Yamaha assist levels and percentage

[Velome]

How many assist levels does the Yamaha have and what percentage assist per level? Bosch has four assist levels @ 50%, 120%, 190%, 275% for the Bosch speed unit.

 

[Velome]

PW, PW-SE, or PW-X?

For PW, I'm not sure the Yamaha levels can be compared to Bosch as the Yamaha is essentially a 1 level of assist drive.

Four levels of assist:

- ECO+ = marketing mode and is totally unusable. Essentially provides the same level of assist as no assist but with the drive on. Like that Yamaha can say that their drive has a range of 150 kilometers.

- ECO = Saves battery, but is mostly unusable unless you're extremely fit, have flat roads, or like travelling at an average of 10.6 km/h.

- Standard = The only usable mode.

- High = Offers the same level of assist as Standard but uses more battery.

I try to use ECO but it's not nearly as good as Bosch's implementation. Moreover the difference between ECO and Standard is pretty sizable on the Yamaha.

I had the choice between Bosch and Yamaha, but opted for the Yamaha. It's a choice I wouldn't make again because I do a lot of touring and the drive is painfully difficult to use in ECO mode. My typical range in summer is around 38 kilometers for a 500Wh battery in Standard mode, which is frankly not much. If I'm willing to torture myself I can get 50kms in ECO mode.

I have a friend that just purchased the Giant Road-E+ Yamaha powered eBike and he said he rode in the lowest assist level for 30 miles and at the end of the ride his Yamaha computer said he had 78% left. That would translate to 136 miles which is about what you indicated.


I have a Trek XM700+ with the speed drive. It has a 400 watt battery. Recently I rode it at 18-20 mph for 31 miles in the “tour” assist level (2nd lowest assist level @ 120%), then 15-16 mph for 10 miles in the same assist level and when I finished with 41 miles on my battery my Bosch computer indicated I had 2 miles of range left. This ride was on flat roads.

 

[Bicyclista]

PW, PW-SE, or PW-X?

For PW, I'm not sure the Yamaha levels can be compared to Bosch as the Yamaha is essentially a 1 level of assist drive.

Four levels of assist:

- ECO+ = marketing mode and is totally unusable. Essentially provides the same level of assist as no assist but with the drive on. Like that Yamaha can say that their drive has a range of 150 kilometers.

- ECO = Saves battery, but is mostly unusable unless you're extremely fit, have flat roads, or like travelling at an average of 10.6 km/h.

- Standard = The only usable mode.

- High = Offers the same level of assist as Standard but uses more battery.

I try to use ECO but it's not nearly as good as Bosch's implementation. Moreover the difference between ECO and Standard is pretty sizable on the Yamaha.

I had the choice between Bosch and Yamaha, but opted for the Yamaha. It's a choice I wouldn't make again because I do a lot of touring and the drive is painfully difficult to use in ECO mode. My typical range in summer is around 38 kilometers for a 500Wh battery in Standard mode, which is frankly not much. If I'm willing to torture myself I can get 50kms in ECO mode.

@JayVee, I have a Haibike AllMtn Plus with the Yamaha motor, and I am puzzled by your results. I ride with the HIGH assist level most of the time, and my range is around 40 miles (not kilometers!), in a mix of flat, downhill, and uphill terrain. I also find that there is a difference in assist level between STANDARD and HIGH. I agree with you that the ECO modes are useless.

