Working to put GRIN CA3-DPS + External Shunt onto Lectric ONE

[Tom521]

As the title says I'm working to add a GRIN DPS + External Shunt onto my Lectric ONE.

Why? Because the standard Lectric speed control - tried thumb throttle first then the rotating throttle - both still act like a light switch. Can't accelerate smoothly away from a stop - just a lurch to practically wide-open throttle. Steady speed on throttle only is a joke; bike speed oscillates like a yoyo.

GRIN says that with their CA3-DPS and a Cycle Analyst molded external shunt I can have full and easy control of the throttle's behavior. It's so annoying that it's worth spending some time and money to fix it!

I have the parts in hand. I plan to put the CA3 in series with my throttle output (it's a Hall throttle BTW) and then all I need is battery voltage to the CA3 and I can try it.

I plan to retain the Lectric controller.

Presently stuck looking for battery voltage source!

I can remove and replace the Pinion drive to get battery voltage, or remove and replace the battery holder to accomplish a similar thing.

The CA3 does not need much current to operate in the throttle-only mode - only the voltage from the battery and apparently a very small current. To quote the manual: the heavy red leads are only a packaging consideration and a convenient means to pick up Vbatt+ for CA power and monitoring; they do not need to carry primary controller power.

So here's a question: is there a simpler, easier way to tap into Vbatt+ on the Lectric ONE? Maybe a used or unused plug near the handlebars?

Thank you in advance for any thoughts/ideas!

Tom

 

[RunForTheHills]

Sorry, I haven't taken apart a Lectric One. However, many/most displays have a pin going to them with battery voltage and should also have ground. You may be able to tap into that. You could test that with a multimeter.

 

[6zfshdb]

I'm not sure if Lectric uses a proprietary throttle or not, but most 3 wire Hall sensor throttles operate like this:

If you can access the throttle wiring, you may be able to insert a padding resistor in the circuit to get better throttle response. I did this successfully on my Pedego throttle.

You already have the CA3 though, so this may not be the best option.

 

[Tom521]

6zfshdb,​

Thank you! I installed the ElectricAllWheel (EAW) twist throttle to replace Lectric's thumb lever. No improvement. Interestingly it now feels exactly the same as the Lectric Trike2 750 did - no response at all for the first 10 degrees or so of twist, then hang on!

As soon as all the wiring bits arrive I will check the voltages you kindly posted - EAW told me the throttle is Hall Effect so it should work fine with the new add-in pieces from GRIN.

Probably get going next week unless the shipping delays continue.

RunForTheHills,​

Thank you again - I've ordered enough connectors to almost start a shop - when they get here I plan to follow your suggestion for a VBatt+ source by splicing into the voltage input to the present Lectric screen.

Tom

 

[RunForTheHills]

RunForTheHills,​

Thank you again - I've ordered enough connectors to almost start a shop - when they get here I plan to follow your suggestion for a VBatt+ source by splicing into the voltage input to the present Lectric screen.

Tom

I know the feeling. If you save them in a parts bin and remember you have them, it could save a future purchase.

 

[6zfshdb]

FWIW, I find a twist or thumb throttle is great for starting, especially on a hill if you forget to downshift. However, maintaining a constant speed with one of these throttles, even a properly proportioned one, can get uncomfortable after awhile. After just a few minutes, I get cramps in my thumb or wrist while trying to hold the throttle steady.

As a result, I did some experimenting and found a Hall throttle sensor can be emulated using a series of resistors. If a variable resistor (pot) is used, as in this circuit, speed can be varied, and held in position, by turning a knob. In effect, It's a form of cruise control.

Using this principle, I built a handlebar mounted "black box" speed control that can be switched on or off:

Here's a link to a thread on how it was done:

Adding a Rotary Dial Speed Control

I occasionally get a cramp in my right hand when using my half grip twist throttle. As a remedy, I built this small control box as an alternate way to adjust speed. In doing some research, I discovered a 3 wire hall effect throttle can be emulated with a variable resistor. I wired the control...

forums.electricbikereview.com

 

[Tom521]

Here's my latest message from a thread I'm not sure why I continued...

