Does the ADA supersede local restrictions on Ebikes?

i think the line of thinking in this thread is a little misguided. there is no requirement to make natural/outdoor areas accessible to people with disabilities which are fundamentally in conflict with the nature of the outdoor program. if i can’t climb half dome (which I can’t) i am not entitled to have anyone construct a trail on which I can use a motorized vehicle, nor am I entitled to use a motorized vehicle on the bare rock face.

The laws require equal opportunity; they don't require exceptional opportunity. For example, roads, trails, or other areas on national forests and grasslands that are not designated for motorized vehicle use under a forest travel management plan are closed to all motorized vehicles, including those used by people with disabilities.

Access to programs must be viewed through the lens of the entire program, not through the eyes of an individual. Access to the program is to be provided so long as doing so doesn't fundamentally alter the program. That is, providing access doesn't change the primary functions of the program. Allowing motor vehicles in a nonmotorized area would be a fundamental alteration of the recreation program for that area.

if a trail is designed for and allows the use of e-bikes, then those with e-bikes (or with disabilities and e-bikes!) may use it. if the trail does not allow e-bikes, then one’s status of disability does not change that. this is even more stark when the trail does not allow vehicles at all. the idea that you could claim a disability and ride a 20mph class 1 eBike on a pedestrian only trail is just silly. however, you COULD use a wheelchair if the terrain was appropriate, because wheelchairs are designed to mix with pedestrians and thus they don’t “fundamentally alter the program” as described in the federal document quoted above.
 
I have a hard time understanding how a 2 wheel bicycle that requires great balance and that can go 20mph is a mobility device for a disabled person. The 5mph limit makes a lot more sense to me, as well as using a 3 wheel device should also be safer. I love the idea that everyone can get outside and enjoy some mobility, but at 20mph is sure looks like a safety issue for everyone to me.
I am disabled and can ride a bike very well. Are you sure you aren't just limiting your ideas to a narrow view of what you think a disability is? My left hip pops in and out of its socket. It doesn't effect my balance at all. I have a difficult time walking because it hurts when I can't relieve the pressure and is more likely to cause a collapse. With an ebike I can exercise it (which is good if I want to recover, and I do) without having to count on my hip to hold me upright when it's had too much. My back is also borken, and I have a bad knee too that collapses sometimes, and again, exercising it is good. My doctor specifically encourages me to ride an e-bike. I bought a 1000 watt kit back when my state allowed that. A year later it was "illegal" but it kinda sucked anyway. So I went and bought an expensive class 2 bike (would've preferred a class 3 but not locally available quickly. Class 2 couldn't get me up hills even with a 750 watt motor. And when I rode with traffic, cars kept getting just right ahead of me and turning right and I took several spills. Not one of them stopped after they'd hit me. It didn't take long to realize that class 2 bike wasn't going to cut it and I bought a 1500 watt bike online and strated doing the legal research to defend myself. I guarantee you I am very competent at hadnling an e-bike at up to 35 miles an hour and no-one cut mne off weith the right hook anymore. I know the thread is about five miles an hour on trails, and I have no problem with that, I compoletely share M@Robertson's views, he is correct. But the idea that disabled people cannot balance is absurd. A bike that can do 35 is the only SAFE mobility device available to me without serious risk of injury. I just can't imagine how you think disabilty requires a balance problem oir that adults can't handle speeds over 20 mph. Your thinking wants me killed. I'm going to ride an OPDMD at the speed limit on my local surface streets because it's the only thing that works and is SAFE.
 
People do get balance problems and can't ride two-wheelers. Many kinds of disabilities.
As far as going 35mph on an ebike when you're over sixty: vaya con dios.
 