 

[Manu]

In the case of Yayvee is a speed pedelec, which is a big difference with a pedelec or pedelec unloked.La speed pedelec is designed to travel 45km in 60 minutes and pedelec 25km in 60 minutes.

https://www.haibike.com/en/ES/bikes/641/2018-sduro-trekking-s-8-0#specs

In Europe Yamaha sells a 500w engine or drive for speed pedelec that is not in the USA.
Technically in flat terrain it gives 45km traveled / 60 minutes,spending all the 500w battery charged in 60 minutes....,
with maximum assistance
if you want more autonomy second battery.
this speed pedelec has less autonomy than a pedelec but has gained 60 minutes/1 hour because a pedelec needs 2 hours to do the same.....50 km
Speed pedelec 45km/60minutes .....90km/120minutes...... 135km 180minutes.................500w........1000w......1500w.
Pedelec 25km/60minutes.......50km/120minutes...75km 180minutes..................250w..........500w........750w.
Overcoming the 25km / 60 minutes you need more energy and drive engine to reach more kilometers at the same time.

 

[rocky289]

I have a Haibike SDURO Fullnine RC which is Yamaha powered.
I use it for exercise & have clocked up almost 7000k's.
I ride mostly formed gravel tracks which do have some hilly bits.
I use the eco+ setting mostly & only up the power for the steeper bits or head winds.
I charge the battery after four rides which is usually around 100k's.
I forgot to charge it on one occasion & it went to 125k.
I actually tried to run it flat on that occasion & finished up riding up a very steep hill just to do so.
When it gets below one bar the display starts flashing.
In that state I was still able to ride a kilometre home with out loosing power.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I think the Giant uses a slightly more advanced drive which doesn't resist the efforts of the rider as much as the regular PW series. That's the biggest problem I have with the PW. I can actually ride further with a 400Wh battery and a Bosch drive than a 500Wh battery and a Yamaha drive. The ECO and Tour modes provided by Bosch seem a lot easier on the knees than the assist levels provided by Yamaha. The Bosch drive provides assistance even in the higher cadence ranges, whereas the Yamaha tends to slowly cut off after 95 RPM. With the PW it's very difficult for me to tell how much I'm exerting myself during a ride, and the next day my knees usually ache if I've ridden in ECO mode a lot.

I think I can try to explain that by what available information we have in the EBR forum. The Yamaha drive is a highly optimized motor within a specified cadence range (50-80 RPM). I think the gear reduction is too low in a way that above 80 RPM the motor is already spinning beyond it's efficient range. A soon as the torque goes down (70 rpm, broad gray zone at the upper chart), the power will plateau briefly before it starts to also dip down (80 rpm, yellowgreen curve at the lower chart). And you will feel it on your legs that you are on your own without the motor assist. Your optimum cadence here is 60-80 rpm (easiest at 70 rpm).

This is even more apparent at the lower assist level since both toque (yellow curve ) and power also further goes down respectively. At the lowest assist level (yellow green lower curve), maybe your effective assisted cadence range will be 40-60 rpm.

Considering that this motor is rpm sensitive, it is very important to have a cadence meter so you will not be pushing too hard but rather share the effort with your motor.

One disadvantage of not being able to easily attain higher rpm is the difficulty to gather speed and momentum before the upshift.

Below is a simulation of the motor at full assist level (red and blue curves) and lowest assist level (faded red and blue curves). Ignore the vertical dashed lines, the black load curves, and green efficiency curves for a moment.
Multiply the RPM by a factor of 0.2 to correspond to the cadence at the x axis.

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulato...add=false&blue=Lbs&throt_b=21&k=1.29&k_b=1.29

Notice that even at the lowest assist level there is still full torque at the start up. Yamaha calls this as the "Zero Cadence" feature.

 

[Manu]

These graphs are for hub engines do not include assistance above 100% or multiplier group disk and cassette

I leave the direct links and manuals.
Yamaha pw
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/YAMAHA-Haibike-SDURO.pdf

Yamaha pwx
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/YAMAHA-PW-X-Manual-2017.pdf

Spitzing
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/SPITZING-M1-Mittelmotor_dt_A5_Stand-16-07.pdf

Brose
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/BROSE-ebike-Manual-English.pdf

Shimano steps
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Shimano-Steps-E8000-Electric-Bike-User-Manual.pdf

Bosch cx
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Bosch-Performance-Line-CX-2017.pdf


for the speed of 25km / hour any engine is good to highlight the last ones in 250w and 350w the pwx and the bosch.

