Need Software Support on my 2017 BULLS Bike...Resolution Found.

[JohnF]

John F-I disagree completely with your statement. No one is being 'smeared' here. The facts speak for themselves no matter where the bike was purchased. The mfg BULLS needs to step in and rectify the matter at their expense. It is a brand new bike @ 4Gs and there is a caveat with the performance directly due to the functionality of the system by no fault of the owner who purchased it. A closed and shut case IMHO. Ride safe!

Bob - If you consider the firmware upgrade a clear case of fixing a manufacturing defect, then you do have a point. Seems like a gray area to me and the manufacturer did negotiate a lower cost for the buyer. This is not exactly the same situation, but after a bike purchase a retailer often does an adjustment say a month after the sale at no cost. If someone purchased the bike out of the area, would the shop be obligated to do the same for free?

Many businesses are disappearing because people purchase out of the area. In the case of bikes and cameras, people will demo, take up the salesman's time, then walk out the door and buy online to save money. I think many businesses are reasonable and understand people want to save money and will try and accommodate where they can. For example, I buy photographic equipment, some low cost accessories and some expensive camera bodies. I like supporting the local shop when I can, but they understand I will buy online in cases where they can't compete in the case of an expensive item. If the buyer had established a relationship with a local dealer then the situation would likely have never been an issue. You ride safe too!

 

[Goodair]

JohnF, good to hear from you, I am glad you decided to chime in, it's always good to hear another perspective.

The last time I checked, there was still FREE speech in our great country. Also, what do you think this forum is design to do, are we just to write about positive experiences only and give cudos to each other, that would be Facebook.

This forum is about sharing of our E bike experiences, whether its good or bad, sorry I didn't sugar coat this matter. I sure you have purchased a new car before, when a manufacturer tells you that your motor is cover for X year under warranty, don't you think this applies, we are updating the ECU of a car. My Prius just got a software update, no charge! Also, we are bringing the bikes to Authorized Network dealer for support, I understand if I took my Prius to a Honda dealer for update that I would get charge. They sign on with Bulls as a dealer and as an extension/agent of BULLS to help in the event if something goes wrong. As you can see, I am not the only one, there is a silent majority out there, wait till the Bosch CX update comes to furition next month. They have a lot more motors out there... It is going to get interesting....

 

[bob armani]

Ok, so first I would say I had no complaints about my bulls bike pre firmware update. Yes it wasn't as off the line powerful (I've ridden Bosch and owned an sduro) but of all the ebikes I've owned I actually appreciated that it felt like an extension of my riding, rather than an addition of obvious power. Once at speed that 'off the line boost' isn't relevant, and I thought the bulls did just fine when at speed compared to other ebikes.

I only rode the bike with the New firmware a mile, but I can tell they have added more up front power, particularly in the highest setting. I'll follow up somewhere on the forum here once I go for a longer ride, maybe tomorrow (but I just got another new bike soooooo that might not happen until later this week!).

paulx-Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like you have increased the N/M of torque up front after the firmware update in a strange sense. Oh yeah, you purchased another ebike -Congrats! I have to ask if I may, what did you get a killer deal on this time? Speed pedelec I hope LOL.

 

[bob armani]

The reality isn't so simple on either side of the coin. The odds of even having a local shop are pretty slim to begin with. This is a burgeoning segment in an otherwise established industry.

The customer may not always be right, but they do deserve aftermarket support, and I do believe that means every dealer should support warranty and update work, at bulls expense. Otherwise, give the customer the ability to update (and the liability if they brick...) their bike.

For the record I had no complaints about the prior firmware for the bike. I happened to have driven 5 hours to buy another bike, and brought my bulls along for the update. If I didn't make that trip, I should just be SOL?

Aftermarket support of the electric aspect of our bikes is a real issue for this industry in the US. Let me make this clear, it is NOT a bulls issue. it is not even a major player ebike company issue (you could have a local trek or specialized dealer that won't or even can't support you).

These companies need to take the next step and come up with a model that services the electric aspect of our bike for 90+% of their buyers locally, regardless of original purchase location.

Maybe the demo van should be accompanied by a service van everywhere they go. Keep a running list of firmware updates online, and the customer access to at least see what firmware they have. I could on!

