Another class needed?

[jabberwocky]

This would be your mistake....

So ebikes are allowed on, say, the trails at Apalachicola National Forest? How does that work, since the state of Florida doesn't have any say in the management of a National Forest?

I think most understand what the class definitions are now. Parroting them again here not necessary. The problems come in when you try to come up with the logic behind them to justify their existence. We already know removing the throttle from a class 2 effectively makes it a class 1. So again, starting from that point, please explain the piece explaining how having one might make your class 2 bike illegal.

The ONLY reason I can think of is because of the knee jerk reaction mode these rule makers were in. If you can think of another, I'd sure like to hear about it.

I'm having difficulty parsing your question. Are you asking why anyone would treat class 1 and 2 differently?

 

[AHicks]

I have family in Jacksonville and I asked about the ebike laws and regulations. I was given this link.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

www.leg.state.fl.us

Their ebike classes are the same 3 as all other states, see #23

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

www.leg.state.fl.us

As other states all 3 classes of ebikes have the same rights and responsibilities as bicycle riders, where they can be used is up to local governments and authorities.

"However, this section may not be construed to prevent a local government, through the exercise of its powers under s. 316.008, from adopting an ordinance governing the operation of electric bicycles on streets, highways, sidewalks, and sidewalk areas under the local government’s jurisdiction; to prevent a municipality, county, or agency of the state having jurisdiction over a bicycle path, multiuse path, or trail network from restricting or prohibiting the operation of an electric bicycle on a bicycle path, multiuse path, or trail network; or to prevent a municipality, county, or agency of the state having jurisdiction over a beach as defined in s. 161.54(3) or a dune as defined in s. 161.54(4) from restricting or prohibiting the operation of an electric bicycle on such beach or dune."

Link to the above text on the state's website. The above is all dated this year, 2022

Unfortunately like so many places around the country, 'experts' misrepresent the state's laws on official looking websites like this one.

E-Bikes and What Florida Law Says about Them

Chris Burns gives an overview on e-bikes, or electronic-assist bicycles, and how they relate to bicycle laws in the State of Florida.

floridacyclinglaw.com

There are local jurisdictions that ban ebikes in Florida in places where bicycles are allowed, this is one such place. (Dated 1/10/2022)

Pinellas beach communities ban e-bikes, e-scooters on the sand

Some Pinellas County beach communities are cracking down on electric bikes and scooters. St. Pete Beach is the latest city to ban motorized bikes, scooters and skateboards on the beach and on sidewalks along Gulf Boulevard.

www.abcactionnews.com

As to whether some paths and trails are limited by class, I haven't looked into it.

Florida does recognize the existing 3 class laws, but last I checked, they are not using them to define where an e-bike can be used. I'm pretty sure local laws on non-state owned/maintained trails (county owned/maintained trails) will preempt the "ride anywhere" laws, that only stands to reason. That said, I haven't seen one yet....

Given talk and opinions are pretty cheap, please document your comment ( 'experts' misrepresent the state's laws on official looking websites like this one") regarding attorney Chris Burns in his article called "E-Bikes and Florida Law" and published in his blog called "Florida Bicycle Laws" that you provided above ( https://floridacyclinglaw.com/blog/e-bikes-and-florida-law)
I think it a safe bet he'd find your documentation pretty interesting, no?

Note: Florida "National Forests" are so overrun with ORV's and other off-road types, I doubt you would want to ride in one. For starters, for the most part, everything is sand. There's no pavement and very little hard pack. They are the ONLY place the ORV's are allowed to ride legally in the state. I guess I was thinking more along the idea of paved MUP's for instance.

 

[AHicks]

I'm having difficulty parsing your question. Are you asking why anyone would treat class 1 and 2 differently?

Sorta, without referencing the current class rules. I'm looking for the logic to justify that rule. Something that will make sense.....

Why am I so hard line here? Because these stupid class laws are making class 2 bikes (those with throttles) illegal to ride in so many areas. 99% of the inexpensive hub driven bikes being sold today are purchased by first time owners. Folks that would like to get out and ride a bike for all the same reasons you and I do. Some can easily justify having a throttle, yet there is very little mention of how the "system" allows for those. Most authorities just say no....

 

[jabberwocky]

Florida does recognize the existing 3 class laws, but last I checked, they are not using them to define where an e-bike can be used. I'm pretty sure local laws on non-state owned/maintained trails will preempt the "ride anywhere" laws, that only stands to reason. That said, I haven't seen one yet....