People do get balance problems and can't ride two-wheelers. Many kinds of disabilities.
As far as going 35mph on an ebike when you're over sixty: vaya con dios.
I did not say that no-one with disability has balance problems. I said not everyone who has a disability has balance problems . This was in response to a post that said "I have a hard time understanding how a 2 wheel bicycle that requires great balance and that can go 20mph is a mobility device for a disabled person." He has a hard time understanding, so I'm helping him out and I explained his mistakes. I'm not sure why that upsets you to the point you make stuff up. Who said I was over sixty? I appreciate your concern for my spiritual well being, but I think you;re mocking the idea that two different classes of vehicles traveling at different speeds is inherently dangerous. As I recounted, I got hit by cars doing a right hook in front of me on a class 2 bike. This is on a 35 mph street. Going no more than 20. They get in a hurry to pass, misjudge your speed, and cut you off when they turn in front of you. I had four crashes going 20 mph or less. Once I could match speed, I never had an accident again because cars no longer thought they had to pass me. Never an accident again. So, you can go slower than traffic and think you'll never meet God. I assure you, you will, briefly. Myself? I'm going to match the speed of traffic becasue that's where I have no accidents. You're welcome to them, I don't need them anymore. Really? Over sixty?
 
For the riding that you do you make a great argument for an electric motorcycle. And over sixty was in reference to age.
Motorcycles with pedals are stupid.
 
For the riding that you do you make a great argument for an electric motorcycle. And over sixty was in reference to age.
Motorcycles with pedals are stupid.
I meant age, too. You said "going 35 on an e-bike when you're over sixty," so, yeah, that's about age. 35 mph does not mean an electric motorcycle; an electric moptorcycle ought to do highway speeds Why are you just making up "over sixty" about my age? I mean, I didn't say you were "under nine" just because you sound childish. I'm not "over sixty" just becasue I am reasonable and wise enough to know that I no longer get hit by cars now that I can do 35, and you want to complain and say that I'm wrong? YOU sound like you want me dead.
 
"35 mph does not mean an electric motorcycle"

I suppose it depends on the laws/regulations where you live. Here in Washington it does indeed mean an electric motorcycle. That doesn't mean you can't have one but it does mean that there are reasonable requirements if you do.
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By gosh that's a really slick looking infographic you got there. note: It says "may be" an electric motorcycle, but Washington doesn't have an "e-moto" law that sits in between the 3 class "definition" and the ceiling of the federal definition of an e-bike, unless something really recent went into effect that hasn't hit their online statutes yet that I am completely unaware of. Under the most recent bill I am aware of, the law merely authorizes a commission to recommend definitions for an e-moto. That would explain the "it may be considered" and not yet "is considered" language.

See SENATE BILL 6110 (2026): "(2)(a) The department of licensing must convene a work group to study and recommend a revised statutory framework for electric motorcycles. The department may contract with a third-party consultant for work group support and drafting the new statutory framework."

Washington legislators specifically stripped those four points defining an electric motorcycle from the house version of the bill.

Even by your own measure in Washington state, then, I am riding an e-bike because my bike has operable pedals for primary use and no foot pegs at all, less than 750 mechanical watts, under a "may be" "definition" with only speed of greater than 28 miles an hour alone not fitting the infographic which is not Washington law concerning e-motos; not to mention that state 3 class laws are unconstitutional to the extent they "define" an e-bike AND are unconstitutionally void for vagueness in failing to define what type of watts 3 class refers to. Since my bike is lawful under the federal definition of an e-bike, with a motor of 1 h'p. or less at 15 USC 2085, it cannot be an electric motorcycle simply because it can go 35 m.p.h. when supplemented by pedaling, and that is the case in all fifty states. Perhaps you'll find it useful to stick to actual, instead of pretended, law. especially "e-moto" rules you do not have.

I know, you'll rebut with "no court has said so" but you would still be in error:

Justice Field delivered the definitive, historic quote on this concept in Norton v. Shelby County (1886):

"An unconstitutional act is not a law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; it affords no protection; it creates no office; it is, in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed."