The ebike industry in the US is still new enough to adapt. Best to do it now, when it gets too big, it'll be much more difficult to change.

paulx-Great ideas here for updates! I have a Garmin, Magellan and speed camera detection devices that I can easily plug into my USB port and get firmware updates at sometimes no charge. Why not setup the ebike updates the same way on all applicable interface units sold with the bike IMHO.

 

[bob armani]

Bob - If you consider the firmware upgrade a clear case of fixing a manufacturing defect, then you do have a point. Seems like a gray area to me and the manufacturer did negotiate a lower cost for the buyer. This is not exactly the same situation, but after a bike purchase a retailer often does an adjustment say a month after the sale at no cost. If someone purchased the bike out of the area, would the shop be obligated to do the same for free?

Many businesses are disappearing because people purchase out of the area. In the case of bikes and cameras, people will demo, take up the salesman's time, then walk out the door and buy online to save money. I think many businesses are reasonable and understand people want to save money and will try and accommodate where they can. For example, I buy photographic equipment, some low cost accessories and some expensive camera bodies. I like supporting the local shop when I can, but they understand I will buy online in cases where they can't compete in the case of an expensive item. If the buyer had established a relationship with a local dealer then the situation would likely have never been an issue. You ride safe too!

John F- Yes you are correct with giving your local business a chance to compete. But I think that BULLS needs to step in and reimburse the local dealer for the updates applied to the bike if they cannot provide them for the buyer/customer themselves. I always like to support my local business and give them a fair shake at giving them the business also. If I walk in and take their time, I'll be free to give them business on lets say accessories and normal bike tuneups etc to compensate them for their time and attention they have provided. As Goodair has indicated, I hope there are other companies watching these threads so we can set an example of good ole customer service for their patrons. Take Care.

 

[bob armani]

Bob, its "under power and slow," = lack of power with any grade over 10%, we spent most of our time riding in mountain in So Cal. The Brose below 10% rides like all of them, but anything over 10%, the Brose is a dog, anything over 15% be prepare for a workout, over 20%, you better be running a 36t in the rear. In the mountains, we rarely go past 12-15 mph on single track riding, but in certain areas it requires torque to get you out, there were it lacks the power.

Brose stealthy look is my favorite, out of the Big 3, but torque power is my least fav....

Thank you! Yes, I love the stealthy look also of the BULLS. I am a flatlander in the midwest, so I am unable to test the grades you have to see the performance issues on these motors. I have seen these tested by Court Rye, and do not remember him complaining that much about the loss of power you are receiving with your BULLS. As Paulx has indicated, you should receive more torque up front after the firmware upgrade. At least for now, this issue can be less of a concern for me being I am not in mountainous terrain as you currently are in. Hope to hear back of the outcome and see if Barney and his crew rectify this matter. Ride safe!

 

[JohnF]

Bob and Goodair - good comments and I think in my initial post I was a bit too harsh. I interpreted the issue as more of a performance enhancement than correcting a problem via warranty, but you guys are closer to this than I am, of course.

I think a solution is for the manufacturer to make clear what he will cover under warranty and whether any work is to be done at no cost to the customer at any dealer. I have purchased 2 Priuses in the past and a couple of Toyota trucks. Warranty work is never factored into the purchase price. It is always billed to Toyota so it doesn't matter if you take the car to where you purchased it or somewhere else. With some products there are limits. For example, if you buy a gray market camera from Hong Kong or Japan, not only will Canon or Nikon not honor the international warranty but in many cases they will refuse to service it warranty or no warranty. The dealers in Hong Kong or Japan may not tell the consumer this, and if they don't check out the websites of the manufacturers they would not know.

I suspect in the case of bikes, some or all labor costs are covered by the dealer out of what they made on profit for the sale of the bike. That would work in many or most cases where the service is performed where the bike was purchased. If all warranty work was billed back to the manufacturer, that would eliminate the problem but for a fledgling industry, it might introduce too much accounting overhead.

 

[Robie]

Bob Armani, that's right , Bulls fs 3 plus thinks it's a Billy Goat ! Climbs like all get out. And does it oh so quietly . And plus tires really help. You've got to get out to Colorado, and ride some great e-mtb country. Or check out Hocking State Park, ( Old Man's Cave area), Athens Ohio. It's like a national park. The cabins to rent are huge.That's where I'd head in your area.