Given talk and opinions are pretty cheap, please document your comment regarding attorney Chris Burns in his article called "E-Bikes and Florida Law" and published in his blog called "Florida Bicycle Laws" that you provided above ( https://floridacyclinglaw.com/blog/e-bikes-and-florida-law)
I think it a safe bet he'd find your documentation pretty interesting, no?

This is pretty normal. VA is similar; they define the 3 classes of ebikes and say that for the purpose of the code, ebikes are considered bicycles. Like Florida, they have a "local jurisdictions can still ban use if they want" section though, and that doesn't apply to anything not under state control which includes most parks, probably many MUPs, National Parks, Forests, BLM land, etc.

The link you included says the same thing. From that article by Chris Burns:

By state law, electric bikes may be operated in the exact same locations as regular bicycles. Electric bikes are allowed on “any road, path or way that is open to bicycle travel.” This means they can be ridden on roads (except limited access highways), bike lanes, bike paths, multi-use paths, and sidewalks. However, local communities may pass their own ordinances.

Fort Myers Beach has banned e-bikes as of May 4, 2018.

Access to park land and their trails is complicated. For example, most national parks do not allow cycling, including e-biking, except on paved road and in designated areas. There are certain exceptions in parks such as Acadia National Park in Maine, where mountain bikes can be used on certain off-road trails. Park regulations do not allow e-bikes on those same "carriage roads". Some state parks allow e-bikes, such as Alafia River State Park, Jonathon Dickson State Park, and Fort Clinch State Park. The International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA) policy supports pedal-assist e-bikes being allowed access on certain trails.

Bolding mine. JR linked the actual code earlier in the thread. Maybe you only ride roads and have that mindset; in that case, yeah you're likely golden in the entire state (same would be true here in VA).

 

[jabberwocky]

Sorta, without referencing the current class rules. I'm looking for the logic to justify that rule. Something that will make sense.....

Why am I so hard line here? Because these stupid class laws are making class 2 bikes (those with throttles) illegal to ride in so many areas. 99% of the inexpensive hub driven bikes being sold today are purchased by first time owners. Folks that would like to get out and ride a bike for all the same reasons you and I do. Some can easily justify having a throttle, yet there is very little mention of how the "system" allows for those. Most authorities just say no....

I can't speak for anyone actually making these decisions, and do agree that in potential conflict terms there is no functional difference between a bike with a throttle and without as long as the speed cutoff is the same. I think theres a large perception difference though; people (especially other usergroups) react with more hostility to someone riding what appears to be a motorcycle than a pedal assist bike even if they actually have the same motor and are going the same speed. Unfortunately managers are going to take into account that perception difference. If they think allowing pedal assist bikes will be largely frictionless but allowing bikes with throttles will be met with hostility and complaints, they will only allow the pedal assist ones.

In the MTB world, theres not only that, but decades of advocacy work to try and stop land managers from grouping mountainbikers with dirt bikes and ATVs (which was how they were managed for a very long time). Theres basically zero chance anyone in that world is going to go to bat for bikes with throttles.

EDIT: That said, around me class 2s are totally fine to ride almost everywhere other ebikes are allowed. Pretty much the only place they aren't where other ebikes are is singletrack.

 

[J.R.]

Given talk and opinions are pretty cheap, please document your comment regarding attorney Chris Burns in his article called "E-Bikes and Florida Law" and published in his blog called "Florida Bicycle Laws" that you provided above

In every thread about this issue Florida has been mentioned as a state where ebikes are allowed everywhere bicycles are allowed. I wouldn't have said that was cheap talk, but it is incorrect. Similar to the blog at the beginning of the article. He eventually noted some of the facts and that's better than ebike sellers that intentionally mislead consumers.

 

[PDoz]

It sounds like the proposed support limit is aimed at keeping rule makers happy rather than actually changing any real behavior? It's worth accepting this irrational rule if that's what it takes to be considered a bike, but it really would be an unnecessary rule if the pen pushers could get off their arses and actually ride these bikes!