For system performance when you do not have assistance, the yamaha with 2 plates is superior because it allows speeds of 25km in flat terrain with lower cadence and in descending terrain supporting with human torque up to 45km / h, that gives you an advantage over systems that need higher cadences or that simply are not made to be able to give torque at those speeds.
this translates into a less energetic expenditure of the rider which allows him to save that energy for more travel.
and gain time with respect to a less optimized system.
In Yamaha, its multiplier system covers the range of up to 45km / hour providing human torque along with the engine torque.
The system in pwx has a mode that is called extra hight, which provides the curve seen in the red diagram of the previous post

Most of the cyclists are around 60 and 90 rpm of pedaling, only the professionals maintain higher rhythms for clock times larger spaces, but this is a pedelec of 24 kilos not a carbon bicycle of 8 kilos, in pedelec it is used its level of assistance in the mountain climbs and reserves its battery in the slopes and flat terrain. The systems S-pedelc 45km / h spend more battery by the weight, the extra 20km / hour more than speed, friction to the wind and gravity more the mountain climbs.

The torque from 0 km / hour is a good system that allows you to start the pedelec with hight mode depending on the gradient or degrees of climb with the plate of 38/44/48 teeth and cassette of 13 teeth that is a flat terrain configuration and that you could not Use in a normal condition. You use the climbing cycling position that is to be up on the pedals without sitting down.
When you have selected the dish with less teeth and cassette of more teeth you can sit down.


going up the hill use high mode to get started.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

These graphs are for hub engines do not include assistance above 100% or multiplier group disk and cassette

I leave the direct links and manuals.
Yamaha pw
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/YAMAHA-Haibike-SDURO.pdf

Yamaha pwx
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/YAMAHA-PW-X-Manual-2017.pdf

Spitzing
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/SPITZING-M1-Mittelmotor_dt_A5_Stand-16-07.pdf

Brose
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/BROSE-ebike-Manual-English.pdf

Shimano steps
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Shimano-Steps-E8000-Electric-Bike-User-Manual.pdf

Bosch cx
http://e-mtb.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Bosch-Performance-Line-CX-2017.pdf


for the speed of 25km / hour any engine is good to highlight the last ones in 250w and 350w the pwx and the bosch.

For system performance when you do not have assistance, the yamaha with 2 plates is superior because it allows speeds of 25km in flat terrain with lower cadence and in descending terrain supporting with human torque up to 45km / h, that gives you an advantage over systems that need higher cadences or that simply are not made to be able to give torque at those speeds.
this translates into a less energetic expenditure of the rider which allows him to save that energy for more travel.
and gain time with respect to a less optimized system.
In Yamaha, its multiplier system covers the range of up to 45km / hour providing human torque along with the engine torque.
The system in pwx has a mode that is called extra hight, which provides the curve seen in the red diagram of the previous post

Most of the cyclists are around 60 and 90 rpm of pedaling, only the professionals maintain higher rhythms for clock times larger spaces, but this is a pedelec of 24 kilos not a carbon bicycle of 8 kilos, in pedelec it is used its level of assistance in the mountain climbs and reserves its battery in the slopes and flat terrain. The systems S-pedelc 45km / h spend more battery by the weight, the extra 20km / hour more than speed, friction to the wind and gravity more the mountain climbs.

The torque from 0 km / hour is a good system that allows you to start the pedelec with hight mode depending on the gradient or degrees of climb with the plate of 38/44/48 teeth and cassette of 13 teeth that is a flat terrain configuration and that you could not Use in a normal condition. You use the climbing cycling position that is to be up on the pedals without sitting down.
When you have selected the dish with less teeth and cassette of more teeth you can sit down.


going up the hill use high mode to get started.

Hi Manu,

I find this figure perplexing.

