Pinion Motor.Gearbox.Unit (MGU)

[scrambler]

The questions I am curious about are:

• Do you disagree about the benefits listed above?
• Do you see something wrong with integrating the motor and the gear box?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Once you have driven an electric car or a single gear high power eBike, you understand better that gears do not have any benefits for the riding experience.

Not sure I'd feel the same, but I do recognize some of the technical benefits you mentioned.

However, one way or another, an assist mode and crank/wheel speed ratio must be in effect at all times. For now, I want that control. How the bike executes my choices — e.g., with an MGU or CVT+motor unit — is mostly a separate matter.

 

[scrambler]

However, one way or another, an assist mode and crank/wheel speed ratio must be in effect at all times. For now, I want that control. How the bike executes my choices —

No sure what you mean by that.
These integrated motor give you the possibility to operate in full manual mode exactly as you would with a derailleur.
Just that the way gears change in the back is different.
If you want to, you can definitely operate them with full control of when you want to change gears.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

No sure what you mean by that.
These integrated motor give you the possibility to operate in full manual mode exactly as you would with a derailleur.

Good, the materials I saw didn't make that clear.

If you want to, you can definitely operate them with full control of when you want to change gears.

Exactly what I want. As I said earlier, open to a fully manual MGU. Would be interested to try a CVT+motor unit as well.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Not sure I'd feel the same, but I do recognize some of the technical benefits you mentioned.

However, one way or another, an assist mode and crank/wheel speed ratio must be in effect at all times. For now, I want that control. How the bike executes my choices — e.g., with a CVT-based MGU — is mostly a separate matter.

For me, I find the whole thing just fascinating. Been interested in Rohloff and Pinion for a number of years, well before I had any interest in ebikes, as Pinion seem the direct descendents of those incredible 1930s gearbox bikes in Germany, Switzerland and Holland and the engineering is v interesting. But the issues with analogue systems were clear; weight and efficiency compared to derailleurs. Then along came e bikes. Now the weight isn't an issue on a powerful ebike, likewise efficiency. A IGH or gearbox is something like 7% less efficient then derailleur, that's why touring/trekking are the main use of pinion bikes as the weight and efficiency issues don't matter when heavily loaded but reliability does. But once I got my own ebike I wondered immediately what a combined motor/gearbox would be like? Along comes the MGU at Eurobike, along with a few other brands (Decathlon have a Belgian CVT motor) but up until then it was niche. From what i can see the new CVT incarnations have a couple of big advantages; the Pinion MGU has (I think) 3 clusters of cogs so each time the gear moves from a cluster there is a very solid clunk! that can be offputting. Plus the motor noise in the lowest gear cluster is very loud, also offputting. The weight wasn't such an issue, the Nicolai, the first I saw tested was a bit heavy but it was Enduro and has Nicolai's unique aluminium technique, not the lightest, but then Haibike's carbon version is on a par with say the Levo 4.

But the early reports today say that without physical cogs problem 1 is gone (I am always a worrier when it's software not metal cogs, but as all ebikes are laden with software bit late to worry here!), plus the motor (so far) is very quiet, the gearshifts instantaneous and smooth and can be changed when under pressure. Weight is reported as similiar to the derailleur version Avinox/amflow bikes. It has the remarkable Avinox/DJI star power and - hopefully- their low pricing. All of these make it potentially a game changer. Plus the fact that 2 big motor companies produced seperate motor Gearbox prototypes for Eurobike and it's currently being displayed there with 4 prestigious MTB brands who have taken the expense and time to build their own unique bikes around the sytem... this has been in planning for some time, and not a whisper out there about it!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The questions I am curious about are:

• Do you disagree about the benefits listed above?
• Do you see something wrong with integrating the motor and the gear box?

No-one wants to buy it.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

So no answers, just religion
Thats OK, religion like taste and colors are a matter of personal preference....

What are you referring to here?

 

[scrambler]

No-one wants to buy it.

So no answers, just religion
Thats OK, religion like taste and colors are a matter of personal preference....

 

[scrambler]

What are you referring to here?

I was answering Stephan.
I deleted the original post and reposted as a reply so it was more clear

 

[Mr. Coffee]

The questions I am curious about are:

• Do you disagree about the benefits listed above?
• Do you see something wrong with integrating the motor and the gear box?

Nothing is wrong with integrating the motor and gearbox.

My problem is with the claimed benefits and the assumptions behind them.

The first thing is that human beings aren't like electric motors, and finding the optimum place in the efficiency curve is pretty hard to figure out without being pretty invasive. You'd probably want a heart rate monitor, a continuous glucose monitor, and a continuous lactate monitor. You'd also need to do pretty extensive calibration for each rider. What you end up building is more like a very complex medical device than personal transportation.

Gears and reasonable human feedback do that job well enough without all that complexity and expense.

I'd argue that all of that instrumentation would be enormously beneficial if you are training athletes, especially elite athletes. But that is a separate discussion and not what we seem to be arguing about here.

 

[scrambler]

Nothing is wrong with integrating the motor and gearbox.

My problem is with the claimed benefits and the assumptions behind them.

The first thing is that human beings aren't like electric motors, and finding the optimum place in the efficiency curve is pretty hard to figure out without being pretty invasive. You'd probably want a heart rate monitor, a continuous glucose monitor, and a continuous lactate monitor. You'd also need to do pretty extensive calibration for each rider. What you end up building is more like a very complex medical device than personal transportation.

Gears and reasonable human feedback do that job well enough without all that complexity and expense.

I'd argue that all of that instrumentation would be enormously beneficial if you are training athletes, especially elite athletes. But that is a separate discussion and not what we seem to be arguing about here.