 

[fxr3]

Ok, so first I would say I had no complaints about my bulls bike pre firmware update. Yes it wasn't as off the line powerful (I've ridden Bosch and owned an sduro) but of all the ebikes I've owned I actually appreciated that it felt like an extension of my riding, rather than an addition of obvious power. Once at speed that 'off the line boost' isn't relevant, and I thought the bulls did just fine when at speed compared to other ebikes.

I only rode the bike with the New firmware a mile, but I can tell they have added more up front power, particularly in the highest setting. I'll follow up somewhere on the forum here once I go for a longer ride, maybe tomorrow (but I just got another new bike soooooo that might not happen until later this week!).

Long time lurker and decided to sign-up and post to this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight. My bike is from another manufacturer and I have no relationship with Bulls but I felt compelled to post because I don't like at all what I'm reading here. Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances but based on what I've read here the buyer's conduct is similar to what buyers try to do in other situations relating to different products and needs to be challenged.

I believe the manufacturer who said all bikes have the current firmware when they are shipped from the warehouse. Buyer decided to not support local bike shops and maybe save some money buying out of the area. Not a problem - his choice. The out of area retailer is at fault for not flashing the latest firmware. Now the buyer is angry because the local shops are expected to support him for free after he chose to not support them. The manufacturer appears to have made a good faith effort to help him, but his anger is directed at the manufacturer because they would not either cover the cost of of a local shop's labor or otherwise try to coerce a local shop to perform the upgrade for free. A better recourse would have been to contact the out of area dealer and see if they would reimburse $100 of what he paid to cover the cost of the local shop's labor.

What is offensive to me is is the use of social media, this forum in particular, into trying to intimidate the manufacturer to cover for the choice the buyer made or punish the manufacturer for not complying. Would have been better and in my opinion more honorable to suck up the costs and realize the $100 offsets the probable lower price he paid to the out of area shop. The customer is not always right.

Long time lurker and decided to sign-up and post to this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight. My bike is from another manufacturer and I have no relationship with Bulls but I felt compelled to post because I don't like at all what I'm reading here. Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances but based on what I've read here the buyer's conduct is similar to what buyers try to do in other situations relating to different products and needs to be challenged.

I believe the manufacturer who said all bikes have the current firmware when they are shipped from the warehouse. Buyer decided to not support local bike shops and maybe save some money buying out of the area. Not a problem - his choice. The out of area retailer is at fault for not flashing the latest firmware. Now the buyer is angry because the local shops are expected to support him for free after he chose to not support them. The manufacturer appears to have made a good faith effort to help him, but his anger is directed at the manufacturer because they would not either cover the cost of of a local shop's labor or otherwise try to coerce a local shop to perform the upgrade for free. A better recourse would have been to contact the out of area dealer and see if they would reimburse $100 of what he paid to cover the cost of the local shop's labor.

What is offensive to me is is the use of social media, this forum in particular, into trying to intimidate the manufacturer to cover for the choice the buyer made or punish the manufacturer for not complying. Would have been better and in my opinion more honorable to suck up the costs and realize the $100 offsets the probable lower price he paid to the out of area shop. The customer is not always right.

Long time lurker and decided to sign-up and post to this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight. My bike is from another manufacturer and I have no relationship with Bulls but I felt compelled to post because I don't like at all what I'm reading here. Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances but based on what I've read here the buyer's conduct is similar to what buyers try to do in other situations relating to different products and needs to be challenged.

I believe the manufacturer who said all bikes have the current firmware when they are shipped from the warehouse. Buyer decided to not support local bike shops and maybe save some money buying out of the area. Not a problem - his choice. The out of area retailer is at fault for not flashing the latest firmware. Now the buyer is angry because the local shops are expected to support him for free after he chose to not support them. The manufacturer appears to have made a good faith effort to help him, but his anger is directed at the manufacturer because they would not either cover the cost of of a local shop's labor or otherwise try to coerce a local shop to perform the upgrade for free. A better recourse would have been to contact the out of area dealer and see if they would reimburse $100 of what he paid to cover the cost of the local shop's labor.

