Grizl:ON CF 7 - Puppy Delivered to Vet

[stompandgo]

I think you can buy any Smart System display and install it on the bike stem. Bear in mind some Bosch displays are worse than other It makes little sense the e-bike has all the data but you want to install something external. I am not a Bosch expert, however.

Stefan, not every Bosch e-bike rider cares about statistics. They want a simple way to control the DU. They may not care much about speed. They may care a lot more about aesthetics than anything else. That's why you'll see these top tube integrated LED controllers on the high end e-bikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, not every Bosch e-bike rider cares about statistics. They want a simple way to control the DU. They may not care much about speed. They may care a lot more about aesthetics than anything else. That's why you'll see these top tube integrated LED controllers on the high end e-bikes.

I don't want to sound nasty but a similar controller on a Creo 2 is a display
Catalyzt could install a good smartphone mount on his Grizl and overcome his fear related to the Flow App.

 

[Catalyzt]

This is great information, folks, super helpful! I think I will be fine with just using my smartphone with a $22 REI mount tested by actual humans on local trails. I need to be carrying the phone anyway for safety, even if I decide to turn it off when I know where I am and where I'm going. So the weight penalty is almost nothing. If I remove the totally redundant front and rear reflectors, it's probably doesn't impact weight at all.

As I noted, the minimalism in principle, and aesthetically, actually appeals to me. It's super sleek. It bothers me a bit in terms of ergonomics, but it probably wouldn't bother me at all with a dedicated down-level button (instead of a long press) and/or '+' modes that worked a bit differently. This is partly because I still ride the 1974 Raleigh in NYC, which has non-indexed shift levers on the down tube! So I have decades of muscle memory for having to take one hand off the bars to make critical gear shifts in truly harrowing situations.

The REI handlebar phone carrier is also removable, so if I want to go full-on sleek and spartan for short fitness rides, I can stick the phone in my holster and just check on where I've been and what I've done later!

--> Another issue with the power modes is that weirdly, Tour+ does not seem to provide any more power than ECO. I'm still trying to sort this-- maybe the power is only delivered at a certain cadence or leg-torque-power level.

If Tour+, or some auto mode actually worked the way I hoped it would, the need to use the power level control on the top tube would decrease further. I was hoping that Tour+ might cover the range from Eco through Sprint, but it only seems to deliver power at the same level as Eco.

Ideal would be ECO+ (not offered for this bike) which just shuts off the bike when I didn't need power (I'm riding at least 25% with no motor), then Tour+ (if it worked the way I hoped), then Sprint, then Turbo.

The gearing is interesting-- generally, it's great. On the very steepest sections of the steepest hills, I wish I had a slightly bigger rear sprocket; that could eliminate the need to use Turbo almost completely, increasing range slightly.

 

[stompandgo]

The way I understand the "+" modes to work, is that they dynamically increase power based on both rider power and cadence. If you're not putting much power in, or you're not spinning fast enough, the power stays at Tour level. Regular Tour offers significantly higher assist than Eco. It's very noticeable. Give Tour+ a try on some varying terrain when you're putting some power down. If it still feels like Eco, you may need a system update or configuration.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

@Catalyzt Haven't read the whole thread, and don't know anything about your bike or Bosch systems in general. But I also distrust ALL phone apps and let very few on my phone.

HOWEVER, if the Bosch Flow app adds as much useful functionality to your bike as the Specialized app does to my Vado SL 1 5.0 — and you need a phone on your bar anyway — it'd be worth a try.

No idea what Specialized does with the data their bike app collects. But it's proven useful enough to me to just let them have it. And I'm seldom that generous.

 

[BlackHand]

The SX /Sprint has a different torque curve than most other drive units. My understanding is that you want to stay above 80rpm and it doesn't really even hit its sweet spot until 100rpm and higher.

@Stefan Mikes the Kiox 400C is Bosch's top tube controller with a display, but it was just introduced this spring so the Grizl:ON design predates it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

No idea what Specialized does with the data their bike app collects. But it's proven useful enough to me to just let them have it. And I'm seldom that generous.