16 Am Jur 2d, Sec. 177 treats it thus::
"Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it."

And since 1803, the rule has been in place that the constitution favors the rights of the individual (here involving the right to travel) in the case where an unconstitutional law might be in conflict:

“A law repugnant to the Constitution is void. An act of Congress repugnant to the Constitution cannot become a law. The Constitution supersedes all other laws, and the individual’s rights shall be liberally enforced in favor of him, the clearly intended and expressly designated beneficiary.”-Marbury v. Madison, (1803)

More recently, this rule has been affirmed very famously in Miranda v. Arizona, (1966), and Miranda is famously mentioned in nearly every cop thriller movie and television show you have ever seen. It has been repeated in numerous cases afterward.

As a MATTER OF FACT you must have heard that recently the Washington High Court is in the news "legalizing drugs" (they did not, the legislature failed to outlaw them) and NOW clerks of the court statewide are offering refunds for fines paid in the past precisely becasue they acted under an unconstitutional law. That's because Washington drug laws were void ab initio (void from the start) and no-one is pretending these laws were only invalidated going forward; no, the courts had no authority from the beginning. Here "...bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it," is in action before your very eyes and you have no clue what you are seeing. I think you're stuck on autopilot and not paying attention.


I am amazed how many people are so unaware of a core civic principle that has been around since 1803 or are aware but unable to see its relevance, or just ignore it.

Reading an infographic does not substitute for a valid understanding of law, but it does illustrate your cartoonish, uninformed approach. You didn't look any further than a cartoon. You're pitching softball and I'm hitting hardball.

And you still haven't explained why you assigned an age to me of over 60.
 
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At the end of the day, an ebike traveling over 28mph utilizing motor power is not a legal ebike.

As far as the over 60 thing: you're doing long posts mid-week. Fits the profile of someone who's not pulling the plow. But the actual reason for my throwing that into the post was that a high speed bike wreck for an older person is a life altering, if not ending, event.
 
I haven't assigned you any age.
If you're riding over 28mph in Washington you can try your reasoning with an LEO if/when they decide to enforce the new laws. I can say that locally I haven't seen any of the illegal appearing bikes on the road while they had been commonly sighted before. Personally I'm all for these common sense regulations.

From a Washington state gov site there are stipulations even for bikes assist limited to 28mph or less that can be configured for higher speeds.
"Can you easily configure your e-ride to exceed the maximum speed? " (if "yes" then) "This vehicle does not conform to state law for any e-mobility device. It is classified as a motor vehicle. All motor vehicles must meet state and federal safety and equipment requirements, and must be registered, to operate on public roads. Motor vehicles that don't comply with the requirements are for off-road use only."

Requirements for E-bikes capable of assisting over 28mph:

Motorcycle Equipment Requirements​

All equipment must meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. RCW 46.61.720

Posted by a Washington police dept including penalties:




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I will explain this edit: I failed to hit reply but intended this answer to be for EMGX's second attempt at posing cartoon caricatures, so, I am making that clear.

I apologize for the thing about my age. Another poster said that.

Look, you're completely avoiding the fact that your infographics are in error about e-motos. If I am wrong about the actual law that just went in place, just say so and show the real law. All you are doing is proving the police are equally as confused as you are and aren't paying attention. Your cartoons have zero force of law. You're moving the goalposts from whether my bike would be legal in Washington to whether or not a misinformed cop would harass me over it. I won't argue with that, poorly trained and misinformed cops harass people all the time. You seem to carefully avoid the real statutory law on the books in favor of your cartoons. Please stop with the cartoon law and only argue with me based on a statute number or caselaw. You've gone from softball to T-ball. I'm only interested in hardball and will consider more cartoon law to be harassment. Maybe you're a Washington cop who doesn't understand cognitive dissonance.

I just love your e-ride guide link that says it is not legal advice that you think is legal advice. It has zero options that allow you to get to OPDMDs that Washington must allow for federal compliance with ADA and precisely the point of this OP. And it discourages even trying it (the link) multiple times.