As mentioned earlier, Australia already has the 25 k limit and we enjoy universal emtb trail access , we are legally bike riders. I've really enjoyed the past 5 years of emtb riding , and ridden some amazing trails in different states without even having to think about the legality. Emtb's are everywhere over here , including being the preferred hire bike at most commercial destinations. In 2018 I enjoyed the novelty of a group ride in the alps with 100 other emtb riders, the sport was relatively new and most of those riders were on hired emtb's (that many bought at the end of the day) . It was a novelty event and our bikes got a lot of attention. Nowadays, it's a non assisted bike that gets a second look!!! ( mostly to check it's not a stealthy light emtb)

BUT , realistically, the 25 k limit makes zero difference to the perceived risks mentioned by the OP - riders climbing uphill and surprising riders coming down . There is no way an emtb is going to be hitting the speed limit on a technical uphill trail! We might gain higher than expected speeds on machine cut flowy trails , but in the past 5 years I an only remember 1 episode where we came across other riders un expectable and risked a head on - they were climbing on regular bikes , my son was out front descending on a regular bike, and WE were going the wrong way because we had taken a wrong turn. It probably helps that most of our fast / technical trails have nominated directions (and signage) , plus apps like trailforks include " usual direction travelled" on trails that are not one way.

I suspect there is another factor that reduces the head on collision risk in Australia - our gum trees drop limbs on a regular basis so we ride expecting to need to stop within the distance we can see. It doesn't matter if we are riding a regular bike, emtb, or dirt bike - we come around corners or approach jumps expecting there could be a massive log across the trail . So having a bike rider slowly climbing up a down hill trail will annoy us but is unlikely to kill anyone. Lets face it, if you crash and are lying on the trail, you're going to be unhappy to have others ride over you.

 

[keithj69]

As a Central Florida rider that rides the awesome multi-purpose trails, I have come across at least one area that limits the trail speed to 15 mph. Not specific to ebikes. That area is not a great place to speed on any bike due to limited visibility. On a good fast bike, it is fun. I mean super car fun.
And it really does determine the area you live. They opened up a new trail section and I wanted to join the fun, but the ceremony said no ebikes due to county restrictions. I ride it all the time and no issues. Even the golf carts use it to get around. ( not the villages). There happens to be a brewery close to the trail that is literally a 2 ft skip off the trail and a quick ride to it. BOGO beers on sunday for the people showing up on bikes.

 

[AHicks]

In every thread about this issue Florida has been mentioned as a state where ebikes are allowed everywhere bicycles are allowed. I wouldn't have said that was cheap talk, but it is incorrect. Similar to the blog at the beginning of the article. He eventually noted some of the facts and that's better than ebike sellers that intentionally mislead consumers.

Which facts are those?

 

[AHicks]

I can't speak for anyone actually making these decisions, and do agree that in potential conflict terms there is no functional difference between a bike with a throttle and without as long as the speed cutoff is the same.

Pretty much the point I was trying to make. There's no logical reason for them to be in separate classes (with and without throttle).

I think theres a large perception difference though; people (especially other usergroups) react with more hostility to someone riding what appears to be a motorcycle than a pedal assist bike even if they actually have the same motor and are going the same speed. Unfortunately managers are going to take into account that perception difference. If they think allowing pedal assist bikes will be largely frictionless but allowing bikes with throttles will be met with hostility and complaints, they will only allow the pedal assist ones.

We agree here, but that's not the group I have in mind. The group I have in mind is the (first time buyers) group purchasing hub driven bikes that almost always come with a throttle (the VAST majority of e-bikes currently sold). Telling them their "class 2" bike are illegal on many trails only because they are equipped with a throttle is a complete crock of crap. It defies logic....

In the MTB world, theres not only that, but decades of advocacy work to try and stop land managers from grouping mountainbikers with dirt bikes and ATVs (which was how they were managed for a very long time). Theres basically zero chance anyone in that world is going to go to bat for bikes with throttles.

EDIT: That said, around me class 2s are totally fine to ride almost everywhere other ebikes are allowed. Pretty much the only place they aren't where other ebikes are is singletrack.

Trust me, I get the fact that most e-bikes, no matter their class, are rarely challenged. The reason for that I believe, is that the class laws are so incredibly stupid as they stand, and anyone with a conscience/mind of their own is going to do their best to ignore them - until you give them reason to do otherwise.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Trust me, I get the fact that most e-bikes, no matter their class, are rarely challenged. The reason for that I believe, is that the class laws are so incredibly stupid as they stand, and anyone with a conscience/mind of their own is going to do their best to ignore them - until you give them reason to do otherwise.

Classes and speed limits, in my limited experience are never enforced unless or until someone is injured or there is some kind of damage, and then they are just a hook to hang a ticket or a lawsuit on. If someone causes an accident of some sort, or is just being obnoxious, charge them with causing an accident or riding recklessly!