None of us is as important as @Catalyzt or @Chargeride might think
If you know what I mean
Let them collect the data as they please, Strava included

 

[Catalyzt]

The way I understand the "+" modes to work, is that they dynamically increase power based on both rider power and cadence. If you're not putting much power in, or you're not spinning fast enough, the power stays at Tour level. Regular Tour offers significantly higher assist than Eco. It's very noticeable. Give Tour+ a try on some varying terrain when you're putting some power down. If it still feels like Eco, you may need a system update or configuration.

The SX /Sprint has a different torque curve than most other drive units. My understanding is that you want to stay above 80rpm and it doesn't really even hit its sweet spot until 100rpm and higher.

@Stefan Mikes the Kiox 400C is Bosch's top tube controller with a display, but it was just introduced this spring so the Grizl:ON design predates it.

This is what I thought, but I appreciate the reminder. I sure feel like I'm gearing down, pedaling fast, and putting in a lot of effort, but maybe I haven't hit the sweet spot yet. Yes, regular Tour is more noticeable.

--> Could Tour+ provide less assistance than Eco in some situations? I don't think so; I think the only mode that did that would be Eco+.

And BH, there is some reverse compatibility, some of the Kiox units are compatible.

None of us is as important as @Catalyzt or @Chargeride might think
If you know what I mean
Let them collect the data as they please, Strava included

This has to do more with the line of work that I am in. The people I serve will not trust me if they see my data littered all over the web. And those people are often folks who have expertise in digital forensics or security, people who can get around anything. So it's not so much that I am concerned about anyone knowing what I'm doing, and more that I want potential clients to notice: "Wow, this guy has a tiny digital footprint."

Gonna run a few more tests with Flow in a few minutes! Thanks again!

 

[jowzia]

You'll refresh your inbox to see if REI finished the assembly early, reread the spec sheet, look for tutorials on how to adjust handlebars or change grips, and imagine the first ride as if it were a first date.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

This has to do more with the line of work that I am in. The people I serve will not trust me if they see my data littered all over the web. And those people are often folks who have expertise in digital forensics or security, people who can get around anything. So it's not so much that I am concerned about anyone knowing what I'm doing, and more that I want potential clients to notice: "Wow, this guy has a tiny digital footprint."

Too late now. The FSB, GRU, FBI, CIA, NSA, MI6, and PYT all keep a very close eye on EBR.
;^}

Must be hard to maintain a tiny digital footprint in 2025.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

My theory is the regular TOUR mode has the max motor power capped while TOUR+ has it uncapped. Meaning, pedalling hard and fast in TOUR+ would provide a way more assistance than the same done in TOUR. It is only a speculation though as I am not a Bosch man.

My director has a Smart System e-bike and he told me there were plethora of motor tuning options in the Flow App.

@Stefan Mikes the Kiox 400C is Bosch's top tube controller with a display, but it was just introduced this spring so the Grizl:ON design predates it.

Do you think Catalyzt could upgrade his Grizl with this display?

 

[Catalyzt]

Too late now. The FSB, GRU, FBI, CIA, NSA, MI6, and PYT all keep a very close eye on EBR.
;^}

Must be hard to maintain a tiny digital footprint in 2025.

All true. (Actually, just the second thing!) I just got finished telling the band that I'm not accepting my assigned PR task, which is setting up and administrating a MailChimp account. No more apps, accounts, or subscriptions, please!

You'll refresh your inbox to see if REI finished the assembly early, reread the spec sheet, look for tutorials on how to adjust handlebars or change grips, and imagine the first ride as if it were a first date.

Oh, Lord... if I relied on my inbox, the bike would have been refused for delivery, shipped back to Carlsbad or wherever by Fedex! The only reason the shipment actually arrived at REI and that they were ready to receive it was because I called Fedex and REI and talked to them on the phone.