Update for the end of July (who knew this would be such a low priority???):

I have the CAV3 wired in for power so it comes on when I turn the bike on from the switch on the handlebar.

I have installed a twist throttle that is supposed to be Hall Effect.

My first attempt at wiring the throttle failed - the bike gave error code 008 - it doesn't see the throttle. It turned out to be a bad connection (strike one for the home team.)

The next attempt resulted in the bike not giving the error code (YAY!) but ignoring any throttle input (BOO!) I apparently had wired the ground connection to the CAV3 input and output (strike 2.)

Currently I have a different throttle wire connected to the CAV3 and the bike's throttle now works. Alas, it works the same as it did without the CAV3, i.e., like a light switch; the motor is either off or on - no speed modulation. This is apparently the way Lectric designed this thing...

To test this I removed the CAV3 from the circuit and the throttle response was the same - it turned the rear wheel in light-switch fashion regardless of the PAS setting from 1 to 5. PAS 1 did give a lower speed.

It's as if the CAV3 simply passed its input through to the Lectric ONE controller without tempering it.

Tomorrow I plan to try to see if the input voltage (from the throttle) measures the same as the output voltage from the CAV3. If this happens it would indicate to me that I have to learn how to program the CAV3. I'm trying to get a proportional output from the CAV3 that reflects the throttle position instead of the all-or-nothing version the Lectric controller seems to produce.

If anyone knows how to set up the CAV3 to modulate the throttle input - or even where to begin - it might be a major help!

Tom

I'll continue here because the title seems more fitting

I received more probe attachments today, so I'll try to get the proper throttle pin identification - I think I know what they are but...

 

[Tom521]

It becomes more obvious I need to learn the CAV3 throttle niceties. In re-reading the manual (OK, I'm a slow learner), the throttle default is "Pass through." This is exactly what I experienced!

Now I need to observe the voltages coming from the throttle, and then from the CAV3 output to my controller.

Once I do that there may be a way to get the CAV3 to slow down the throttle's output voltage in a way that is digestible to the controller. Or not...

One step at a time.

Tom

 

[Tom521]

Well...

Checked voltages and learned some things I didn't wish to learn. Ain't that always the way?

First, output from the throttle is from about 0.8V to 4.2V as expected.

Next, the controller runs WFO at any voltage over 1.35.

Finally a softer start can be achieved with the CAV3 by changing the Throttle Up Rate setting from 2.0V to 0.5V.

Where to from here? Think I'll go have some lunch!

Tom

PS: I wonder If I could have the CAV3 slowly sneak up to 1.35V tops? Naaah, probably wouldn't work If I could... Somehow Lectric needs to be responsible and change the controller response to the throttle!

 

[Tom521]

Does anyone know whether the Lectric controller can be programmed using the STM32 ST-LINK software?

 

[PCeBiker]

Just an FYI about proprietary electronics,..

Generally speaking, Every hub motor has three Fat phase wires (usually blue, green and yellow).
The phase wires are Always paired with the same color smaller gauge hal sensor wire that monitors that phase wire.


Proprietary hub motors have been known to mismatch the color code so that you can't match up the wires directly to a standard controller with the standard color code.

 

[PCeBiker]

First, output from the throttle is from about 0.8V to 4.2V as expected.

Next, the controller runs WFO at any voltage over 1.35.

PS: I wonder If I could have the CAV3 slowly sneak up to 1.35V tops?

What about trying to set up your CAV3 so that a throttle input voltage of 0.8V to 4.2V puts out a 0.8V to 1.35V to send to your controller??

Set up your CAV3 to put out a maximum throttle voltage of 1.35V with a 4.2V throttle input?

 

[PCeBiker]

Grin makes a Really Nice Potentiometer speed controller that you could probably use instead of a throttle.

It might be all you need to control your speed because it should comfortably and easily adjust your speed by turning the dial and keeping the output voltage between 0.8V and 1.35V

Aux Pot for Infinite On-the-Fly CA3 Adjustments

CNC'd Aluminum Handlebar Mounted Auxiliary Potentiometer for Infinite On-the-Fly Limit Adjustments of CA3

ebikes.ca

I just use a regular twist throttle myself.
I keep my Aux Pot in with my cigarettes.