Why are bikes with or without throttles on trails any different than Smart Cars, Corvettes, Dodge Ram diesel pickups, buses, cement trucks, and 18 wheelers on the road? On the road the rules are about behavior, not how big or how much power you have.

In case you can't tell, I think the e-bike class system is pretty much ridiculous. I was come up by a bunch of do-gooders who saw the need to fix something that wasn't broken. I'm not even so sure their intentions were good, but regardless, the whole class thing is a mistake. In my opinion.

TT

 

[tomjasz]

My vote- ban/trash can all of the classes and come up with something that makes much more sense.

Spot on.

 

[tomjasz]

check out Florida

Another planet, no thanks.

 

[tomjasz]

Trust me, I get the fact that most e-bikes, no matter their class, are rarely challenged. The reason for that I believe, is that the class laws are so incredibly stupid as they stand, and anyone with a conscience/mind of their own is going to do their best to ignore them - until you give them reason to do otherwise.

Gosh it’s sometimes good to be old. I’ll likely be taking my dirt nap before some asshats impose stupid rules. Or at least before they’re forced on riders. FFS naysayers need to STFU and go for a ride. No matter th3 hobby there’s always gonna be a asshole merit badge earner.

Eventually some peckerwood will discover there’s a way to tax..

 

[jabberwocky]

Pretty much the point I was trying to make. There's no logical reason for them to be in separate classes (with and without throttle).

My point is that there is a reason, even if we don't like it or don't think it makes sense. If there was a single class of ebikes that allowed throttles and up to 28mph assist, access to a wide variety of off road stuff would be difficult or impossible to get. The usefulness is that land managers who see throttles or higher speed assist as a non-starter can just allow class 1s, and people who want those things can still buy them for use in places where they aren't seen as an issue. I get its frustrating if you want to ride your throttle equipped bike on that trail, but some legal access is always better than no legal access.

We agree here, but that's not the group I have in mind. The group I have in mind is the (first time buyers) group purchasing hub driven bikes that almost always come with a throttle (the VAST majority of e-bikes currently sold). Telling them their "class 2" bike are illegal on many trails only because they are equipped with a throttle is a complete crock of crap. It defies logic....

I can't speak countrywide and I know the situation on the ground varies wildly, but around me class 2s are allowed almost everywhere ebikes are allowed. The only places they aren't (that I'm aware of, at least) are the few singletrack trail systems that are open to ebikes and are class 1 only. I personally have trouble believing people want to buy cheap hub motor bikes to ride mountainbike trails. They are legal on all roads, bikes lanes and MUPs, which makes them perfectly fine choices for pretty much everything except mountainbiking.

 

[AHicks]

My point is that there is a reason, even if we don't like it or don't think it makes sense. If there was a single class of ebikes that allowed throttles and up to 28mph assist, access to a wide variety of off road stuff would be difficult or impossible to get. The usefulness is that land managers who see throttles or higher speed assist as a non-starter can just allow class 1s, and people who want those things can still buy them for use in places where they aren't seen as an issue. I get its frustrating if you want to ride your throttle equipped bike on that trail, but some legal access is always better than no legal access.



I can't speak countrywide and I know the situation on the ground varies wildly, but around me class 2s are allowed almost everywhere ebikes are allowed. The only places they aren't (that I'm aware of, at least) are the few singletrack trail systems that are open to ebikes and are class 1 only. I personally have trouble believing people want to buy cheap hub motor bikes to ride mountainbike trails. They are legal on all roads, bikes lanes and MUPs, which makes them perfectly fine choices for pretty much everything except mountainbiking.

It would appear to me like our biggest difference of opinions might have a lot to do with where we do most of our riding. Even then, from a realistic standpoint, the addition of a throttle doesn't seem like it would affect the trail damage left behind by either a class 1 or class 2. I get what the "rules" are, and I get why you must abide by them (our way or the highway). That does not justify though, the thought that a class 2 might be more damaging. That's a joke. Anyone even half familiar with the 2 bikes should be able to see that....

I have no problem riding class 2 or 3 bikes anywhere, with the full knowledge that there's a remote chance there may be an issue. In that case, go ahead and write the ticket. I'm perfectly OK dealing with that.

However, the thought that there are so many that don't have that confidence, or the paranoid types that just can't seem to bring themselves to ride where they haven't been authorized, that bugs me. It's all because of this stupid class 1 vs. class 2 throttle thing. That's what REALLY bugs me....

The folks now sitting on the coach watching TV because of this? That's a damn shame....