No argument that the automation will rely on many factors (especially the SW) and will have to be proven for every usage scenario. Road use scenario being much easier to solve than agressive MTB riding....
But even if you use the bikes in full manual mode, it makes for a much better bike and drivetrain than a separate motor and derailleur.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

No argument that the automation will rely on many factors (especially the SW) and will have to be proven for every usage scenario. Road use scenario being much easier to solve than agressive MTB riding....

I don't know why you think you can assume that. The bigger challenge is individual variance. And things such as ambient temperature and humidity impacts how well the human part of the system works, and quantifying that is measurably different for each person.

The thing is even a 9-year-old girl on a three-speed can build a Good Enough approximation to the optimum between their little ears. You'd be spending a lot of money and engineering effort to replicate what the human brain does reasonably well. Yes, I'd argue that you'd gain tiny performance and efficiency wins along the way but for the average person who rides a bike three miles to the park it seems like overkill. And that bluntly describes 99 percent of ebikers.

 

[scrambler]

Matter of personal appreciation.
I found a very crude enviolo with harmony automatic shifting a decent approximation for city riding
I am sure the system we discussed are far more advanced, so are already good enough for a lot of casual riding where people just want to enjoy their ride.
Now off rod trail riding that is a different subject, and I would have to try one there to form a valid opinion.
But I am not as pessimistic as you about the ability to make it good enough for many situations.

beyond that manual mode remains available

 

[stompandgo]

Given the choice between a stick shift and an automatic transmission, I'll take the stick any day unless I live in a high traffic area where grinding the clutch becomes a chore. It's no different with an e-bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So no answers, just religion

Not. Pinion.MGU has been in the market for 3 years now and I didn't hear of any EBR member to have bought it. I cannot see it offered in the broader market and have never seen a Pinion.MGU e-bike in real life. For instance, Riese and Muller offers Pinion.MGU e-bikes so why don't people buy it?

Meanwhile, it is 2026 and Bosch E-Bike has just invented a hub-drive

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Here's Pinkbike's take on the Goboa eCVT Gearbox - or whatever it should be classed as. They go into that too, as well as a lot of comparison detail about motor weight etc.

Good simple explanation of how the CVT will work in practice. Sounds very easy/simple, set preferred cadence and off you go.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-gobao-joins-the-emtb-arms-race-with-a-1500-w-150-nm-ecvt.html

 

[opimax]

I bought and unfortunately still have a Specialized Vado 5.0. It is the auto version . I wish I never had the auto part . 1) always slips at high speed , been repaired maybe 6 times ,still slips. But the reason I am posting is the way it works when it it works trying to keep the same cadence. When I go slow I want to pedal slow and when I go fast I was to pedal fast . It doesn’t seem to like this . Maybe because I am not or have ever been a biker who goes for exercise but the weekend warrior style that goes on long trips . I do put miles on my bikes, much more than most so I feel I am a real bike rider but these think for me systems do not take me into account well. I really like the ride of the bike and it is the favorite of people who ride my bikes but it never became the favorite of my fleet even the times when working correctly . I have never tried the manual mode which it has which may make me happier but i believe it will still slips/jump at high speed/effort.

i was interested in the motor/tranny combo bikes but currently I would want manual gears and AND proven reliability/repair ability at my local bike shop

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I bought and unfortunately still have a Specialized Vado 5.0. It is the auto version . I wish I never had the auto part . 1) always slips at high speed , been repaired maybe 6 times ,still slips. But the reason I am posting is the way it works when it it works trying to keep the same cadence. When I go slow I want to pedal slow and when I go fast I was to pedal fast . It doesn’t seem to like this . Maybe because I am not or have ever been a biker who goes for exercise but the weekend warrior style that goes on long trips . I do put miles on my bikes, much more than most so I feel I am a real bike rider but these think for me systems do not take me into account well. I really like the ride of the bike and it is the favorite of people who ride my bikes but it never became the favorite of my fleet even the times when working correctly . I have never tried the manual mode which it has which may make me happier but i believe it will still slips/jump at high speed/effort.

i was interested in the motor/tranny combo bikes but currently I would want manual gears and AND proven reliability/repair ability at my local bike shop

Very good points. How will it work with changing gears under load, say on a very steep twisty technical climb? How can set cadence anticipate that, when the only cadence required is not to fall off the damn bike and get over the next tree root! Plenty to be discovered once these new systems are out in the wild and properly tested.

 

[Chazmo]

Here's Pinkbike's take on the Goboa eCVT Gearbox - or whatever it should be classed as. They go into that too, as well as a lot of comparison detail about motor weight etc.

Good simple explanation of how the CVT will work in practice. Sounds very easy/simple, set preferred cadence and off you go.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-gobao-joins-the-emtb-arms-race-with-a-1500-w-150-nm-ecvt.html

The tech wars continue… The Gobao is interesting because you can use it with a “shifter” if you want to. I don’t know if any of the competition offer that. Having the ability to shift (even if it’s not gears)n would potentially make it palatable to a guy like me. CVTs in cars nauseate me, and I can’t imagine a truly cadence-based system feeling right for a luddite like me.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

The tech wars continue… The Gobao is interesting because you can use it with a “shifter” if you want to. I don’t know if any of the competition offer that. Having the ability to shift (even if it’s not gears)n would potentially make it palatable to a guy like me. CVTs in cars nauseate me, and I can’t imagine a truly cadence-based system feeling right for a luddite like me.

Yeah I'm a complete novice with anything other then manual gears, car and bike! Would have to ride one to get a sense, can't quite imagine the bike getting my cadence right, if you see what I mean. On the other hand I'm very relaxed about different systems, with old friction shifters on one bike and snappy indexed on my ebike, so I might love it! Interesting times etc.