kit. I can't get an old sprocket off without a park freewheel adapter, a 1" inpact sprocket, and a DeWalt electric impact wrench.
Charging has kept me from venturing cross country overnight. Most motels and businesses are now prohibiting all bicycles inside due to the fire risk. Not just ebikes. Carrying a battery stealthily into a motel room and charging there is low risk but high penalty if you are wrong. I charge my lithium ion battery outdoors, sheltered from rain by a plastic pan if necessary. Buying a NIMH battery would lower the risk, but motel managers do not specialize in science knowledge. They just ban everything bicycle. Insurance companies the same way. You violate regulations and burn down a building, you pay for it, not the insurance company.
Camp grounds have electrical outlets on the sites. Besides filling up in the travel season, I detest the stink of KOA etc with the wastewater tank dump on the lot.
It is possible motels on the most northern route,US 2, have electrical outlets in the parking lot to power the block heaters in the winter. Definitely not on the US 40 & US 50 routes. The problem there is finding a way to secure the battery while you are in the room and it is alone out there. On my home and summer camp sites, the batteries are hidden behind bulidings while charging as I sleep. No such luck in a motel parking lot.
If you do get on the road across the country, have fun.

 

[Wallykl]

Thx Indianajo for the detailed opinion. I posted here few weeks back about "no e-bikes allowed".

I just grabbed a 36t chainring to swap with my current cassette gearing. I can see it giving me assist in ascending, but slightly concerned it will steal from my top end if I need to make time.

You mentioned "motor cooling". is there a standard way to assess when this is needed? is it simply a touch test, or do you apply an exterior thermometer to the casing?

I'll be interested to see how my display handles rain? Wonder if I'll have to carry a backup display on this trip as well?

Also, big trend here in Minnesota, is to quit allowing any electrical appearing bicycles indoors at the hotel. Interesting though, I'm doing a 200 mile trip next week and 2 of the hotels have no problems with us bringing our bicycles inside (although I didn't imply that some were electric and would be charging).

 

[gromike]

If I were to build a rock solid long distance ebike it would be a rear direct drive hub motor. Select a motor that can climb without overheating. Regen is a big plus on long downhills.

 

[indianajo]

You mentioned "motor cooling". is there a standard way to assess when this is needed? is it simply a touch test, or do you apply an exterior thermometer to the casing?

Geared hub drives as I ride have an air gap between the windings and the case. So air cooling is minimal. Case temperature does not equal winding temperature. Mid drives have the windings touching the case, which makes them cool better. Some brands have a temp sensor as the tenth pin in the middle of of the round 9 pin juli connector. Some controllers can sense that. The ones I have bought do not.
You find out your motor is too hot, by it shorting out before you get to the top. Shorted winding is permanent. I've shorted 4 inferior motors on my trips, usually on grades over 12% near the end of my 30 miles. 2 brands held up. I cannot buy those anymore. The gears or clutch wore out first.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Hello again. I introduced myself last month as a new to e-biking, older user with weak legs and a bad back. I assembled the cheapest kit I could with a BBSO2b motor and I have a few 100 miles on it now. I've learned some things through this experience and along with reading these forums. I have upgraded to a suspension stem and seat post and have been very happy with that. I am planning on upgrading to more upright handlebars soon.

Next fall I want to attempt a partial cross-country trip starting out West coast--heading east. The 2 biggest issues I foresee in my ability to complete this trip will be my wattage consumption, and my fitness level at the time of the trip. I plan on bringing a pair of 52V-20ahr's.

Some basics to know about me before you answer would be that: I am 5 foot 11" and 240 lbs. pretty chunky. I am 65 years old with 2 back interventions and fairly weak legs. My current riding experience is in the flatlands of Minnesota where a steep hill may only go for 100 to 300 yd distance.