The spec sheet was actually useful, but the manual is absolutely crazy bad. It's the worst translation from German I have ever seen, and I used to do quality control for German subtitles (which you can do even if you don't speak the language!)

Most of my first dates did not go as well as this one.

My theory is the regular TOUR mode has the max motor power capped while TOUR+ has it uncapped. Meaning, pedalling hard and fast in TOUR+ would provide a way more assistance than the same done in TOUR. It is only a speculation though as I am not a Bosch man.

That is what I thought, too, and would be a reasonable assumption. But that's not what's going on, either per the specs or my own experience.

@stompandgo and @BlackHand were right about one thing for sure: Shifting directly from Eco to Tour+, you have to be at WAY higher cadence and pedal pressure in Tour+ to get a bump in power-- but if I'm really pouring it on, I do get a little more power in Tour+ than ECO. I wish it kicked in a little sooner, but hey, that's useful. So far, so good.

What seems nutty is that the specs say you can get 340% in both Turbo and Tour+, which is really hard to believe. From my experience, if that were true, you would have to be pedaling like a maniac to get that much power out of Tour+. If you could pedal that hard, why would you even need an eBike?! And I speak as someone who shuts the motor off a lot.

What I still haven't figured out is if Tour+ can be even more efficient than Eco in some situations. Can Tour+ actually provide less than 60% assistance, or even shut off sometimes, like Eco+ (which I do not have)? That is super hard to tell by just how the bike feels, but it seems like maybe it can. Testing this would be difficult, but while my Flow+ subscription is still active, I should try to figure that out.

My director has a Smart System e-bike and he told me there were plethora of motor tuning options in the Flow App.

He may indeed, but here in the states, Class III bikes do not have the option of tuning. It was hard to find, but here is the fine print:

<< *For speed eBikes, customization of riding modes is deactivated for legal reasons. >>

Then I had to figure out what a 'speed eBike' was. It's synonymous with Class III.

This is kind of annoying; the 'legal reasons' excuse does not seem to make sense. Legal restrictions might stop them from providing riders with control of the upper limit of assist, sure. But why not allow us to adjust the lower limit of assist? What harm would there be in that? Maybe I'm missing something.

DISCLAIMER: None of this is very important to me; the bike has so much capability that my previous bikes do/did not! I'm crazy happy with it. I'm just curious about the design decisions.

 

[BlackHand]

Do you think Catalyzt could upgrade his Grizl with this display?

No, the display is bigger and requires a larger cutout in the frame. A lot of bikes released last fall had the system controller mounted in a plate in the top tube so that upgrade is possible, but earlier ebikes like the Grizl:ON don't have a provision for this.

The Kiox 300 or Kiox 500 would be the choices if Catalyzt wants to see cadence/power and have access to nav in addition to basic info like speed and battery %. For me the drop bar mini remote would be a necessary, and cheap, upgrade regardless of display choice.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

This is kind of annoying; the 'legal reasons' excuse does not seem to make sense. Legal restrictions might stop them from providing riders with control of the upper limit of assist, sure. But why not allow us to adjust the lower limit of assist? What harm would there be in that? Maybe I'm missing something

You should have bought a Specialized

Bosch E-bike thinks the whole world is Germany but it isn't. If they make an S-Pedelec (Class 3 e-bike) then they think the United States is Germany.
Specialized makes their e-bikes programmable. If a batch of Creo 2 is to be sent to EU, the UK or Australia, they are programmed for 25 km/h. If these are sent to Canada, it is 32 km/h. If it is the United States, it is 28 mph. The same e-bike. Is it a Creo 2 or a Vado or a Vado SL.

The only exception is the 45 km/h Specialized Turbo Vado S IGH, which is only sold in the EU and is as strict as the law requires in Europe.

 

[Catalyzt]

No, the display is bigger and requires a larger cutout in the frame. A lot of bikes released last fall had the system controller mounted in a plate in the top tube so that upgrade is possible, but earlier ebikes like the Grizl:ON don't have a provision for this.