The "Police Cartoon Infographic" vs. The Legal Reality​

The flyer you were handed represents a classic ad-hoc enforcement policy. It was probably made before the current legislative developments and is out-of-date. Local police departments routinely design these flyers based on proposed bills or internal interpretations to deter riders, hoping no one actually challenges them on the statutory code. They do not know what to do because the problem hasn't been classified yet, and they cannot afford to be seen doing nothing, and they aren;t that bright with constitutional law.

Here is why that flyer cannot override your rights under Washington law, when operating an OPDMD:

The Police Flyer ClaimThe Actual Washington Law
If it goes over 28 mph or doesn't have pedals, it's an illegal unlicensed motorcycle.False. Under Washington’s active framework, the strict definitions for "electric motorcycles" are currently being studied by a formal legislative work group. Furthermore, if the device is being operated as an OPDMD by someone with a mobility disability, standard vehicle class prohibitions do not apply unless the local entity has published formal, ADA-compliant assessment factors to ban them.
We can seize any non-conforming electric cycle.Extremely high litigation risk for the city. If an officer seizes a custom electric utility cycle being used as an OPDMD without a formal, written, site-specific ADA safety assessment backing up the ban, the municipality is in direct violation of Federal Title II ADA laws and the Washington Law Against Discrimination (WLAD).
 
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No need to argue your point. Ride 30+mph all you want. Just when you do, turn your pedals and try to fool the cops. :rolleyes:
 
At the end of the day, an ebike traveling over 28mph utilizing motor power is not a legal ebike.

This thread Op is about whether or not the ADA preempts the rules about "legal-bikes." The underlying purpose is a discussion about OPDMDs which do not have the same 3 class limitations under state and federal law.. At the end of the day, you're ignoring the discussion about OPDMDs and whether they are legal, you're just saying "3 class is the law" in a vaccuum. Meanwhile people with disabilities (hint) are trying to figure things out and people pretending OPDMDs are not a part of the picture are not helping.

As far as the over 60 thing: you're doing long posts mid-week. Fits the profile of someone who's not pulling the plow.
Hmmm...you just profile people based on one or two bare facts? Even in a thread precisely releveant to the disabled, it didn't occur that I might be disabled? Or what if the "plow" I am pulling is that of a disabled advocate and it is within my job description to advocate for the disabled and other geneeral access issues on their behalf and I am in fact pulling the plow right now? Maybe all my work was done on Monday and I had to appear to be busy the rest of the week. Maybe I'm laid off and waiting to return to work in August. Maybe I'm on unemployment. Maybe I'm an independently wealthy trust fund kid with nothing to do. I can see that you're a dangerous one to give any information to at all, so I won't clarify anything at all about why I am here in the middle of the week. Key takeaway: "Thoughtfulness" is about having lots of thoughts, not latching onto one and stopping.

Without saying you are in fact anything, You 'fit the profile' of a fit rider with a deprecatory attitude toward the disabled; these people have a narrow view of disability that says the disabled do not belong on bikes, but there are many disabilities that have nothing to do with the ability to ride an e-bike/OPDMD but prevent using ordinary bikes, like COPD. Of course, there are disabilities that should not come anywhere close to riding bikes of either sort.

But the actual reason for my throwing that into the post was that a high speed bike wreck for an older person is a life altering, if not ending, event.
Oh, so you weren't just profiling me. Dude, 35 mph as a matter of speed is dangerous even for experienced riders, from childhood to old age; even when it is safer than 20 in vehicle traffic of 35. I'm not saying it isn't. I am proactively aware of any possible upcoming head injuries because one collision tactic I implement is sliding and so I constantly evaluate, "what would I be sliding into" and I often take the exact precise route so that I already know the danger zones. Please. Why does someone wanting to know about the ADA and OPDMDs have to go through all this diversion based on your misbelief that the ADA and OPDMDs are not in the picture at all, just e-bikes or e-motos? Did they need your over 60 safety lecture to understand what the deal is with an OPDMD?
 
