I just sent this message to Biktrix regarding the Unprogrammable Canbus Ultra motor

[rtp]

If the motor is no longer going to be programable by the end user i would like to at least see the dealers like biktrix be able to make their own tunes like Luna for the M600

Well - bear in mind the 'Luna tune' for the X1 was generally disliked by most.
The Ludicrous controller V2 that comes with the X2s as an option is an entirely different thing and a bespoke controller and programming.

But yeah - would be good to know what's being changed if it's not user-configurable even with BESST.

 

[Ridetoglide]

Well - bear in mind the 'Luna tune' for the X1 was generally disliked by most.
The Ludicrous controller V2 that comes with the X2s as an option is an entirely different thing and a bespoke controller and programming.

But yeah - would be good to know what's being changed if it's not user-configurable even with BESST.

I didnt realize the X1 luna tune was not liked very well. good to know.... Something has to be done with these motors because bafang programming is horrible. I bought a Beast from biktrix last summer, i was expecting to program it only to discover canbus and was interested in buying an Ultra Duo but now I am not because of Canbus.

 

[rtp]

I didnt realize the X1 luna tune was not liked very well. good to know.... Something has to be done with these motors because bafang programming is horrible. I bought a Beast from biktrix last summer, i was expecting to program it only to discover canbus and was interested in buying an Ultra Duo but now I am not because of Canbus.

Yeah, there are a good # of threads on Luna's '14.5' firmware version.. even people trying to figure out why a few people's early bikes and some others seemed 'good' at lower PAS levels, etc. Not everyone, but most preferred Bafang's 14.4 or 14.6 versions over the Luna specific. Having said that, lessons learned and all - the LudiV2 controller is pretty great, and maybe even Bafang learns - eventually, or Biktrix's changes are positive.. (we can all hope)?

 

[AHicks]

Does the .pdf go into detail regarding exactly which parameters are being changed? If that were the case, there are several here that might have something to share regarding whether these changes might be seen as "desirable".

Keep in mind these "canned tunes" provided are a collection of settings, each of which may (or may not) change the focus of the tune. In other words, one may have an emphasis on some setting that would work well for a rider doing a lot of down hill, another might be for all out climbing power, and another for somebody doing a lot of cross country. If your emphasis is trail riding with a particular focus on low speed control, you may easily find NONE of those 3 "canned" tunes will do you any good, and may even be counter productive.

Before I shelled out a dime for one of them, I'd want to know a LOT more about them.

Early on, there were several fairly well written articles by fairly well known "tuners", all claiming to have the "best" tune. As time went on, ideas evolved, and as it turns out these early "tunes" for the BBSxx and Ultras weren't all that great at all. The articles though, are still excellent reference material for those wanting to get into it further....

 

[TomD]

AFAIK the Luna M600 firmware was outsourced to Bafang who sent an engineer to Luna to tune. Original firmware on very early motors was smoother, may have actually been stock firmware. The firmware that went on most Luna M600 motors prior to 2021 was worthless at low PAS, apparently was mandated by Bafang to dial back for liability reasons on ludi modded motors. Non ludi motors also got same firmware which made them unusable at low PAS. In late 2020 they switched to new firmware along with offering the BEEST tool to upgrade. FWIW, non Luna users seem happy with the stock M600 firmware, it's much smoother than the stock Ultra. I'm not sure why it's so hard for Bafang to smooth out the Ultra.

 

[AHicks]

AFAIK the Luna M600 firmware was outsourced to Bafang who sent an engineer to Luna to tune. Original firmware on very early motors was smoother, may have actually been stock firmware. The firmware that went on most Luna M600 motors prior to 2021 was worthless at low PAS, apparently was mandated by Bafang to dial back for liability reasons on ludi modded motors. Non ludi motors also got same firmware which made them unusable at low PAS. In late 2020 they switched to new firmware along with offering the BEEST tool to upgrade. FWIW, non Luna users seem happy with the stock M600 firmware, it's much smoother than the stock Ultra. I'm not sure why it's so hard for Bafang to smooth out the Ultra.

At this point, I don't think Bafang has anyone that knows how to ride a bike.

 

[rtp]

Does the .pdf go into detail regarding exactly which parameters are being changed? If that were the case, there are several here that might have something to share regarding whether these changes might be seen as "desirable".

In chatting w/ @Ridetoglide - it does not. Looks like another custom firmware, but no idea what’s changed. As @roshan seems to have had to fight w/Bafang to get even this much, perhaps he can chime in with more details, or may not due to what it seems Bafang has with everyone - an ‘odd’ relationship.

Keep in mind these "canned tunes" provided are a collection of settings, each of which may (or may not) change the focus of the tune. In other words, one may have an emphasis on some setting that would work well for a rider doing a lot of down hill, another might be for all out climbing power, and another for somebody doing a lot of cross country. If your emphasis is trail riding with a particular focus on low speed control, you may easily find NONE of those 3 "canned" tunes will do you any good, and may even be counter productive.

Before I shelled out a dime for one of them, I'd want to know a LOT more about them.