 

[Tom521]

I tried to research the controller that Lectric uses in the ONE. Haven't found any information yet. My hope is to find some information about programming it.

I'm searching using the wording on the label that can be seen from a video on their help site that details removing/replacing the controller. Here's the parts I could read:

SUTTO 48V 24A 750W
SCC203483

There appear to be more digits after the 483 but I wasn't able to get them from the video.

Anyone have a suggestion about where I might search?

 

[6zfshdb]

might be easier in the long run to replace the controller with one from Grin.

 

[Tom521]

6zfshdb,​

If this was a straightforward ebike I might agree that replacing the controller is an answer, and maybe in the long run that's the only real answer. Alas, it is a Lectric ONE.

Besides having the usual array of features such as brake lights, brake cutoff switches, front and rear lights including brake lights and so on, it also has an automatic transmission with an electric shifter.

Changing the controller may be akin to throwing Brer Rabbit into the briar patch - "bolts right in" is a sarcastic saying in our garage...

And then there's the garage wall sign I stole from someone on Youtube:

I'm not doing this because it's easy.
I doing this because I thought it would be easy.

The two different Rad bikes we had all were nicely controllable with the throttle alone. Gentle and predictable unless you wanted things to happen suddenly. No problem holding a steady speed using the throttle only. Drawback for both of the Rad ebikes was they were way too heavy for us - we have lots of birthdays and need very light, low bikes and constant pedaling may not be practical (read: pain-free.) The Lectric ONEs are 20+ pounds lighter.

Sadly both of the Lectric bikes (actually the 750 Trike2 and the ONE) didn't operate their throttles the same way as the Rads did. The Lectric throttles are light switches - full on or off - nothing in between. And shame on you if you want to hold a steady speed using just the throttle. Buck and shudder all the way.

So my objective here may be impossible with the data I have so far. Lectric has said, in so many words, "operating as designed and we can't (won't) change it."

Equally sadly, I belong to (and am a charter member of) the We Don't Give Up Easy Club.

So I'm still looking for an answer - I really like the ONE - it's lighter and therefore more easily portable and rides smoothly so it does almost all I'd like an ebike to do.

I'll just keep looking at it and thinking about it and see if I can come up with some kind of answer. Your suggestion may be correct in the long run - it just won't be very easy to try.

Tom

 

[PCeBiker]

,.. and constant pedaling may not be practical (read: pain-free.)

I'll just keep looking at it and thinking about it and see if I can come up with some kind of answer. Your suggestion may be correct in the long run - it just won't be very easy to try.

You could test a Frankenstein controller and just be stuck in whatever gear your transmission is in then use it like a scooter if you'd have to ghost pedal.

If it works, you could find out how the shifter control works by probing the cable and figure out how to operate it manually (with switches or whatever)

It's a hub-drive so gearing and shifting doesn't really matter to the motor.


I never pedal my ebike.
I don't feel guilty about it at all.

 

[Tom521]

PCeBiker,​

Here's a quick look at why it seems problematic. The cables coming out of the present controller are identified by Lectric this way (using their video so connectors are a little hard to ID completely):

1: Wiring harness cable - thick and short, with a black connector
2: Motor cable - thick, black and about 2 feet long with what looks like a 3-pin male connector with external male screw threads
3: Battery plate cable - thick and short, with 2 male pins
4: Rear light cable - thin with a female yellow connector about a foot and a half long
5: Smart shift box - short and thin with a squarish gray connector

Haven't been able to locate a controller that claims to have a cable that will accommodate a Smartshift transmission model c1.6

Other than that, no problem!

Tom

 

[Tom521]

Here ya go,..
Five bucks


.

LOL!

Maybe I could use two of them in series to do the 6-speed Smartshift?

 

[PCeBiker]

Your ebike seemed really cramped for space, but all the connections seem possible?

It's just the Smartshift.
If it's a three wire connector, it's probably a simple pulse of voltage that shifts up one gear at a time then reverses polarity to shift back down.

It could be easy to operate it manually if there's nothing more than a solenoid inside the mechanism?