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i think the line of thinking in this thread is a little misguided. there is no requirement to make natural/outdoor areas accessible to people with disabilities which are fundamentally in conflict with the nature of the outdoor program. if i can’t climb half dome (which I can’t) i am not entitled to have anyone construct a trail on which I can use a motorized vehicle, nor am I entitled to use a motorized vehicle on the bare rock face.
If you can pardon our prior disagreement, I am totally with you on this one. There are many divergencies in this thread that really aren't about the ADA or OPDMDs and show an over abundance of concern for trails that are not relevant to a high degree. A focus on the day-to-day needs of the disabled would be better.
 
No need to argue your point. Ride 30+mph all you want. Just when you do, turn your pedals and try to fool the cops. :rolleyes:
I will no longer argue YOUR point that refuses to stay within the parameters of the OP. My point is all about the OP instead of trying to defeat the entire concept. I welcome anything you might want to talk about that involves recognition of the existence of OPDMDs and what to do about poorly trained cops that harass people with misinformation.
 
The "legal reality"

There is requirement for "a work group to study and recommend a revised statutory framework for electric motorcycles (e-motos)" but the bill defining a legal ebike did pass and is accurately portrayed in what I already posted. The penalties for motor vehicle/motorcycle noncompliance are already on the books and currently apply to nonconforming ebikes unless and until the work group proposes changes and depending if those changes are enacted as law. At least that's the way I read it. There are sovereign citizen types who think laws don't apply to them but in the end they fail, sometimes with entertaining videos.
 
The "legal reality"

There is requirement for "a work group to study and recommend a revised statutory framework for electric motorcycles (e-motos)" but the bill defining a legal ebike did pass and is accurately portrayed in what I already posted. The penalties for motor vehicle/motorcycle noncompliance are already on the books and currently apply to nonconforming ebikes unless and until the work group proposes changes and depending if those changes are enacted as law. At least that's the way I read it. There are sovereign citizen types who think laws don't apply to them but in the end they fail, sometimes with entertaining videos.
Are ADA advocates wanting to discuss how OPDMDs fit into the Washington framework "sovereign citizens?" I haven't seen any of that talk in the thread, especially since I have engaged. I absolutely think the law applies to me, generally, but I don't think unconstitutional law applies to me since it applies to no-one, including you, like Washington's old drug laws because of the mens rea (intent) defect. Those laws didn't apply to the people who got convicted, and now they had their fines refunded. They didn't get refunds because the Washington Supreme Court suddenly embraced sovereign citizen theories. It's because real legal analysis proves the law did not apply to them.

A sovereign citizen is not merely someone who knows when laws don't apply and when they do; that's a civic minded citizen or a legal professional. As for sovereign citizens, they're mostly out in left field but do have one or two accurate points that don't save their position; just because a sovereign citizen said something doesn't make it untrue even if they say a lot of things that are untrue. Are you saying I'm just one of those sorts because I have posted entirely accurate constitutional law? I'm a paralegal, not a sovereign citizen.

Still, you go straight from "not a 3 class e-bike" to "must be an e-moto" with zero consideration of OPDMDs even in a thread that is specifically about the Americans With Disabilities act. I'd love to discuss how OPDMDs fit in, but the false dichotomy of "if not 3 class, it could only be an e-moto" is totally inaccurate for this-- it simply is not true; there's a third thing to consider. The third thing doesn't go away simply because you refuse to acknowledge it. I admit I don't know everything about it, but "it must be an e-moto" is something I know cannot be true. If you mean the infographics by "what you already posted" they are accurate about the 3 class being on the books (but of course ignore it is unconstitutional) but totally inaccurate about anything else being an electric motorcycle. The workgroup could never change a thing and it is already true that the ADA and OPDMDs cannot be taken out of the picture because it is based in superseding federal law, some of which specifically preempts state meddling. You seem to think that only Washington law is in the picture, but you don't even know about Washington law already on the books, or not, about mobility for the disabled. It so happens that the ADA has been so seamlessly integrated into Washington practice (as it has most places) that they don't bother with supplementary law. Or maybe it's the preemeption thing and they won't play games with the disabled but they will play games with goofy people, like you, waving cartoon law around and thinking an emoji is a good substitute for an argument. Did you ever hear you can't believe everything you see on the internet? I grew up with decades of "you can't believe everything you see on T.V." and we especially said so when the government was speaking. One area that was not preempted is access to Washington Parks Department Lands, where they do still have some original jurisdiction there. Please note that nowhere in this document does the Parks Department tie 3 class to OPDMDs: Washington Parks Department Regulations