The zero cadence here shows no torque at zero cadence which is contradicting to what Yamaha had made us believe as previously highlighted.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

It would seem that they deleted the 0 RPM on the chart for advertising purpose? If so, then would it actually look like this?

Or are they talking about different motors?
Another thing baffling is the chart indicated that it has full torque all the way to 180 rpm? S0 a PW drive has full torque of 70nm at 180 RPM would produce 1300 watts! Doesn't make sense.
http://www.magtrol.com/support/motorpower_calc.html

Even Yamaha's own website published the maximum supported RPM's for each motor. PW (100 RPM), PW SE (110 RPM), and PWX (120 RPM). In the US, the PW has 3 assist levels. However, Europian models have 4 assist levels for PW and PW SE. Five assist levels for PWX.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Court also commented how his cadence is limited (100 RPM max) which supports the torque curve chart above of zero assist at 100 RPM (actually it starts to fade from 80 RPM until it's all gone at 100 RPM).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=975&v=Sa_h7LBMQ3k

The PWX has torque increase from 70 to 80NM and maximum cadence assist increased to 120 RPM. But the 80 NM torque starts to drop from about 65 RPM all the way to 120 RPM by then, there is already zero support.

You can skip to 16:32 of the video if you want to see the actual ride review of the PWX.

Here, at 0:55 portion of the video, Yamaha would make us believe that it would kick dirt from a dead stop (zero cadence).

ADDENDUM:

I stand corrected on the torque curve at low assist level.

That yellow curve is a wrong representation at low assist level. Yamaha (as well as other major mid drive brands) uses "proportional assist" that samples the rider's input torque every thousandths of a second (millisecond) and multiply it according to the assist level (50%, 100%, 190%, 280%, and 320% ). The torque curve can be any shape depending on the rider's input at any given cadence.

However, the output is limited up to a certain maximum level. Here, the maximum power the Yamaha can produce at different rpm is represented by a green curve. Other mid drives are also charted for comparison.

 

[Manu]

DC drive does not attend more than 120 rpm.
The performance of a drive unit is determined by the copper winding and the thickness of this.
More optimized for more newtom and less revolutions or less newtom and more revolutions.
All drive unit models have a button with more than 100% assistance, naturally both the drive unit and the battery and the controller setting have been designed for it.
The assistance level that exceeds 100% of the drive unit consumes more watts than the established design.
It also reduces autonomy or range in kilometers.
In the table with different drive units in turbo mode all burn more watts than originally established.(EBIKE MOTOR PERFORMANCE) Yamaha PW 250w drive unit burn 490w in high mode,Bosch cx 350w in high mode 575w,etc,etc,etc.

Minute 0.45 Comparison of extra high mode torque in pw-x, pw-x in standard mode and pw in standar or high mode.
Minute 2.20 low rpm the drive unit give torque.......same in pw with less torque.....Other drive units do not give torque at low rpm or cadence do not give torque.

You are climbing a mountain behind some cars, you stop, you need to start, you need a response from the drive unit now,do not wait to reach 40 or 60 rpm the others systems.
Speed zero/second zero.

The question is ... ¿do you really need 120/180rpm?
Disc of 48 teeth x 11 teeth cassette and wheel 42-622 speed 69.7km / hour/104,5 km/hour.....
Disc 44 63,9km/h 95,8km/h
Dish 38 55,2km/h /82,8km/h
Dish 22 31,9km/h / 47,9km/h
In terrain flat or downhill.
you need much more than 40 newtow at those rpm.
My top speed down the mountain with my trekking on a plate 48 x 11 is 62km / h, weight of the rider, pedelec, gravity, kinetic energy + human torque and outside assistance against wind resistance ....... on the ground Flat is not going to be better and climbing the impossible mountain, to maintain those speeds you need more torque.

Revolutions and torque should go the same way, because at more speed you need more torque for that same speed.