What is offensive to me is is the use of social media, this forum in particular, into trying to intimidate the manufacturer to cover for the choice the buyer made or punish the manufacturer for not complying. Would have been better and in my opinion more honorable to suck up the costs and realize the $100 offsets the probable lower price he paid to the out of area shop. The customer is not always right.

We all have a dog in this fight, and already Bulls has gained the most from this thread. Like you, in respect of speaking my own opinion, It would have taken MUCH more wrong doing than what poster felt he endured in order for me to attempt to damage a company's reputation.
Bulls USA, holds plenty of responsibility in this matter, and I'm surprised they were not better prepared to deal with it. They clearly support NOT buying from local dealer, and let price dictate where bike is purchased. On their website- they have a typical area code map thing to figure out where closest dealer is for you.
On same page is a list of dealers- 4 of first 5 on list are known to most as online discount ebike slingers. That's no accident- It is the best way to move bicycles.
They also proudly sell their non ebikes direct, and have a chart explaining the benefits of buying direct that clearly uses cost savings as main benefit.
There is nothing wrong with that, it pains a mfg. to give away 50%+ or- to a dealer who may or may not be really representing their product in a way that justifies that discount before or after the sale.
Let the worlds biggest and most successful company e a rough guide to what's allowable in running a business. APPLE sells direct and through dealers- basically doing what was considered impossible- competing with their own dealers for sales!
If Bulls learned anything from this, it should be to figure out how to allow firmware updates to be handled by end user, that would benefit bike owner, LBS, and BULLS.
My Stromer does it like apple and many others do it, automatically, or semi automatically- how ever you want to describe it.

 

[fxr3]

I gotta quit following up my own posts........
IF I HAD IT ALL TO DO OVER AS OF RIGHT NOW- would I buy the bulls fs45 over any other mid drive competitor?
YES.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

What is offensive to me is is the use of social media

No manufacturer can force its dealer to offer free service to a customer that bought the bike at another shop, but with system updates all of the large manufacturers should make sure their dealers give free updates on all of their products regardless of where the bike was purchased, even if that means reimbursing the dealer. This is the cost of having proprietary software that allows these companies to enforce conservative motor regimes and reduce warranty claims. A user programmable drive system is the right of any consumer paying these prices, and if changing the parameters voids the motor warranty that's a choice the buyer should have.

 

[LimboJim]

Bob, its "under power and slow," = lack of power with any grade over 10%, we spent most of our time riding in mountain in So Cal. The Brose below 10% rides like all of them, but anything over 10%, the Brose is a dog, anything over 15% be prepare for a workout, over 20%, you better be running a 36t in the rear. In the mountains, we rarely go past 12-15 mph on single track riding, but in certain areas it requires torque to get you out, there were it lacks the power.

Brose stealthy look is my favorite, out of the Big 3, but torque power is my least fav....

My Bulls...FS3 Plus, rated at 90Nm, has at least as much torque as my 80Nm Yamaha-powered SDURO AllMtn Plus, and both eMTBs climb 20% grade hills with relative ease. The Brose motor's definitely more subtle, with its peak power coming at lower cadence than my Bosch, but I've yet to experience a CX. The Yamaha also seems to peak at a lower cadence than Bosch.

FWIW, I posted about a broken chain experience I recently had with my Bulls in its first 120 miles or so, which I believe was caused by large chainring to large sprocket cross-chaining. My concern is that, when the chain broke, the Brose motor spun furiously fast, making a horrible, very high-pitched whining sound for several seconds. I've broken a hi-torque ebike chain before (on my 2015 iZiP Sumo), and its much lower-tech TranzX motor shut right off.

The fact that the Brose kept spinning makes me worry about the long-term - it rode fine after we fixed the chain but it was an AWFUL sound! Barney's put in a query with Bulls' Germany HQ because he's never heard of this happening.

 

[JRA]

I hate to point this out but it may only get worse: http://boingboing.net/2017/04/22/drm-eschatology.html

Not that this is the issue that started this thread but it does show that going forward the manufacturers hold all the cards in regards to software and can choose to share it as they feel fit and penalize those that try to hack in to it. To me the very fact that they have software to begin with that can be updated means that they already are in control. I am sticking with open source equipment for the foreseeable future as it works just fine for my needs and can be upgraded as technology advances easily and more economically.