The only reason this is an issue is because people like you who oversimplify things are making a big fuss about e-motos with ZERO idea whether or not the bike they just saw is an "e-moto" (which you can't even define under state law) or an OPDMD, because going "too fast" has nothing to do with which one it is. Maybe you're just jealous because you want to go faster too. I'm suspicious some of it is only about keeping the disabled behind closed doors so you won't have to see them drooling in public.
 
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So is your argument that because you are disabled you should be allowed to operate an ebike above the mandated maximum speed of an ebike?
That was not what the OP was advocating.
 
So is your argument that because you are disabled you should be allowed to operate an ebike above the mandated maximum speed of an ebike?
Why, thanks for asking. No, that is not my argument. I'm countering other arguments. Instead I am arguing that just because an OPDMD can go faster than 28 m.p.h. does not mean it is not still an e-bike. Eventually Washnigton may work out an OPDMD exception for e-motos, but they have not defined them yet, so who knows. I am countering an argument that no OPDMD could go faster than an e-bike. The ADA specifically includes e-bikes as an OPDMD and allows vehicles with many thousands of watts to be called an OPDMD. But if you want to know, yes, an e-bike ridden by anyone that is forced into traffic should not be artificially slowed compared to motor vehicle traffic because that causes accidents. I was the victim of a right hook several times on a class 2. I said screw that and bought a more powerful, faster, and unrestricted bike (not massively overpowered or faster, just a little) that brought me up to par with traffic and the right hook never happened again. But I don't think that is true just for the disabled, and I think that e-bikes should just obey the same traffic laws as bicycles and neither belong on faster paced roads unless there are braod shoulders, and never on freeways with highway speeds like 75 or 80 m.p.h.. As to the bottom, line, federal law preempts state 3 class law on the issue of both power and a speed limit. 15 USC 2085 has an engineering formula weight to power ratio that expresses a 20 m.ph. limit for a 170 pound rider on a level surface. This is a benchmark to stop a manufacturer from strapping a 1 h.p. onto a tiny tykes trainer bicycle (and saving a lot of weight) so that a 50 pound kid on that low weight bike can't go 40 miles an hour, either, which might happen if the standard were solely about 1 h.p. motors. It's not a speed limit; it is a test to guide manufacturers in safety testing. 28 miles an hour does not have a lineage in American law--it is an imported European standard and has no rational connection to the issue other than that's what European policymakers think.


That was not what the OP was advocating.

Does the ADA supersede local restrictions on Ebikes?​

is the title. And: "In my case, at 74 and handicapped, I need my relatively powerful ebike with throttle to ride the hilly trails in PA. I always adhere to the posted speed limit. I also carry a copy of my handicap placard and of the pertinent sections of the ADA." is in the initial post. Note, he says he always goes the speed limit. Yes, if a more powerful device that is faster is covered by the ADA, even without 15 USC 2085, then the question of speed under local restrictions is also superseded and within the OP. But speed was no point I made other than responses to bad arguments from others. I have no argument that only the disabled are entitled to go faster than 3 class. Everyone should, because that is safer on most surface streets. I fully support the OP in the notion that e-bikes should be treated the same as traditional bikes and subject to speed limits exactly the same way they are. We could have built bicycles that automatically engaged a brake when going over 20 mph, you know. We could mandate that now in order to treat bikes and e-bikes alike.
 
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