I do not know the graphics of newtow in bosch or spitzing,
theory the spizing gives 120 newtom and has version drive unit center,pedelec ,s-pedelec, R-pedelec.

¿How many minutes can a human pedal at 120/180 rpm?

 

[Trail Cruiser]

DC drive does not attend more than 120 rpm.
The performance of a drive unit is determined by the copper winding and the thickness of this.
More optimized for more newtom and less revolutions or less newtom and more revolutions.
All drive unit models have a button with more than 100% assistance, naturally both the drive unit and the battery and the controller setting have been designed for it.
The assistance level that exceeds 100% of the drive unit consumes more watts than the established design.
It also reduces autonomy or range in kilometers.
In the table with different drive units in turbo mode all burn more watts than originally established.(EBIKE MOTOR PERFORMANCE) Yamaha PW 250w drive unit burn 490w in high mode,Bosch cx 350w in high mode 575w,etc,etc,etc.

Minute 0.45 Comparison of extra high mode torque in pw-x, pw-x in standard mode and pw in standar or high mode.
Minute 2.20 low rpm the drive unit give torque.......same in pw with less torque.....Other drive units do not give torque at low rpm or cadence do not give torque.

You are climbing a mountain behind some cars, you stop, you need to start, you need a response from the drive unit now,do not wait to reach 40 or 60 rpm the others systems.
Speed zero/second zero.

The question is ... ¿do you really need 120/180rpm?
Disc of 48 teeth x 11 teeth cassette and wheel 42-622 speed 69.7km / hour/104,5 km/hour.....
Disc 44 63,9km/h 95,8km/h
Dish 38 55,2km/h /82,8km/h
Dish 22 31,9km/h / 47,9km/h
In terrain flat or downhill.
you need much more than 40 newtow at those rpm.
My top speed down the mountain with my trekking on a plate 48 x 11 is 62km / h, weight of the rider, pedelec, gravity, kinetic energy + human torque and outside assistance against wind resistance ....... on the ground Flat is not going to be better and climbing the impossible mountain, to maintain those speeds you need more torque.

Revolutions and torque should go the same way, because at more speed you need more torque for that same speed.

I do not know the graphics of newtow in bosch or spitzing,
theory the spizing gives 120 newtom and has version drive unit center,pedelec ,s-pedelec, R-pedelec.

¿How many minutes can a human pedal at 120/180 rpm?

Some people, such as most road cyclists, like to maintain high cadence. People with bad knees, like me, also prefer high cadence (to attain the same power) over the low cadence/high torque in order to protect my knees from getting hurt. Here's a video of long duration high cadence on a non-electric bike, with the rider explaining the benefits of high cadence.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Some people, such as most road cyclists, like to maintain high cadence. People with bad knees, like me, also prefer high cadence (to attain the same power) over the low cadence/high torque in order to protect my knees from getting hurt. Here's a video of long duration high cadence on a non-electric bike, with the rider explaining the benefits of high cadence.

Cadence is a completely subjective thing.
I prefer 75-80 and here is a test conducted by GCN.

Some elite athletes like Tony Martin like to spin at low cadence and some others at high cadence. The results in this video can be surprising for you.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Cadence is a completely subjective thing.
I prefer 75-80 and here is a test conducted by GCN.

Some elite athletes like Tony Martin like to spin at low cadence and some others at high cadence. The results in this video can be surprising for you.

Hi Ravi, thanks for pointing that out. There were actually 2 more videos in connection to the topic of cadence after that one. The surprising part there was the lactate level is higher at the higher cadence. This is in contradiction to the common notion among road cyclists to go high rpm to increase circulation and flush away lactic acid accumulation (and prevent muscle cramps).

My suspicion is that the high cadence test was done in the first part and I suspect the body and the circulation has not fully acclimatized/optimized yet to the physical activity (only ten minutes) to flush out the lactic acid. The other possible explanation is that the ratio of lactic acid released vs lactic acid retained in the active muscles is higher in the high cadence. Or both.