The 3 biggest upgrades I perceive needed are for my comfort and improving my batterys duration/wattage use. They are:

Torque output
My current Bafang can put out 130 Nm max. Would I benefit from jumping up to something like a BBSHD, or would I just consume more wattage for the extra torque on long climbs? The reason I perceive I need this extra torque is because I already use a little bit of throttle boost with my PAS on 4 (I have it set for 9 levels). And, these local Minnesota hills are nothing like the gradients I will find in Idaho and Montana?

Bicycle gearing
I'm currently using the standard Bafang chain ring with an 8 speed 11- 32 cassette. I'm fairly convinced that changing the chain ring and going to at least a 40 tooth or greater cog in back would be necessary?

Tire size
I'm currently running road tires on my set up. A 700 x 25 on the front and a 700 x 32 in the rear. Although I don't plan any gravel riding, I'm sure there will be times when I have to ride across loose substrate or maybe take a short gravel detour. I've also found that a bit of comfort can be gained if I change to wider tires-- but am I going to see enough comfort changing to a 40 wide on front and back wheels? And at what wattage price might I pay (meaning lost mileage for me) in return for the extra comfort?


Thank you so much if you'd be willing to comment on any of these issues and your past experience.

As far as the BBS02B... do you know what version. UART or CANbus? UART can be user programmed for a better personal experience.
Curious, why do you use the throttle in PAS 4 instead of going to PAS 5? Mine is set for 9 PAS and typically climb steep hills in 6 with a 46t to 13-32.. though I am lighter.
As for the chainring there's not a lot of options outside of what Bafang offers. LEKKIE has some but they can throw off your chain line as the offset is different from the Bafang stamped chainring.
As for upgrading to the HD I wouldn't unless necessary and that's a question you need to answer for yourself. The BBS02B can be very efficient, especially the UART version.

 

[Wallykl]

Why I use throttle? I'm a newbie.
My version--canbus

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I just grabbed a 36t chainring to swap with my current cassette gearing. I can see it giving me assist in ascending, but slightly concerned it will steal from my top end if I need to make time.

You'll definitely be stealing from the top end. The trick is to find the right compromise for the riding you'll actually be doing. Problem is, you may need more than 8 speeds to get there. Your frame may not accommodate a 12-speed 11-50t cassette with a 38t to 42t chainring, but a gearing like that would probably come close given the weak legs you've told us about.

As for throttles, keep in mind that some of our members just can't conceive of uses beyond getting out of pedaling. Don't need one on my 38 lb fitness/gravel ebike, but really glad my 70 lb utility/commuter ebike has one. And I always pedal with exertion.

 

[Gionnirocket]

A throttle has many useful applications but bike weight has little to do with many of them.
Being a newbie it can be an easy answer to not stalling on a hill. Weak legs and bad back.. it can save you from injury. I don't have those issues but I do have at times potentially weak knees and I'll never own a bike without one. These motors like to spin so having momentum going into a hill helps a lot. Also up PAS to maintain momentum before dropping a gear if necessary. You can always drop PAS afterwards if no longer needed.
It's really hard to know exactly what your needs would be as physical ability adds many variables. But for the journey that you have planned I would build up to it and that will also help you assess the hardware you currently have.
My experience with the BBS02B is that it's very reliable and at least the UART version can be very efficient. Sorry no experience with the CANbus version but from what I understand the later versions are more friendly than the original release. And though I don't use the bike much anymore and it's now my backup... 12,000mi, zero issues and as quiet as day one.

 

[alihyder]

You're really on the right track, and it’s great to see how much thought you’re putting into this. For those long climbs out West, upgrading to a BBSHD would likely be a smart move; it’s stronger, runs cooler, and can handle hills better without you needing to rely so much on the throttle. Swapping out your gearing for a smaller front chainring and a bigger rear cog will make pedaling a lot easier, especially on tough climbs, and that’ll help both your legs and your battery go further. As for tires, going a bit wide, like 38 to 42mm, will give you more comfort and better control, especially on rough patches, and the small hit to range is usually worth it. You've already made some solid upgrades, and with a few more tweaks and a bit of training, you’re setting yourself up for an amazing trip.