The Kiox 300 or Kiox 500 would be the choices if Catalyzt wants to see cadence/power and have access to nav in addition to basic info like speed and battery %. For me the drop bar mini remote would be a necessary, and cheap, upgrade regardless of display choice.

This bike does have the controller in the top tube. I think I read that at least some of the Kiox were compatible.

But it seems there may be no need for this, as I have cadence, power, access to nav, possibly speed, with the free app, though battery % you have to pay for. I don't need it, didn't have anything but bars and estimates of range, so I can live without batt %.

You should have bought a Specialized

Bosch E-bike thinks the whole world is Germany but it isn't. If they make an S-Pedelec (Class 3 e-bike) then they think the United States is Germany.
Specialized makes their e-bikes programmable. If a batch of Creo 2 is to be sent to EU, the UK or Australia, they are programmed for 25 km/h. If these are sent to Canada, it is 32 km/h. If it is the United States, it is 28 mph. The same e-bike. Is it a Creo 2 or a Vado or a Vado SL.

The only exception is the 45 km/h Specialized Turbo Vado S IGH, which is only sold in the EU and is as strict as the law requires in Europe.

I love it when folks in different European countries poke fun of each other! And yet-- something you say sounds right. The German style sometimes seems a bit rigid-- thus the thinking that the US is Germany-- that no other specs might have to change except speed, all other rules remain the same-- does sound kind of German! (I mean that an in an affectionate way.)

Of course, no one really knows what they were thinking. But more will be revealed...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But it seems there may be no need for this, as I have cadence, power, access to nav, possibly speed, with the free app, though battery % you have to pay for. I don't need it, didn't have anything but bars and estimates of range, so I can live without batt %.

My first e-bike only had the speed, distance ridden, and four bars for the battery level.

I cannot ride an e-bike that does not have the Battery %, Speed, Distance Ridden and Time of Day as the minimum. I simply can't. Bear in mind my rides are pretty long and I have to know a lot to return home still on the battery. Actually, my best "display", which is a Wahoo connected to my e-bikes has as many as 11 vital data fields. YMMV.

I love it when folks in different European countries poke fun of each other! And yet-- something you say sounds right. The German style sometimes seems a bit rigid

I do know many German people as I often work with them, and also been to Germany for many times. Germany is a country of overwhelming bureaucracy (all done on paper! Now in 2025!), poor Internet, cash instead of bank cards or phone payment, and conservative people. The number of safety items you must have on your pedal bike in Germany is as big as I won't bore you with it. Did you know the flashing bike lighting was forbidden in Germany?

Switzerland is the country that is even more serious than Germany. Stiff Germans say "The Swiss have no sense of humour!" Yet it is Switzerland that has embraced Speed Pedelecs first and with no hassle.
Sweden is the country even more strict on safety than Germany is. Believe it or not but any public meeting in Sweden begins with a safety/security briefing like in a commercial passenger airplane...

 

[Rás Cnoic]

The way I understand the "+" modes to work, is that they dynamically increase power based on both rider power and cadence. If you're not putting much power in, or you're not spinning fast enough, the power stays at Tour level. Regular Tour offers significantly higher assist than Eco. It's very noticeable. Give Tour+ a try on some varying terrain when you're putting some power down. If it still feels like Eco, you may need a system update or configuration.

This is true. I remember the first reviews of the SX motor on emtbs where the reviewers found that pedalling furiously up steep techs climbs released far more power, almost comparable to the powerful CX motors. In other word it's designed to reward fast cadence. A quirk of the motor.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

This is true. I remember the first reviews of the SX motor on emtbs where the reviewers found that pedalling furiously up steep techs climbs released far more power, almost comparable to the powerful CX motors. In other word it's designed to reward fast cadence. A quirk of the motor.