Their conclusion is that cadence preference (self-selected cadence) is different to different people. However, it was recommended to train to different range of cadence (low, medium, and high) since each category have their own value, such as going up a hill, cruising at a steady speed, or sprinting to pass another cyclist (or just want to have a good aerobic exercise).

That being said, I prefer an ebike that can provide cadence support, not just in the low cadence range but also in the higher cadence limits.

Peace.

 

[Roxlimn]

I ride to work on a Dirt E with a 400 Wh battery. I still want to buy a 500Wh one but local Giant customer service kind of sucks. The Dirt E 2 is powered by a Yamaha PW engine, but Giant provides the software and battery, I believe.

I have Eco, Normal, and Sport. That's it. I can also turn off the bike. I usually carry enough to puff out two Ortlieb backrollers in clothes, chargers, and batteries for my work stuff. Not near 25kg, but maybe 20 pounds. I'm 205 lbs myself.

The Eco mode is quite usable, especially on flat terrain. On 1-2% grades, I don't bother upping the assistance. It's good enough. I pump it up to Normal or Sport when I'm tired or just don't want to put in an effort for one reason or another (cars puffing black smoke is a pretty good reason!).

I get something like 30 miles on Sport, 40 miles on Normal, 60+ miles on Eco. I do also use a push bike and I can cruise at 30 kph on it if the road is flat, pretty easily. I'm not sure how fit that is, but I get passed a lot. On flat terrain, I sometimes turn off the engine and cruise at about 15 kph if I'm not in a hurry - usually if it's a nice place and I want to enjoy the air.

 

[Eddd]

Hi Manu,

I find this figure perplexing.

The zero cadence here shows no torque at zero cadence which is contradicting to what Yamaha had made us believe as previously highlighted.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

It would seem that they deleted the 0 RPM on the chart for advertising purpose? If so, then would it actually look like this?
View attachment 19469
Or are they talking about different motors?
Another thing baffling is the chart indicated that it has full torque all the way to 180 rpm? S0 a PW drive has full torque of 70nm at 180 RPM would produce 1300 watts! Doesn't make sense.
http://www.magtrol.com/support/motorpower_calc.html

Even Yamaha's own website published the maximum supported RPM's for each motor. PW (100 RPM), PW SE (110 RPM), and PWX (120 RPM). In the US, the PW has 3 assist levels. However, Europian models have 4 assist levels for PW and PW SE. Five assist levels for PWX.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Court also commented how his cadence is limited (100 RPM max) which supports the torque curve chart above of zero assist at 100 RPM (actually it starts to fade from 80 RPM until it's all gone at 100 RPM).

The PWX has torque increase from 70 to 80NM and maximum cadence assist increased to 120 RPM. But the 80 NM torque starts to drop from about 65 RPM all the way to 120 RPM by then, there is already zero support.

You can skip to 16:32 of the video if you want to see the actual ride review of the PWX.

Here, at 0:55 portion of the video, Yamaha would make us believe that it would kick dirt from a dead stop (zero cadence).

ADDENDUM:

I stand corrected on the torque curve at low assist level.
View attachment 19474
That yellow curve is a wrong representation at low assist level. Yamaha (as well as other major mid drive brands) uses "proportional assist" that samples the rider's input torque every thousandths of a second (millisecond) and multiply it according to the assist level (50%, 100%, 190%, 280%, and 320% ). The torque curve can be any shape depending on the rider's input at any given cadence.
View attachment 19475
However, the output is limited up to a certain maximum level. Here, the maximum power the Yamaha can produce at different rpm is represented by a green curve. Other mid drives are also charted for comparison.
View attachment 19476

For those interested, I have calculated, plotted and overlayed the indicative power curve for the Yamaha PW-X, this motor is significantly be better than the PW motor. The curve should also be comparative to the Giant SyncDrive Pro (with possibly slightly better figures).