 

[Goodair]

We all have a dog in this fight, and already Bulls has gained the most from this thread. Like you, in respect of speaking my own opinion, It would have taken MUCH more wrong doing than what poster felt he endured in order for me to attempt to damage a company's reputation.
Bulls USA, holds plenty of responsibility in this matter, and I'm surprised they were not better prepared to deal with it. They clearly support NOT buying from local dealer, and let price dictate where bike is purchased. On their website- they have a typical area code map thing to figure out where closest dealer is for you.
On same page is a list of dealers- 4 of first 5 on list are known to most as online discount ebike slingers. That's no accident- It is the best way to move bicycles.
They also proudly sell their non ebikes direct, and have a chart explaining the benefits of buying direct that clearly uses cost savings as main benefit.
There is nothing wrong with that, it pains a mfg. to give away 50%+ or- to a dealer who may or may not be really representing their product in a way that justifies that discount before or after the sale.
Let the worlds biggest and most successful company e a rough guide to what's allowable in running a business. APPLE sells direct and through dealers- basically doing what was considered impossible- competing with their own dealers for sales!
If Bulls learned anything from this, it should be to figure out how to allow firmware updates to be handled by end user, that would benefit bike owner, LBS, and BULLS.
My Stromer does it like apple and many others do it, automatically, or semi automatically- how ever you want to describe it.

Very simple,,,,add Bluetooth, use BULLS app to update. I have a TACX Neo trainer, and have performed so many updates with ease, just logon to their app, the app updates the unit seamlessly....

 

[AguassissiM]

I think all bikes should be factory equipped with Bluetooth just in case we need to or like to make software updates or see any diagnostic information to troubleshoot problems when they arise.
@Goodair any info how to add Bluetooth to existing system.

 

[Goodair]

The only BT bike with software app that I know of is the Specialized Levo, they use Specialized's Command Center to monitor and adjust performance, I don't know how extensive the capturing and analysis of data is with their system. It would be nice with power meter info, GPS data, Strava link, etc. There are apps that do that already, just a matter of bike companies adopting existing technology.

In a couple of years, you'll see full integration, we are still on the ground floor. Think of the ppl driving the first Model T's, we are those ppl...

 

[AguassissiM]

Thank you @Goodair
Made me laugh... first Model T's.....

 

[bob armani]

Bob Armani, that's right , Bulls fs 3 plus thinks it's a Billy Goat ! Climbs like all get out. And does it oh so quietly . And plus tires really help. You've got to get out to Colorado, and ride some great e-mtb country. Or check out Hocking State Park, ( Old Man's Cave area), Athens Ohio. It's like a national park. The cabins to rent are huge.That's where I'd head in your area.

Hi Robie-Thanks for the heads up. Sounds like a great place to check out for a new adventure! No sure why Goodair had a sluggish motor on 10-20% grades. SOunds like your fs3 is kicking ass big time! Good for you. WOuld like to see a picture of your bike if you have one! GO BULLS!

 

[fxr3]

Hi Robie-Thanks for the heads up. Sounds like a great place to check out for a new adventure! No sure why Goodair had a sluggish motor on 10-20% grades. SOunds like your fs3 is kicking ass big time! Good for you. WOuld like to see a picture of your bike if you have one! GO BULLS!

I'm with the billygoat thing- My bulls will climb up a 4 to 1(25%, 14degree)slope in low gear with minimal effort. It also doesn't have much trouble getting into low 20's, but maintaining low-mid twenties on level windless road requires far more pedal power than Stromer or my abilities have. Thats where I hope firmware updates will help.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Brose motor performance notwithstanding, the title of this thread is not an accurate or fair assessment of BULLS USA , particularly since they stepped up and fixed what is really a dealer-buyer issue, IMO. The fair thing would be to make the at-fault party pay for the cost of an upgrade at a LBS. This of course would be the (online?) shop that sold you the bike and shipped it without the latest update. I think you posted that you live in So Cal near BULLS USA HQ. So there are local BULLS dealers near you, but you went with a shop far from you and most likely got a better deal (?). There are always trade-offs. Point is slamming BULLS USA customer service for this example is not fair, in my experience, they provide great customer service.