 

[antboy]

Okay so do you think we should add another ebike class?
Call it a Class 0, equivalent of European/Japanese class of 250W, 15mph?

Are Class 1 E-Bikes too Fast for Certain Trails? Some Think a Slower Class is Needed

With more than one type of electric mountain bike on the market today, some bikes might be more appropriate for certain trails than others.

www.singletracks.com

For the kind of bikes/trails being discussed in the SingleTracks article, it's a ridiculous direction to go.

They're talking about Class 1 bikes, and Jeff Kendall-Weed's recent video sums up my opinion, and it's appropriately titled...
"Why are we so afraid of eMTB?"

Long and short of that video is the following:
Climbing steep technical terrain, there's about a 3mph gain in speed (from 5mph up to 8mph)
For less steep, smooth climbs, there's a bigger speed gain from about 7mph to 15mph.
Downhill is irrelevant, because gravity.
On flat trails, a pedal bike can already exceed the 20mph limitation of a Class 1 motor. It's hard, but people do it every day.

Class 0 isn't really going to affect either of the uphill speed increases and will make them go SLOWER than even a marginally fit person on smooth flats.

As the article points out...

Perhaps most tellingly, a 2017 county survey found 65% of trail users were unable to detect the presence of a Class 1 e-bike vs. a regular mountain bike, speed differential or not.

And this is in 2017, when batteries were obvious, compared today's in-frame batteries, on bikes that look more like traditional pedal bikes.

Earlier in the article:

His group has a master plan for developing 25 miles of singletrack on the property with trails designated for riders of all abilities.

With this in mind, and thinking about a Class 0, will all 25 miles of single track have an enforced speed limit of 15mph, including for pedal bikes?

When you look at it this way, it's ridiculous on its face.

As @jabberwocky said earlier, people going uphill on traditionally down routes (because the tech makes it conquerable), and people using Surron-esque electric dirt bikes are issues that wouldn't be solved by telling someone with an Orbea Rise that their bike is too dangerous to ride this single track.

 

[Flannel Guy]

My vote- ban/trash can all of the classes and come up with something that makes much more sense.

Let's try to get out of this box we seem to be stuck in. It's should be clear to most, in the end, it's just too cumbersome to get the job done in a manner that makes any sense at all.....

Speed bumps on the MUP trails?

Right. Like holding the rider responsible for the way they ride instead of the equipment based on specs of an of average weight rider x arbitrary nominal wattage ratings used for marketing position.

All of it needs enforcement, so enforce a speed limit in areas that speed is an issue. Make new trails and changes to existing to take the speed element out of the picture. If a trail is truly directional, them make sure signage reflects this. Otherwise share the trail and realize there are some are coming up as fast as some go down. Education needs to happen on both sides.

Mountain biking and snowboarding in the 90's all I heard from skiers and hikers were -you're going to ruin our trails. Never happened. Snow boarding gave a needed boost for the ski industry. Mountain biking expanded trail networks. Ebikes will do the same 10x as much.

 

[jabberwocky]

The glaring problem with the "no restrictions, just enforce behavior!" thing is its a complete non-starter for pretty much any non-road bike infrastructure. You're talking about trails and such that have existed for decades without allowing powered vehicles at all, and want to push unrestricted powered vehicle access and your solution to the incredibly obvious conflict issues is "the managing agencies also need to come up with and implement an enforcement regime to curb unwanted behavior".

Not gonna happen, ever. Its literally fantasy on the level of "government provides everyone with magical pegasus unicorns to ride to work".

 

[AHicks]

The glaring problem with the "no restrictions, just enforce behavior!" thing is its a complete non-starter for pretty much any non-road bike infrastructure. You're talking about trails and such that have existed for decades without allowing powered vehicles at all, and want to push unrestricted powered vehicle access and your solution to the incredibly obvious conflict issues is "the managing agencies also need to come up with and implement an enforcement regime to curb unwanted behavior".

Not gonna happen, ever. Its literally fantasy on the level of "government provides everyone with magical pegasus unicorns to ride to work".

I have to agree. Enforcement is expensive. The need for it one more reason e-bikes might leave a bad taste in the wrong person's mouth.

The idea of restructuring the class laws to totally de-emphasize throttles seems much easier and makes way more sense from where I'm sitting. Eliminate class 2 entirely.

If that doesn't work out well for EMTB trails, so be it. They can run whatever rules works for them. Let the other 98% of e-bike riders use some classes that make more sense.