Also small SL motors can do an awful lot as long as the gearing is low enough so you aren't having to grind out gears. Those emtb tests with the SX motor had very low mtb gears probably 32 x 50 or something close allowing them to spin even on the crazy steep tech trails. I reduced the gearing on my Vado SL (35nm) from 44x11 42 to 36x11 46 and despite the small motor it can get up 15 - 25% gradients now because I'm able to mostly keep spinning. Of course downside is spinning out on the flats or straight downhills but I don't have much of either here!

 

[stompandgo]

All true. (Actually, just the second thing!) I just got finished telling the band that I'm not accepting my assigned PR task, which is setting up and administrating a MailChimp account. No more apps, accounts, or subscriptions, please!

Better stay off of Strava, then. Strava sells your data.

>What seems nutty is that the specs say you can get 340% in both Turbo and Tour+, which is really hard to believe.

That's the way I understand how all of the BES3 "+" modes work. You get a base level of assist that dynamically scales to full assist as you increase cadence and power input. I could be wrong, though. There's one dynamic mode available for Gen4 BES2 motors, eMTB, which works like this, but it is not available on Speed motors "due to legal restrictions".

What I still haven't figured out is if Tour+ can be even more efficient than Eco in some situations. Can Tour+ actually provide less than 60% assistance, or even shut off sometimes, like Eco+ (which I do not have)?

Not that I'm aware of.

Then I had to figure out what a 'speed eBike' was. It's synonymous with Class III.

They are also called "speed pedelecs" over there.

This is kind of annoying; the 'legal reasons' excuse does not seem to make sense. Legal restrictions might stop them from providing riders with control of the upper limit of assist, sure. But why not allow us to adjust the lower limit of assist? What harm would there be in that? Maybe I'm missing something.

DISCLAIMER: None of this is very important to me; the bike has so much capability that my previous bikes do/did not! I'm crazy happy with it. I'm just curious about the design decisions.

 

[Catalyzt]

Okay, I got a bit deeper into Flow and I see it has a lot of ride data that I missed.

It does seem like a bare-bones speedometer app combined with Flow will give me all the information I need. My crappo Chinese speedometer is acting up anyway, but who needs it? I'll just stick the phone on the bars, probably keep the screen on the speedometer except when I'm someplace where I have trouble navigating, when I will switch over to Flow. Then I'll get ride stats at the end of the ride, or if I stop for a break, etc.

Flow is annoying in one respect: It says, "You may be riding in places where your bike is not legal." This is in my own neighborhood! Maybe because there is one dead-end street that is technically a private street? My neighbors absolutely don't care. We wave and shout hello.

I cannot ride an e-bike that does not have the Battery %, Speed, Distance Ridden and Time of Day as the minimum. I simply can't. Bear in mind my rides are pretty long and I have to know a lot to return home still on the battery. Actually, my best "display", which is a Wahoo connected to my e-bikes has as many as 11 vital data fields. YMMV.

I understand why that would be the case where and how you ride, totally, particularly battery %. That is what I will miss the most when my free subscription expires. Everything else I can get from the apps or my wrist-chronograph. However...

My first e-bike only had the speed, distance ridden, and four bars for the battery level.

This is the reality we all started with, and I can live with it. After a steep climb, I may have only 20% battery, but whether I know whether it's 22% or 18% may not matter that much in terms of whether or not I can make it home! Wind, my own exhaustion, etc. will be such significant factors that the granular detail does not matter to me so much.

That's the way I understand how all of the BES3 "+" modes work. You get a base level of assist that dynamically scales to full assist as you increase cadence and power input. I could be wrong, though. There's one dynamic mode available for Gen4 BES2 motors, eMTB, which works like this, but it is not available on Speed motors "due to legal restrictions".

Here is where Flow+ gets interesting, because it tells me that my average cadence is in the mid 60s, though I max out only in the high 60s?! So maybe I'm really not pedaling fast enough to get max torque in Tour+. I wish it gave me in-the-moment cadence numbers, but this is helpful. I found this chart, too, though I'm too stupid to figure out what it means. Does it mean that I don't get more torque until I'm north of 100 cadence?