Early on, there were several fairly well written articles by fairly well known "tuners", all claiming to have the "best" tune. As time went on, ideas evolved, and as it turns out these early "tunes" for the BBSxx and Ultras weren't all that great at all. The articles though, are still excellent reference material for those wanting to get into it further....

I’m having flashbacks on automotive forced induction tuning here, but at least we held the ‘keys’ to change/program curve and test. The more Bafang tries to lock out, let alone with ‘poor’ configuration by most, the more beneficial a replacement controller or an alternate manufacturer become - at least for the US and other not-so-over-regulated markets.

Meanwhile, it’s not like China looks poorly on stealing IP and outright copying; with the ‘Smooth’ tune available freely, an option to get ‘Bafang super great firmware’ or ‘Smooth version’ would be pretty easy for them to do…

 

[rtp]

At this point, I don't think Bafang has anyone that knows how to ride a bike.

Just yep on all the above, from @TomD and the last line - not sure Bafang has anyone at all that actually rides

 

[tomjasz]

Strange that Biktrix say upgrading the firmware is a one way street. Luna sells the BESST tool with at least 3 different firmwares (for the M600) and pretty sure you can upgrade or downgrade to any of them. My recollection is that some flashed an older version of the firmware to access option to remove speed limit and then flashed a later version to get the best of both worlds.

The besst tool now requires a login to Bafang. We couldn’t use the first files they provided from our hard drives. We all should know by now that Bafang is moving from allowing end user access hamstringing resellers. Heck Luna has never been able to tie serial numbers to motor changes. Bafang even messes with the arguably biggest reseller of BBSxx series motors. Consistent support seems a farce.

 

[tomjasz]

may not due to what it seems Bafang has with everyone - an ‘odd’ relationship.

THIS!!

 

[AHicks]

In chatting w/ @Ridetoglide - it does not. Looks like another custom firmware, but no idea what’s changed. As @roshan seems to have had to fight w/Bafang to get even this much, perhaps he can chime in with more details, or may not due to what it seems Bafang has with everyone - an ‘odd’ relationship.


I’m having flashbacks on automotive forced induction tuning here, but at least we held the ‘keys’ to change/program curve and test. The more Bafang tries to lock out, let alone with ‘poor’ configuration by most, the more beneficial a replacement controller or an alternate manufacturer become - at least for the US and other not-so-over-regulated markets.

Meanwhile, it’s not like China looks poorly on stealing IP and outright copying; with the ‘Smooth’ tune available freely, an option to get ‘Bafang super great firmware’ or ‘Smooth version’ would be pretty easy for them to do…

Please please please make the "Smooth" tune available for the CanBus Ultra owners!!!!!!

 

[m@Robertson]

I'm thinking more and more I want to do one or the other flavor of a Cyc X1 if I build another bike. I have been playing with my enduro more in the last month than I think I have since I built it almost two years ago (has a Cyc X1 Pro Gen1 with a BAC800 aftermarket controller) and its a lot more versatile than I ever gave it credit for. The key was for me to let it rev up into the 'insane' range and just let it do that. Its meant to run up there and - coming from BBSxx motors and even a Cyclone, I've never run a motor where its whizzing along at up to 12k rpm's and thats a good thing. Takes some getting used to. It also is one hell of a lot more programmable with a vendor that is all about letting that happen.

 

[apalm5]

So do we think the new AM1000 V6 will have a cambus Ultra motor? I have asked FREY the question but no answer yet.

 

[tomjasz]

other flavor of a Cyc X1

Any interest in Lighteningrods? I see he now has ordered and will have 4 motors and belt versions (no news there) too.

 

[tinasdude]

It's really hard to come up with an alternative to the Ultra. It's a monster mid drive, somewhat unrefined, but oodles of power. Watt Wagons used to be a company I would recommend, due to their superb aftermarket controller for the Ultra, but they're going thru a lot of turmoil right now. If you're considering a rear hub I would look at the upcoming Shatiki from Zen ebikes as it offers a lot of bang for the buck including torque sensor.

Zen Shakti - pictures

Some high-resolution pictures of the Zen Shakti model alpha-build are presented here. Pictures of the final pre-production beta-build will be shared in early 2022. We are very grateful for those who have shown support and interest. We are investing a lot of money and time to bring value to you...

electricbikereview.com

What's up with Watt Wagons?

 

[TomD]

Supply chain issues, unexplained delays, and communication issues.

 

[apalm5]

Just had it confirmed from Frey, that they are NOT using the cambus motor on their bikes at the moment. Sticking with the G510 motor with UART for now.

 

[AHicks]

Just had it confirmed from Frey, that they are NOT using the cambus motor on their bikes at the moment. Sticking with the G510 motor with UART for now.

Interesting for sure, but I think I might ask that be listed on the bill of sale, just to make sure something isn't being lost in translation....

 

[Robanco]

My@$%^%%^ ultra programed MAX speed 37 mph , I work in the parks in PA. LAW 20 mph MAX
Not very happy at this time.

 

[tomjasz]

My@$%^%%^ ultra programed MAX speed 37 mph , I work in the parks in PA. LAW 20 mph MAX
Not very happy at this time.

???